Brain Trust: You've Got to Pay Your Dues!

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[00:01:54] This is a production of the Very Dental Podcast Network. It's the Very Dental Brain Trust. Very Dental people, welcome to an episode, a rebranded, new, improved episode of the Brain Trust. That's right, the Brain Trust is coming back, people.

[00:02:22] This is a first of what I hope will be many Brain Trusts. Joining me, Alan Mead, some of the OGs of the Brain Trust. Let's just start with Dr. Dawn Grimes. Dawn, how you doing? I'm awesome. Yeah, we knew that. I really didn't mean to do that. Dr. Melissa Zettler coming to us from her hotel room, actually. Coming to my bed, Alan. You know. A rented bed.

[00:02:50] And finally, Dr. Frank Clayton. Frank, how you doing? Hey, how are you guys doing? I'm doing well. Good. Very good. So, some of the OGs of the Brain Trust. Now, why am I calling it a Brain Trust? Because I kind of want to start bringing this back. This is what everyone loved about the Dental Hacks Podcast. We did, remember? Okay, so just a quick review. We used to do a very long episode, like one episode a week, and it would have an interview.

[00:03:15] It would have half of an interview, and then it would have half of a Brain Trust where we'd get like a round table of regular dentists talking about stuff. And everyone kind of hated it, and it was a ton of work for me to edit all that stuff. But for some reason, that's what I thought we needed to do as a podcast. So, it was like, it was tons of editing, and then Jason and I would have all sorts of banter and stuff. Anyhow, so we kind of, the Brain Trusts were sort of hard to put together.

[00:03:41] And so I kind of got, but everyone loves the Brain Trust because it's, our point is like, let's just get a bunch of regular dentists talking about a topic. Well, for the Seinfeld of dentistry. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It was unpredictable. You never quite knew where it was going. And thus, yeah, it's pretty good stuff. So, some of the OGs, we've been talking a bit, we've been trying to make this happen for several weeks actually. And I've put you guys off for several reasons. Now we're here. We're all together. So, welcome back to the Brain Trust.

[00:04:10] Is everyone feeling okay out there? Yeah, and it's Donkey Day. It's Donkey Day. Did you know, Melissa tells me it is, is it national or world? It's National Donkey Day. National Donkey Day. And I didn't even tell, I, yeah, I haven't even told Floyd. He missed it. It's dark out now. So, it's too late. We missed it this year, Floyd. Sorry. All I know is it's very late. It's my bedtime. Yeah, I know. We're recording. We are the old OG, Don.

[00:04:37] It's like 10 after 9 Eastern and all of us are fading fast. The timer is going. This is very real. So, okay, we wanted to talk about, I have a whole bunch of things I want to talk about, but all of us are practice owners, correct? Just so we're going to set the stage. So, everyone kind of knows we're all practice owners. We all, we all graduated. Three of us graduated in years that started with a one. Oh, not me. Not me. The 1900s.

[00:05:06] Yeah, the 19, we were, three of us graduated in the 1900s. That's right. Not me. And Don, Don is the youngest of us. When did you graduate, Don? 2002. Yeah. So, you're not that much younger. So, barely over the border. Yeah. Nice try. Nice try. So, and Frank, you were 1998, right? 99. Yeah. 99. Okay. Oh, okay. Young buck there. That, that. You were a non-traditional student though, weren't you? You were like, you were like the old guy in dental school. How much older were you than the rest of the dental students when you were there?

[00:05:36] Uh, like four or five years. Okay. Not, not too much. Not bad, but. You could probably pass. See, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Melissa, you were, you were, uh, you graduated, you were at Minnesota with me, but you were, you graduated in 1995, right? Six? 95. Four. I am the oldest in the group. Rub it in. Well, you were a senior. I think when I was, if we do the math, I graduated in 97.

[00:06:03] So you were a senior when I was a sophomore, but we both were Cy Omegas. Uh, I lived at the house for several years at the university of Minnesota. And do you remember the house, Melissa? I do. Those are fun parties. I love me a good walk. That, uh, that, that house was, that house was, uh, probably should have been condemned. It was, it was not good. Probably still condemned. It was, uh, it was, uh, the price was right. I'll say that it was awful. I don't, I maybe it's better now. I'm not, I don't.

[00:06:31] I've never been in a frat house that didn't look like it should be condemned. Yeah. No, I. They're all. That's true. But the Cy O house at Minnesota was co-ed. I, that was kind of a wild deal. The whole, the whole, it was co-ed. Like it was not co-ed, but like it was co-ed. Yeah. We had two showers in the upstairs bathroom and there was oftentimes a lady in the other shower. Let's just say that. I remember going in, there was two toilets. So it was like toilet counter with the sink toilet on the other side.

[00:07:01] Like you're just supposed to use the toilet with other people. I just remember my dad was like, I think you should live here. And I was like, Nope. You were, you were the wise one. I was, I was treasurer for two years that I lived there. So it knocked 50 bucks off the $200 a month price to basically live in downtown Minneapolis. My parents liked it cause it was cost effective. There's no doubt about that. Yeah. But in any case, I don't even quite know how I got.

[00:07:29] So we are old is what my point being is that we're, we're old. Did you walk uphill in a snowstorm? I did. Oh yeah. I mean, well, we went to university Minnesota. We walked uphill in a lot of snow. I was going to say, you're from Minnesota and Michigan. Yeah. Well, and you probably remember you parked your car at the side. They asked me to stop. Yeah. Why? Because I drove a station wagon and it took space. Okay. We had, we had a good parking lot though. Our parking lot was better than the Delta SIG parking lot. It was.

[00:07:59] Uh, I'll, I'll die on that hill. So anyhow, so we were, we're old. We are now all practice owners and we have had experiences. Experiences. Let's just say that we've had lots of experiences in my point. I guess what I want to bring up to you guys is, is like, I'm completely wrecked. Every day I think to myself, I need to get off social media and every day I don't get off. So every day I tell Alan to get off social media. Yeah. I have done.

[00:08:26] I have this conversation constantly and I, I still, I'm like, stop looking at that stuff. It's going to ruin your self-esteem. And meanwhile, I'm like, Oh my God, look at that stuff. Yeah. But the only reason I know about that stuff is because of Alan. He sends it to me. Otherwise I would never know it was out there. Yeah. I, I'm spreading, spreading the misery here. Now, if you remember 23 years ago, I, I was able to quit opiates. I can't quit social media. I can't do it. I want to, it's terrible for us.

[00:08:56] How do you feel about social media, Frank? You said you're awful quiet over there. Uh, that's a powerful addiction. Social media is, it is, you know, it's a good thing. Um, but when overused, it's a, it's a bad thing and it's destroying society. Yeah. You know, plain and simple. I'm kind of convinced that a lot of the, the, the troubles that we have today that seem like new troubles are because of social media.

[00:09:23] Like when you look back, you're like, we never had to deal with this when I was in school. Yeah, we didn't because they didn't exist. I did have an email address at the university of Minnesota. So that's a, that, it gives me an idea. I had a, I had a, uh, a university of Minnesota email address. I don't think I did. Yeah. You probably did, but not a lot of people didn't. You had to go to the computer lab to use it. Yeah. So that just dates us. Like if you were really big into it, you might've had a, a floppy disk for AOL. I'll bet Frank had some AOL.

[00:09:53] Don't mock that AOL stuff, Alan. Yeah. Yeah. I'm telling you, my parents still have an AOL email address. Really? But that, but I mean that just to give people an idea, that's where, you know, like I could dial in from the SIO house on a 1200 baud modem, uh, to get my email if I wanted to. That's how, that's how cutting edge I was. You're a baller. Yeah, I was. Wi-Fi didn't exist. I'm just helping our listeners understand what we're talking about here.

[00:10:22] Wi-Fi, no such thing. That was revolution. You had to go in the file cabinet and pull out the old tests. Yeah. Yeah. Like just downloading them. You had to like scroll through the file cabinets. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Frank, were you an old test guy? Were you, were you like the, were you like the old test dealer? I wasn't the dealer. We all had it, uh, passed down through our like big brother. Big sister. Yeah.

[00:10:49] And some were better than others, but nobody shared because they were backstabbing people. Yeah. We had someone from our class join SIO, come in and raid the old test file and stole them all. Shut up. I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. Someone from my class. I'm not going to say who it is. Ooh. Why not? She's dead. She died. Like literally. Not because, not because of the, no one killed her because of the tests.

[00:11:17] No one killed her cause of the test, but that was, that was the rumor. She had old tests. It was, she didn't take all of them, but she took, uh, she took, you know what she took? She took the fixed pros ones from Lua. That's what she took. And I thought law school was cutthroat. My husband said people used to go and rip pages out of the law books and put them back. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of what it was, but the bottom line is it's when, when you were looking at old tests, you were looking at physical old tests. The other trick was each person had to like, uh, memorize like four questions on the test.

[00:11:45] So you could reconstitute the test after we took the test. Remember that? Yes. For the professor to write an original new test. Yeah. Yeah. That was the thing. The professors did not want to write anything new. No, they would just rearrange the questions. That was my experience. They would just rearrange the questions, but they were pretty much always the same. Did you guys have a note co-op? Cause we're old and we, they didn't like necessary. You probably had to buy, remember we, we go to Kinko's and we'd buy the big, the giant packet for each thing.

[00:12:13] And then they would, they would always put a textbook or two that you never used, but you know, they're like $400 a piece. And yeah. So that's what they did. I, now I think probably they probably just send you their slides, their, their PowerPoint slides. The other kids probably just set their phones up and hit record. Yeah. Sure. Or maybe they just don't go to class. They just watch it on YouTube. Yeah. I was a scribe and I recorded on a cassette tape thing. Yeah. And then transcribe it. Yep. And then I would go home and I would type it. Yep.

[00:12:43] We had, we had a note co-op where you would, did you have that Melissa? We had a note co-op. And so you were assigned a couple of lectures a semester that you were in charge of it. So you'd have some crappy notes and then everybody would gang up on them and bully them. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you know, you know who took the worst notes of all time in my class, Melissa Bart. He took the worst notes of all time. I can, I, I'm perfectly fine saying that Bart, come at me, bro. Bring it. Bring it. He actually like, he actually, he actually drew like a little stick figure of an articulator,

[00:13:13] like saying, this is an articulator. I'm like, gee, thanks. That was really helpful. Who is the guy? Bart, he's my, he's one of my best friends from dental school. He's been on the show before, but he was, he, he was, uh, admittedly not a good note taker. We should have booted him off. And I quit the note co-op after third year. Cause I could type faster than they could write. And I had a laptop. That's how nerdy I was. Oh God. Oh yeah. Bad memories of that shit. So anyhow, I just, I guess I'm, I'm reveling in the fact that we're very old.

[00:13:39] Things are very different now and social media didn't exist than it does now. And I think that, um, younger dentists can get an idea that dentistry is something different than it actually is. If you don't feel crappy enough, then you go on social media and you see these like fantabulous things and you're like, what's wrong with me? Like, I'm just trying to make my overhead. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:08] Overhead is not something that I think a lot of these, these younger dentists maybe understand that much about. Maybe. I don't think so. We do. I have to, I have to tell you, I've not, I've not, uh, I've not tried to hire an associate. I've not worked with an associate. I've heard some stuff. Uh, I think there's a lot of expectations for, uh, what they're going to get paid. I have somebody starting this in mid July. What's that? I have somebody starting this one day a week, mid July. Okay. Okay. How are you, how are you feeling about that?

[00:14:38] I'm so excited. He just finishing his residency. Like everything about him is shiny and new. He like wants to learn. He's energetic. He like makes me want to be a better person. Oh, that's, that's good. That's amazing. I know. How'd you find that? Um, so he went to St. Olaf, which is where I went to college and he reached out to me while he was still an undergrad. And then we've just kind of kept in contact all through his undergrad and through dental school.

[00:15:04] And, um, yeah, I would love if I could support him more than one day a week, but he'll be somewhere else. Um, the other days with me one day. And, um, I'm like, God, I better get my crap together because like Callan needs me to like get my shit together. What, uh, what kind of residency is he in? GPR out in Maine. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Interesting because like we've, um, Todd's read like multiple contracts for him over like

[00:15:33] the last year, trying to help him understand what they mean. And so we've got a sense of like what people are offering and, um, what's out there. And it's very interesting. It really runs the gamut. All right. Tell me more about that. Just, you don't have to get, give me details. But like what, what kind of, for associate, he's looking for associateships, right? So it runs the gamut anywhere from like, some of them are paid on adjusted production. Some are paid on collections. Some pay a percentage of the lab bill.

[00:16:03] Some include the lab bill. One of them, um, adjusted production includes taking off credit card fees and min care tax where other ones don't. Like, it's so interesting. Like, cause I've never had to deal with this. So it's just interesting reading it and seeing like what's out there, the guaranteed minimums per day. Um, how much vacation time they had. Do they get paid vacation? How do you pay a, uh, a production based employee for vacation? Like this is a thing, right?

[00:16:33] Like, cause Minnesota has. We pay our hygienists. Right. But they're not production based employees. Typically. Huh. They're producers. They're producers, but they're typically paid an hourly wage. No, for sure. Typically. But if you're guaranteeing them a minimum, what are they guaranteeing these docs as a minimum? So he's being offered anywhere from 75 to about $80 an hour guarantee for the first

[00:16:57] six months at different places, which I think is pretty reasonable for somebody with basically no experience. Um, hygienists are getting that by the way. I was just going to say. Yeah. I was about to say the same thing. Yeah. Well, you know, the, but then it's like if his percent is greater than that and he'll get the greater person. Sure. He's going to paid more. Yeah. So, okay. So as, as an employer, let's go ahead. I'm sorry. I don't see why you couldn't offer that person paid time off.

[00:17:27] I'm not saying you should, but I'm just saying that somebody who's paid on a percent of production for their. Well, if you're paying them a minimum hourly wage or a minimum daily. Yeah. That's just. Most places that's just been like six months. Oh, they're only doing that for six months? Meaning they're only offering that to them for six months? The guarantee for most of these places has been about six months. Yeah. And then after that, they're on their own. Yeah. They go to production.

[00:17:55] No, because we kind of live in an eat what you kill profession, right? I think we should. You know, I, as an associate, I remember being an associate and it was at the time I hated the most, which is why I'm an owner now. And, you know, I don't know, but I don't have any delusions about what that situation was like. And I would say that I, it's a very hard thing as an associate, especially because I was in a situation like your associate was where I was, you know, piecemealing a week together.

[00:18:25] So I was at one place two days and another place one day. And then the owner doctor would say dumb shit to me, like you aren't filling your own schedule. It's like, well, I'm not here. I'm here one day a week. I don't know what you want me to do with that. You know, so that eat what you kill. I think sometimes, yes, that's true, but it depends on the situation because at one day a week eating what you kill, that's going to be hard. And by that, what I mean is like, as in general, not specifically to this person, but as dentists

[00:18:54] in general, like you only make what you can produce, right? Like as an owner, if you're not producing anything, you're not getting paid. But now certainly as an employee, you owe them something better. And I am like a hundred percent invested in making sure that this person is successful to the best of my ability. Oh, I believe that. I want their success. I really do want their success. But then it's like, well, where is that line between what works for the business and what

[00:19:23] works for them? Like how much CE do you pay for? How much CE don't you pay for? Like, do they get paid time off? Don't they get paid time off? Because they're, yeah, I don't know. Well, they're an employee like any other. You're going to come up with a benefit package that makes sense to you. Yeah. You set a dollar amount on CE. You know what I mean? They're just an employee like any other. But that's the part they hate. The other thing, Michigan and Minnesota. They want the benefits of an employee, but they also want you to treat them like a fellow owner. It's a very tricky thing. That's exactly right. Yeah.

[00:19:52] So we've got these new laws in Minnesota and Michigan too, where it's, there's a, you don't really get a choice as far as giving paid time off. There's like required, but it's a, it's a minimum amount, but it's. So you know what I learned that was kind of interesting. So as we're reading some of these contracts for this individual, what we learned after researching, cause we read in one of the contracts and my husband was like, I don't think that's legal. He's like, I'm going to research that.

[00:20:16] And so when you are a production based employee in Minnesota, you only have to pay them. They're safe and sick based on minimum wage. Okay. Which it's like, really? Like a hundred dollars an hour. What? That's in that's, that's the, that's the rule in Minnesota. Yeah. I guess they're not guaranteed a minimum. You know what I mean? Like it sort of makes sense in a weird way because they're only making a commission so

[00:20:46] to speak. That's wild. All right. So, so I guess we're, we're sort of all over the place there, but the bottom line is what do you think about procedures that, that a new dentist should like, you'll, you see a lot of, um, first off, I don't want to completely derail us from where we were, but like you hear, you see and hear people saying, I can't believe my, my owner doc won't let me do any of these procedures. I want to be doing the implants. I want to be doing, and I'm thinking to myself, can you do them?

[00:21:15] Can you, can you do fillings? Can you do like, I mean the, the amount of clinical, I don't care. Come at me, bro. The amount of clinical experience these kids have coming out of dental school is next to nothing. A GPR would be a very different animal. This, this, your, your person knows some stuff. We'll know some stuff, probably some surgical stuff, honestly. But the reality is they still don't have a ton of experience. And so the, the, the question is, I mean, one of the things that's awesome and terrible

[00:21:45] about being an owner is you got to do what comes in the door or you got to figure out how to get it done. If you're not going to do it, um, you know, get crap done. Like we're going to do it together. Yeah. I think as an owner, part of the reason I would want someone else is to do the shit I don't want to do anymore. Cause I've been doing it for 25 years. So it's their turn. Sure. And I also feel like as an owner, it is my right to tell the employee, these are the things we are hiring you to do.

[00:22:12] And if you don't want to do those things, then you should find somewhere else. Not bitch about me on Instagram. Do you know what I mean? We're going to go right. We'll read you, Don. What? Oh no. But that's, that's what's crazy. Right? Like, it's like, I think that there's a weird thing that's changing about the dynamic of employment. You know what I mean? I mean, like a job description. Like there's no reason I couldn't write a job description for an associate that says

[00:22:40] you're going to do all of the class three restorations. The scut work. Let's be honest people. That's what we're talking about. But those are the things that are the hardest. The reason I don't want to do them anymore is cause they're freaking hard and I'm tired and I don't want to do it anymore. My back hurts. You know? Well, one of my friends was in charge of the pediatric dental department at HCMC. And she said that the residents actually like review her. And like, it's a lot of pressure.

[00:23:06] Like as they review, like as a, she's like, Oh my God, it's like, they don't want to like do things. And now I get a bad review. That's the same with dental school instructors. Our friend is a dental school instructor. I would have loved to review dental school. Oh, I was reviewing them all the time in the back room. I would have had, I, I was not much of a skillset I had in dental school, but, but being critical and in writing nasty things about instructors, I would have had that figured out. That'd been great.

[00:23:35] So Frank, I'm not going to beat you up too much. You, you have an associate right now, so I'm not going to ask any specifics other than the fact, how do you feel about the, the procedure? I mean, does your associate want to do lots of stuff? Do you, do you kind of work with the associate? What do you, what's your experience been? And have you worked with other associates? I can't remember if you've had other associates. Yeah, I've had an associate.

[00:24:01] Here's a unique part about mine in that, um, you know, I'm, I'm headed out. Um, I'm cutting down. And what I told this associate, uh, she's practiced for eight years. She's wonderful skillset. Great. Oh, she's not a new, but okay. I didn't know. No, no, no. She's not new. Um, I look for two years to find someone. Mm-hmm. And when I found her, I said, how much work do you want to do?

[00:24:26] And she goes, as much as you can give in the past six months, um, out of my office production, I do 10% and she does 90. That's awesome. Um, so I give her everything, uh, a $7,000 two unit implant impression for 10 minutes of your time. Hers. So again, we've talked about communication. It's very important to communicate upfront.

[00:24:54] Well, just like Dawn said, yeah, you're going to be doing the Scott work. If you don't like it, don't sign up here. Just like a patient. Yeah. You can have a job description. They're an employee like any other. They have a job description. That's it. You know? So with her, it was very clear what was going to happen. You're going to have as much work as you can handle. And it's great. Let me tell you, I don't get paid any money for it, but I love it. I love, uh, just watching somebody else do it because I know how hard it is and she can

[00:25:24] be rewarded and she should be. So that part is great. I love every bit of that. That's awesome. Yeah. Like what's that? Where did you find her? Um, the company that bought me out, uh, is an always in contact recruiting. And I had asked them if they would help find me someone like that was a, uh, culture match and personality.

[00:25:54] And they were right on this one. They were very right. They said we have someone. Um, but I had before I'd done everything indeed. I go to, you know, dental meetings, network, everything, but I met, uh, her through them. So they had basically preselected and said, we want you to work at one of our offices. Uh, we think Frank would be a good fit. And it turned out it was a great fit. That's fantastic. Yeah. That's so good. That's really good.

[00:26:23] That's really, all you guys have said something to my daughter. Your patient's seeing this person because you know, they're well cared for. Yeah. Some of them balk. Um, but surprisingly about 95% know that she's highly vetted just like our employees and we've cared over the years and they know that. So they know that. Well, if, if Frank and staff vetted her, um, they're not going to just put anybody in and they're right.

[00:26:51] So they're much more accepting of her, I think than an office that didn't care as much or, you know, a solo doc in the community for 25 years kind of thing. That culture that you are talking about and the fact that they know your team, they know you, and basically a lot of the, a lot of the patients feel they know you well enough to know that you wouldn't bring someone in that, that wouldn't fit right.

[00:27:16] That's, that's something that that's a really hard thing to, to, to put a value on, but it is definitely, but I had a conversation this morning or this afternoon. So I have a relatively new hygienist who is actually, I gotta say fitting in quite well. Um, in like one of the patients that she was seeing today. I mean, I, she's one of those patients that I basically have done a full mouth rehab over the years on her. Cause we've, we just done a lot of restorative work and it's actually holding up quite well. And she's, I've seen her forever.

[00:27:45] I, she's one of my favorites. I mean, she was in, in my hygienist was commenting how she had started in this practice. She had, we had like an old chart out and it was like 1977. I'm like, yeah, that was before me. And, and I said, yeah, she was here when I came here, Kim. And, and so we started laughing about that. And she said, oh yeah, I remember when you were first here. I remember I told you, I said, I'm not sure I'm coming back. So you hit me with your best shot. Cause she was expecting to see the old dentist and no one even told her she just showed up and I was no seriously.

[00:28:15] Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. This was, this was, this was the guy I bought my practice from, uh, up and left and just up and left, like called in to his team and said, I'm not coming in anymore. I'm done. You're not. Why? And so the, what was that based on? Well, there's a lot of, well, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly he was, uh, let's just say there was, uh, some illicit

[00:28:44] stuff going on. There has to be some driving factor for someone. Well, and it wasn't, it was maybe, maybe allegedly drugs or making, no, no. Allegedly bookmaking perhaps. And so, so he was sort of famous for when it was sunny, when it was sunny outside, he'd go golfing and he didn't care about canceling patients. So he was pretty, and he was, he was a patch guy. He did, he did patching. Um, he was, he was, everyone loved him. He was a local kind of a sports hero.

[00:29:13] Uh, I think he had the capacity to be a pretty good dentist. He was really good at surgery. He could take teeth, he could slick teeth like no one's business, but he didn't like doing a lot of restorative dentistry. So there's a lot of restorative dentistry for me to do. I'm not going to go too much more into that. There's, there's a backstory, but this is also the same guy. I remember I bought my practice for $87,000. Yeah. So, uh, and I mean, it was one of those things where he was out the door. Like I came in months after he quit his team found me cause they wanted like his team was keeping the office going.

[00:29:42] Cause he was out of there, which is quite a way to do it. So essentially I bought my practice from a dead guy, except he wasn't actually dead. He just wasn't there and wasn't particularly interested in dealing with anything. So, which is a good way to get a practice. Uh, the practice has done fine for me. I did every bad habit that dude had. I got, and I probably learned, I probably still have some, but there's some fantastic patients. Anyhow, the patients loved him. They must've loved him enough to cut him some slack and give me a try. So this woman said, yeah, I came back to me.

[00:30:12] I was just, I mean, 27 years later, we just did a recall on her. And I, you know, I've done a ton of work on herself. Great, great person. I did. Okay. Considering, but that culture of an office where people know you well enough to kind of trust your judgment on that. That's a big deal. Yeah. And I wonder if there's practices that don't necessarily have that. There's a lot of practices that don't have it. And we're all so blessed that we do have that.

[00:30:39] I mean, like a corporate place wouldn't have that, right? Like the place down the street that's got a different dock every three weeks. No. They don't have that. That can't maintain it. But there's a lot of practices that have been bought by corporate places that are, yeah, like an Aspen or something like that. That's just a branded. And I got to tell you, I hear people say, I can't believe, you know, I don't even know who my dentist is and all this stuff. And I'm thinking to myself, why would you go there? Right. If you feel that way. Because they take my insurance. If you feel that way. Yeah, probably.

[00:31:07] And I mean, that's their choice, I guess. That's their choice. But like what an awesome thing that like you know these people for 27 years. And in 27 years, they've seen you through a marriage, through children, through addiction, through all sorts of crap. And you're their dude. You're their dude. And like we all have people who are like, you're my person.

[00:31:35] And sometimes it's not the experience that it was the last time. But I trust you enough to know that you're my person and that you have my best interest. And like I'm coming back. Like a blessing. It is a blessing. But on the other hand, on the other hand, there are patients that I would have bet early on that would be with me forever. That I've literally, this is the best. You ever think about those patients? Whatever happened to someone? They love me and then they're gone.

[00:32:04] They dropped my ass in 2005. I just haven't thought about them that long. But the good news is, I haven't thought about them that long. I mean, I remember them a little bit. But like them being gone, it sort of stings 17 years later or whatever from 2005. I can't believe they didn't stay with me. But I didn't even remember. I didn't notice. So I must have enough stuff to do that the ones that left, it does bug me. But I'm also like, eh. I think I'm kind of like Frank where I'm to a point where like, I don't, it doesn't bug me that much anymore.

[00:32:33] But is there something younger and you're like, oh, I can't believe like they're leaving. And the older you get, you're just like, oh, well, okay. Bye. Go. Please go. Yes. 100%. Sorry, but sorry. But do you think that that's something that's maybe taken for granted? Because I think that this conversation started because Frank wanted to talk about people whining on social media about the owner docs that, you know, don't let them do whatever they want to do, whatever.

[00:33:00] But I think that they might be taking for granted that stuff as well. Like I've been in that office for 20 years, grinding away on people I may or may not like. It's not even a factor. But building their trust, you know, building trust in me. And then now this person comes in and they're like, I just want to do high dollar procedures. It's like I spent 20 years building these relationships. These people let me touch them when I was 28 years old, which is so insane to me.

[00:33:26] Do you ever look at a young person that's like the age you were and you bought your practice and you're like, someone let me touch them when I looked like that? You're like a crazy thing I think about our profession is like, this happened to me twice in the last month. It's like, okay, so I have an aesthetic consult. I love aesthetic dentistry. And so I would like to do some 3D printed veneers just because I think it would be fun to do. And so I lay out for these two people, here's your options. We can do them in porcelain. We can do them in composite.

[00:33:56] We can do them 3D printed. Both times the person has said, tell me about the 3D printed. I'm like, well, it's fairly new on the market. You can expect about five year shelf life. They look very nice, but you're going to have to replace them sooner than you would a porcelain veneer or something. And I don't have a lot of experience with a 3D printed veneer. But if you want to do it, like I'm confident we can do a nice job and we can make that happen. Both times they've said, yeah, let's do it.

[00:34:25] You just heard me say I've never done it. And you're like, they trust you. But they trust you. It's hilarious. But it's been that way. Think about it, Dan. Your whole career. Like, okay, somebody was my first implant. Somebody was your first this. Somebody was your first that. And they just say, okay. And it's like, oh my God, you trust me and know that I'm going to do my best for you. It's like the craziest shit. Like you were. Right. But that didn't happen automatically.

[00:34:52] Like I went through the, have you ever done this for four years? So this is why I say is I know my face has aged. Not because I see it when I look in the mirror. I have this delusion that I look the same as I did 20 years ago. But I know it has changed because no one asks me that anymore. No one ever says, have you ever done this before? No one ever says that anymore. Not anymore. So this is a problem now. Yes. But you're right. I've done some things.

[00:35:20] I was complaining to Alan about this the other day that like I have this case going on right now. And I don't like I'm making myself nuts. I'm trying to help an old person who he's like my dad's age. And he has some serious issues and I'm just trying to make it work for him. But it's so much work for me. And I'm like pulling my hair out. And I'm like, why am I doing this? But it is. It's because you have these relationships with these people and they trust you. And I told the guy the same thing. I go, this is expensive. And I don't know for sure that it's going to solve the problem that we have.

[00:35:50] But it's the best thing I can attempt. My entire morning was that today. I told you about it. My entire morning was that today. It's going to work, but I'm going to do my best. But the guy was like, sure, let's do it. But he was like, sure, let's do it. I was doing herodontics on patients that I've known for 27 fucking years. And honestly, one of it was an absolute Hail Mary that worked. And I'm like, okay, so get to the parking lot and we'll see how we do. It was ugly. It was a long span bridge I shouldn't have done 15 years ago.

[00:36:20] And it lasted for 15 years. I'm like, man, we're lucky on this 15 years. Oh, and we're going to try and do more. But then the other one was, you know, one of the things where you're like, yeah, I'll just replace this crown. We did a little while ago. I got in there. I'm like, oh, this might not be a restorable tooth. And I didn't really say anything about it. You know, and these on anyone else, I'd say, you know, I tell them. But these are like, these are the people that were like you said, they were with me when I was when I was brand new. It's brand new. I feel like I owe it to them a little bit more.

[00:36:50] I don't say that to them. I probably should. But I also think it's so far out of your way for them because you're grateful for the years of trust. Definitely. And it's like, I will like bend over backwards. I will do my best for you. I will like make this work to the best of my ability. Like, I can't believe you've hung with me for 30 years. I sent one guy home. I sent one guy home. I couldn't get the impression on the crown. It was just too, I just mangled his tissue and all this stuff.

[00:37:19] And I was way behind. And I put him in a temp. I said, I'm sorry. I'm going to bring you back. We're going to get this done. But I just, I wasn't expecting this. And so I thought he was going to be hot at me. And my office manager goes, no, he's fine. He's happy to come back. And he's got, you know, he understands you want to get it right. And I'm just like, I felt bad. And of course I was, you know, this always happens when you've got two people out in the waiting room waiting for you and stuff like that. It's just a nightmare. But so my whole morning was sort of like that.

[00:37:48] And then I got in this afternoon. I got a guy coming in for a root canal on 19. And I opened the tooth six weeks ago. I couldn't find the mesial buckle canal six weeks ago. I'm like, you got to be kidding me. Like I, I, I, I instrumented it. It was fine. I'm like, well, let's bring them back and see if I can. And, and, and, um, I got a new little ultrasonic unit trough for it, found that fucker and filled it. It looks like a million bucks. I'm like another patient that was there before I ever got there.

[00:38:17] He didn't even know what was going on. I told him, I said, geez, I hope we can find this canal. He's been doing great. And I just think to myself, these patients are, they're going to just, I'm up in my head about it. And they're like, no, you're good. You know, it's, that is something you can't. Okay. That is what Don was saying. Why do I get to do these procedures on them? Because I earned it the hard way. I mean, really and truly.

[00:38:42] And in some cases by failing and screwing stuff up and having to explain myself and all this stuff. And that is something that a new dentist that's cranky about their owner dentist, not letting them do. They don't understand that there is. I mean, the reason that I'm, my hairline looks this way and I have gray hair and all is because I've been kind of putting in the hours. And guess what? You got to do it too.

[00:39:03] I mean, if you've got an associate, if you've got an owner doc like Melissa or Frank, you've got a huge leg up on the rest of young dentists. Because you guys can kind of, you guys can kind of pat them on the head and give them a little bit of magic that they wouldn't have on their own. That's for sure. But what if I want to come in and I want to do all on fours right away from day one, Alan? Well, that's the thing. Those are the ones on Instagram bitching and not actually working. You market it.

[00:39:32] You see it on Instagram. The young doc, two years, thinks he can come in there and just do that. The trust has got to be there before any of the skills, period. Just because you market for it or tell yourself you're the man or the woman a hundred times and then you believe it. If the patient doesn't, you're not going anywhere with that. So the quick fix, today's society is all the click and the quick fix. You cannot, I don't care.

[00:40:02] You cannot quick fix a relationship that is so the seeds for 20, 25 years like us and then re like us. Like the stuff you're saying now, you never would have thought 20, 22 years ago, anybody would have hung with you because you just did this or you were brutally honest. And back then you would have gone, fuck, they're going to leave. Now you're like, one, I don't care if you leave. Two, hang with me. We can be friends during this. Three, I'm not going to sweat this. Yeah.

[00:40:30] So the younger crowd wants to jump right in at like the eighth inning and do what we're all doing. What they didn't see was the seeds of investment. Yeah. And leave you with the mess. Which kills me. And leave you with the mess when it's fucked up. Because that's the other thing is it's like these cases, they're complicated. They don't always go like you want them to. And that kid's down the road somewhere else. Yes. No. Yes. Oh God. Yes. The simple stuff. Yeah. Don't even. The thing that should be the easiest is always the most complicated.

[00:41:00] The biggest growth in dentistry right now is revisions on all on four dentistry. That's for real. Yeah. Like revisions on on on full arch implant dentistry is the biggest growth. And frankly, it's also the biggest growth in what lawsuits is what. Oh, yeah. Because there's a lot of people out there doing this stuff. And frankly, they're not trained enough. Yeah. It's like. Yeah. In some of that stuff, you can't go back. You took all their alveolar bones. Yes. It's all gone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:28] That's one of the reasons I'm uninterested in doing it. Thank you very much. That's a lot of pressure. I mean, like it's bad enough if I get a call on the weekend because they've got a sore tooth. Like, yes, my jaw fell off is not something I want to hear on Saturday morning. I can't do that. I can't do that. So, yeah, exactly. But the reality is and in more power to you if that's what you want to do. But that's what you want to do. Go do it on your own dime. Go do it on your own practice. Yes. You're not doing it in my practice. You're not. You're not learning in my practice. You're worthy of doing that.

[00:41:57] Then show the world that you are. Go out there. Buy a practice. Borrow your two million dollars. Because that's what I did. I borrowed one point eight million dollars when I was 28 years old. You go do that. So I because the thing is about the school debt, because I think there's something about the young doc and the school debt and the whatever. Well, I had school debt, too. I'm still paying it. Still paying it. I paid probably half what they pay now, but I'm still paying it. So I had school debt and then I borrowed one point eight million dollars from a bank.

[00:42:26] I don't know what they were thinking giving me that money, but they gave it to me and I did pay it all back. So I paid it all back. But if you want to do that, then that's great. Go invest in yourself. Don't look to me. Don't want to do that. Yeah. I just don't want to take that risk. I just want to take Monday off. So I want you to come in and work on Monday. That's all I want. And if that doesn't work for you, go on down the road or go invest in your own practice and do all the crazy expensive dentistry you want to do. Yeah.

[00:42:56] And for the young docs that are doing that, more power to them. I mean, that's good. Good on them. Yeah. I mean, and I hope I hope that you're getting your reps quickly. So you've got that, you know, and I mean, honestly, Melissa, you got someone coming from a GPR. They know an awful lot more than I ever did. Like that's like like like that new dentist doesn't make me as nervous. Plus, they're willing to work with a mentor like you. That's a great deal. Yes. And I mean, you can you can do a scratch start as a new dentist if you want to. But boy, I feel like that'd be I mean, I don't know. I didn't have the stones for that.

[00:43:26] I wouldn't have the stones for that now for crying out loud. But more power to you. But you're not on social media complaining that no one's letting you do it on their dime. No, it's not. I'm not on social. I'm I'm on social media. You're on social media torturing yourself, watching people complain about stuff. Or or watching other dentists that do amazing things, showing showing I'm what I'm doing is I'm on social media comparing my insides to everyone else's outsides. That's what I'm doing. You know, I don't have that. It's true. Yep. We all do it. I know you don't have that, Dawn.

[00:43:56] I don't. You are amazing. But what I do have. So I when I see things on social media and again, we're all like we're getting this catered version of what's out there. Right. Yeah. So I see the stuff Alan shows me, which is mainly like people complaining or people being annoying. And I'm like, well, that's what they're putting out there for the world. If they think other people don't see it, whatever, you know, like they can live in their delusion. But what I see is. I have two words. Hygiene influencers. Sorry. Go ahead.

[00:44:22] I see crappy, very, very crappy dentistry that people are happy with at the end of the video. And that's what I'm tortured by. The number of hours I've spent like agonizing over like one little thing, like one little angle of an incisal edge I've like spent an hour on. And these people, they're getting like chiclets that are bright white, like whiter than I knew white could be. Like I didn't even know you could make white so white. It's so white. It's purple.

[00:44:53] And the people are so happy. They're putting it on rotten stubs. Like I have seen horrible, horrible dentistry done. And I'm like, you know what? I think about patients who I've done really nice work on and then they've come back complaining. And I'm like, where are those people in these videos? Oh, yeah. So that's what I see. I want to ask. I see crappy dentistry. I want to ask what the Instagram influencers are doing for the patient with, you know,

[00:45:19] like my patient that has the, you know, the long span bridge that I was stupid enough to do 15 years ago that has what? One abutment loose. One abutment sound is a goddamn rock. You know what I'm talking about. You know what I'm talking about. Like I want to know what the influencers do about that. Well, you never see a follow up. I never see any cast in the day it was seated. There's never a one year follow up. There's never a five year follow up. There's never a phone call an hour later saying it doesn't match something or other.

[00:45:50] Yeah. They don't ever, there's none of that follow up is ever happening. So you see the instant seat that looks night and day from what the, you know, mess was they started with. And then you see nothing else. It's crazy. So first off, I think I want to buy the domain rotten stubs.com. I feel like that'd be really rotten stubs. You know who I'm talking about. What I'm going to put on that. You know who I'm talking about. He's got videos. Oh yeah, for sure. What I, what I want to do is I want to, I want to take, I want to take a photography

[00:46:17] class and get really good at like the hot sex photography and only photograph like shitty rotten teeth. Like, like, like, have you seen people doing all those poses with like other people? And then like the people go and they like, like the husband and wife or the normal people will do it next to them. Or like one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, seven, eight, seven, eight, seven, I haven't seen that.

[00:46:42] I want to show, I want to have like, I want to see like the super sexy, like soft box photography with like the strawberry biting into like a horrible class four composite. That's got the, like the color is way off and not polished. That's what I want. I want, I want that stupid shit on, on regular real people. I'm going to make a post like that next week. This is my, this is my goal. Rotten Stubbs.com. You keep your eyes open for that people. It's probably out there.

[00:47:13] I mean, I, I can appreciate like, like what would be great is if you could get people to appreciate your photographic ability of horrible dentistry. Who's value in that? I could have done this, but it's dead. But what I did, instead I did that. Exactly. I feel, I feel like it would be like, it would be an amazing troll for all the people that get under my skin in dentistry. I just feel like, yeah. So I got to work on my concept here.

[00:47:42] All right, you guys, this was, this was great. This was what I hoped it would be. We've already gone, we've been going for 45 minutes here. So this is a, this is going to be fantastic. So to wrap up anything that we missed, Frank, did we miss anything? Did we talk about anything? I don't know. Not really. I'm an hour late for bed. I don't know. You're Jelaine. Yeah. I think Kramer. Yeah. I don't know if we missed anything. No, I think actually, I think this is a good conversation. I think, I think people, there's people out there that are going to be, if you, if you

[00:48:11] relate to this, go to the Very Dental Facebook page. All these people are there. We can, we can joke about it. And if you're a young dentist that's offended by the fact that I'm not letting you do all on four in my practice, I want to hear about that too. I mean, I don't have anyone in my practice that, but let's be honest. I'm in central Michigan. Dawn, when was the last time you saw someone doing an all on four? This is not happening. Clear choice down in Detroit. Thanks. Bye-bye. That's, that's, yeah. I've never done one and I will probably retire never having done one. And I am okay with that. Yeah. I'm feeling all right about it.

[00:48:41] It's a great procedure. It's a great procedure for the right person. Yeah, I, I, exactly. I'll, I'll stick, I'll stick with my, my rotten stuffs. So, uh, thank you much, you guys. I appreciate it. If you have any questions or comments for these folks, bring it, bring it to the Facebook page. This was a blast. I appreciate it. And if you have a, I'm going to start inviting people from the Facebook group to come on, uh, come on brain trust with me. Talk about stuff. Good idea. It's going to be fun. We're going to talk about rotten stubs all day. Rotten stubs. Yeah, exactly. All right. Very good. You guys will talk to you again soon.

[00:49:12] See ya.