Very Clinical: Failures and Last Case Bias with Dr. Kevin Donlin

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[00:01:30] This is a production of the Very Dental Podcast Network. Welcome to the Very Clinical Podcast, brought to you by Zerk Dental Products. In about the time it takes to do an MO on three, we will entertain and enlighten you with tips and tricks for regular daily dentistry. Here's Kevin and Zach.

[00:01:55] What is up, Very Clinical listeners? And welcome back to another episode of the Very Clinical Podcast. This is Zach Miners coming to you from Kansas City. And with me, as always, I have my trusty co-host, Dr. Kevin Hare Fryer. Kevin, what's up, my man? Heyo, Zach. How are you? Yes. I'm good. I'm feeling good. Real good. Good. How is the power grid in Cleveland?

[00:02:19] You know what? They cut back some trees in my neighborhood, so we have not lost electricity in months, actually. Oh. Like someone had a neighbor complained. That's all it took was to cut back some trees. Your Wi-Fi has been very good our last few recordings, so, I mean, nice job. Yeah. We paid our bill. We're up to date on everything. It's going well. That's really good. That's super great. Super great. And as promised, we brought back Kevin Donlan from South Dakota. Kevin, what's up over there? Not too much, guys. Just enjoying the evening.

[00:02:50] Excellent. Kevin, you had a topic for us tonight before we delve into the clinical side. Good. We're climbing into the deep heart of winter, so we all like to get out and do something. So let's go around the horn and discuss our winter sports. Kevin D., you go first. How do we play outside in South Dakota in the winter?

[00:03:13] Playing with using snowmobiles. Currently got a couple older ones getting going for my kids, along with one for myself. So just kind of doing that because I live on a lake. And then maybe a ski trip to our local ski hill or to get the cabin booked. But I don't know whether I'll go skiing or not. Depends on my disability policy for that one.

[00:03:36] So every time I think of snowmobiling, like you've seen the video of the guy that's, of course, I'm going to send it. Yeah. Yes. I mean, are you doing some sick tricks, man? No. No. Send it guy? Yeah, these are older, mid-90s. These are just fun to mess around with cheap sleds just to have fun. All right. And your snowmobile out on the lake? Yep. That's awesome.

[00:04:01] It's frozen. Yep. We can go out on there. It's fun to cruise out on there. You can go as fast as you want to. Oh, you can snowmobile on the lake that's right next to your home? Yeah, my house is better. Okay. I can just go right on it. That is awesome. Man, that's cool. I would do that. Is that one of those lakes that freezes through enough that you can actually drive a vehicle on it too? Yeah, you can probably drive on it right now. They always say insurance companies will give you one vehicle to drop through the ice. They won't give you two.

[00:04:31] And in today's market, you definitely don't want to lose a vehicle. No. Yeah, people will probably start driving now on it, but it's probably a foot thick right now. God, wow. That's awesome. Wow. Huh. How about you, Kevin F? So, you know, we're skiers in our family. So I've got my ski trip planned out to Utah. We had to delay it into March. So it's going to be a little while. I thought it was going in February, but I'm going in March.

[00:05:00] We're going to hit up Park City and Deer Creek. I'm going to go wherever my son tells me I'm going to go. Just point me in the right direction. And I'll do some skiing in March. Nice. Does your son buy the Epic Pass? He buys the Epic Pass, so he has access to everywhere. Okay.

[00:05:24] I think there are some non-Epic resorts nearby, but they have some sort of trade-off where you can go, you know, like sort of as a guest. Are they limiting the amount of passes per day? Because weren't they doing that last year? Like a number of Epic versus full price? Yeah. They did. Things like that. They did limit. It didn't affect us last year on the weekend that we went, but they were limiting people.

[00:05:49] And it was there was like some COVID restrictions, which right now seem kind of funny based on what we're going through right now. But, you know, I just let him figure it all out. The great thing about that trip is he's got it all planned out down to the meals and all that sort of stuff. And I'm just the guest. And usually, I mean, we're almost all, all of us are the ones in charge of everything, you know, in our lives.

[00:06:18] And just to go with the flow and have him plan it all out. Grab cards and go. It's a treat. Absolutely. Kevin, so your son being a, you know, young, strapping young man, is he a snowboarder then? He is not a snowboarder. Okay. Because I taught him to ski when he was three or four. Okay. So his girlfriend is a snowboarder and is now learning to ski. So we had a big, there's been this back and forth about skiing and snowboarding.

[00:06:46] I thought she was actually pretty good on the board for just being one or two year into it. She did really good last year, but she wanted to learn how to ski. So she's going to do that. So, you know, we'll see how the next few months go till I get out there. And, you know, we'll see how she does. Yes. Very good. Let's see. This podcast, we're recording this in early January. It's going to be coming out in mid-January.

[00:07:13] I'm leaving to go to Beaver Creek to do a ski trip with my buddy. Sorry, not buddies, but my family. They're your buddies too. This Sunday. They are my buddies. Sure. This Sunday for four days out there. So I will be back from that by the time this show comes back. And hopefully it was great. And my ACL is intact and all that good stuff. And our local hill got off to a really slow start. They're just finally opening up this weekend. We usually go up there kind of on Sundays. It's only about 40 minutes away.

[00:07:40] And kids really enjoy that. All of our hill is owned by Vail and Epic, as you guys were talking about. And the good news is they're not doing that reservation system this year. So you can just kind of, if you have a pass, you can just go. That's great. Do the COVID staffing. They can only be open on Fridays and Saturdays here. So that's the whole thing. Staffing. That's an issue for everyone. They said that at the Hills in South Dakota. No, really? There's only two.

[00:08:10] Yeah. And they're both saying it's hard to get staffed, to get staffed up. I mean, because Terry Peake's the big one. Yep. And that one's having trouble getting staffed up and stuff like that. I mean, just it's hard. Seasonal jobs. I mean, how can you find someone for seasonal when anyone who's working on a seasonal job could easily get a full-time job at any of the numerous other places that are hiring? So I think that's why our place can only do weekends is because it's everyone's second

[00:08:39] job probably is that job. You know? Right. So it is what it is. Okay. We've got a clinical topic, almost more of a psychological clinical topic. Philosophical. Yes. Good. I stand corrected. Okay. We're done. That's it. That's it. So anyway, we were going to talk about kind of some anecdotal evidence, last case bias,

[00:09:07] influences on dentistry from social media sources, some of those kinds of topics. So Kevin F., why don't you kick us off and put us in a direction of conversation here? Well, I think that as we've talked before, as private practitioners, your practice is sort of like a science lab. Like you see things that generally work out well, you're following the instructions on the bonding agent and that sort of thing.

[00:09:37] And then sometimes things don't go so well and you scratch your head and you wonder what you did wrong or were you led to believe that what you did was the right thing to do when it really wasn't? You know, things that you could talk about are like, you know, fiber posts or some of the things we've talked about before, like CapTech crowns and that sort of thing.

[00:10:05] Um, so let's, um, let's talk about some of those things that have happened in our own practice and why, why we start to, to make some of the choices we do and, and how that all runs around in your brain. Uh, Kevin D., you kind of, you kind of, you know, were the inspiration for this topic. So I'll let you kind of start off with what you had in mind.

[00:10:32] Well, I think it's, you know, we're seeing it with, with the pandemic this week now pretty much become endemic, but there, the people on the frontline, they're kind of seeing the same thing. You know, even a internist treating every COVID patient in the hospital, in our major hospital system still would be suffering from first case bias in how, or last case bias and how

[00:10:59] to treat it because they really can, their sample size is never large enough to get a true, you know, data set that's, that isn't influenced by, you know, small changes in the data, small changes in the population pool causes a big, big change in the, in the outcomes. Uh, and we see that in dentistry, you know, newest bonding agent, uh, 3M and dense fly.

[00:11:25] It's an arms race of, of how they're going to cut color, the new bottle implant companies. I mean, guys switching implants from one to another, um, composite types, uh, endophiles. Sure. I mean, that's the, been the classic one arms race of, you know, this endophile will do better. You know, will it actually do better?

[00:11:50] Does anyone do enough for a canals to show that wave one is superior to, uh, crow taper next to, you know, we, we don't have a long enough follow-up even an adonis probably doesn't have a long enough follow-up and controlled for all the variables. Well, and also we've talked about this before that, um, so if I buy a $800 driver, am I going to hit the golf ball any better?

[00:12:18] It's, it's the guy swinging the club a lot of the time. So yeah, we're going to rely on some of these, um, you know, information about newer files and that sort of thing. But in the, at the end of the day, it comes down to the skill of the practitioner. But same thing, uh, buy new skis. Are you going to go down the hill any better or because you didn't work out in, from, you know, spring, summer, fall, and you're not in shape, your knees, your core is not strong enough.

[00:12:48] Is it really the skis? That's not allowing you to, you must've been, you must've been eavesdropping on our Christmas dinner conversation. Yeah. But they popped through Instagram. So you had to buy. Right. Exactly. So, but I mean, to even to double down on that, if you don't, if you don't stick with whatever choice you may on a product or a technique or a file system or an implant, like when do you hit the long run?

[00:13:16] Like you have to use something for probably 10 years, probably more than that, because you're not going to see the year one follow-ups until, you know, 10 years down the road. And so then it's very tough in one career. I feel like almost even to figure out like what works and where things are at. And I've started to realize that that's probably why like someone like my dad hasn't changed

[00:13:42] his composite or his bonding agents in like 25 years because he sees what works, it works for him. And that's, he just keeps riding that horse. And I, I can see myself falling into the same, the same rut. Like when something is working, it's tough to make any kind of a change, you know, in terms of products, materials, techniques, all those things. It's tough to figure out when to make a switch, especially when the companies, you're the beta tester for all the companies for all this stuff.

[00:14:12] Well, that in the companies, honestly, probably don't have the greatest, you know, research and in vitro versus in vivo research. Does, does it really transfer to the mouth? You know, you know, they're saying there's, you're seeing that in, in drugs coming out, you know, the newest drug for Alzheimer's treatment is 60,000 a year.

[00:14:40] It's supposed to stop amyloid plaque formation, but yet clinically it does not improve the outcomes for the patient and actually causes harm. So are we gaining anything or are we just spending money because Medicare Part D will pay for it? Hmm. So I guess for like Kevin, when you're talking like last case bias or, you know, a failure

[00:15:07] that you see that resonates to you, how do you decide between like this didn't work because it was a bad beat or this didn't work because, you know, user error or this didn't work because actually this product's letting me down. How do you, how do you triage that in your mind? I think you have to be honest with yourself. And most of the time it's, it's user error.

[00:15:31] I mean, the classic ones, the, the, the class four composite, the popped up class five, you know, is some implant with bone loss at the, the top one third, you know, why is it's typically the case selection, patient selection, not seeing something at the time of treatment that was there.

[00:15:58] They broke sleep apnea, you know, they're an 18 year old boy. They're going to break a class four composite because they broke the natural tooth, you know, things like that. Hey, it's Kate, the dental assistant. And it's time to get very clinical in this episode's very clinical corner. Are you ready, Dr. Mead? I'm ready, Kate. So do you know your supply spend percentage? Well, over the years, it's varied a little bit. It's probably been as low as 3%. It's probably been as high as like 12%. I suppose it depends on the month. Yeah. Well, 3%. That's excellent. Okay.

[00:16:28] Are you actually using every dollar of those supplies? I hope so because I'm also the guy that pays the bills and I know how expensive those materials are. So we got to use every single drop. Yeah. Yeah. Materials are expensive and they're also expirable. I don't even want to think about it because yes, of course, there's nothing worse than seeing expired materials in the office. Right. And I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I bet you're throwing away thousands of dollars of expired materials every year and you probably don't even realize it. How can that happen? We stock regularly.

[00:16:58] Materials that are improperly stored are at a higher risk of being misplaced or shoved to the back of a drawer. And then they succumb to the time-lapse monster and then unfortunately expired. That's typically what the problem is. So how can we improve the way we store things? You can start by identifying what type of material it is, procedure-specific or general disposables, and then allocate the appropriate space to store the backstock of each of those materials. I didn't really think about the fact that there's a difference in material types. Most people don't.

[00:17:25] So after that, you'll want to condense your active stock of procedure-specific materials into a procedure tub and then standardize the general disposables in the treatment rooms and then stock a week's worth of supply in each of those spaces. I'm getting my team on this right away. We aren't wasting another dollar on expired materials. Listeners, wasting precious dollars on expired materials can negatively affect your bottom line. Check out the show notes to learn how you can avoid throwing away thousands of dollars of each year. How about you, Kevin?

[00:17:51] How do you decide when you need to make a change or is it a bad beat or did you just have a bad day? How do you run through that triage in your mind? I think you have to have some successive failures in a row, particularly for a material. I'm thinking about... Like Captix is a good example. Yeah, this is probably the best example. It had to have taken a while to figure that out until... Yeah.

[00:18:20] Thank God we have things like Dentaltown and Facebook so that people can compare notes. Yeah. So, the Captix story, you know, once those started coming back in pieces or really failing bad, that was really the first time I was like, wow, I was really sold a bill of goods on this. And I really believed that this was the best thing I was doing for my patient. And it really wasn't. And I've replaced every single one of those and a lot of them for free.

[00:18:50] So, that's an example of time. You know, a crown prep is a crown prep for the most part. That was simply believing that the material was better than what it really was. Some of the things that Kevin is mentioning, you know, there are times, you know, maybe you didn't isolate the composite as well as you thought you did.

[00:19:16] Or, you know, for me, there's another thing of, you know, having some... A run of CEREC crowns pop off. Well, that was sort of buying into some non-retentive prep ideas and just going back to this is a traditional crown prep. I need parallel walls. That's really good. That plus adhesive dentistry is going to give me the best long-term result. You know, that sort of thing.

[00:19:45] So, I think we sort of flutter back and forth through things. And I see some things on Facebook now. And I think, well, that looks great now. But what's it going to look like in 10 years? It's probably not going to look like that great. Because I can tell you from my own experience, my own don't after 10 years. So, let's talk about that. Like, you know, like what... Because I think especially for a very young clinician, even like with less years, you know, doing this than Kevin D has over there.

[00:20:14] I feel like the Instagram dentistry and Facebook dentistry are becoming... If possibly the main ways that people were being exposed to different ideas, what are some of the dangers there? And I will start by saying that, like you said, almost all Facebook dentistry is zero day to like one year recalls. Yeah, we've talked about that before. The zero day, it looks great on the day. That's great. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:44] So, let's... Kevin, do you start off with that? Like, obviously, you're the youngest guy here. Like, tell me about like the influence that Facebook and Instagram dentistry is having on you and how you... The pluses and then minuses to it. You know, the very conservative, you know, as Kevin Fryer mentioned, the conservative bonded on, you know, restorations.

[00:21:11] Those are, you know, what we... You know, we all want to do that. But yet, we also do not want that patient coming back in six months, a year, two years popped off. I mean, at the end of the day. One and done. We want it predictable. And it's not that we're afraid of doing it. That's just, you know, we just... We want to... We don't want to be... You don't want to do 100 of those.

[00:21:40] And then in two years, you know, you're going to see that emergency patient show up crowning off. Yep. You know, and you're going to wonder, is it that 19 that I did? And you think when you did it, you did it by the textbook, by the protocol. Everything's perfect, you know, but, you know, time has, you know, time is the ultimate judge of our work. Yeah. And it's a noble thing to do. And...

[00:22:08] But, you know, even the conservative gold onlays are technique sensitive. But, you know, those hold the test of time. I just saw a couple that the previous... That the guy I bought out did on a patient. And they're probably 30 years old. And they still look fine to this day. Yeah. And they may have been cemented with zinc phosphate. You know, that's... Yeah. Probably. Maybe that or Duralon. They might have been early Duralon guy. I mean, that's probably what they were.

[00:22:38] Yeah. I mean, Dick Tucker still has the article in the Journal of Prosthetic Dentistry, 50-year follow-up. Yeah. I mean, I don't think we're going to see that with bonded on, you know, ceramics yet. So, you're really relying on the bond strength.

[00:22:57] And that is the weak link in the chain versus some 30-year-old PFM that comes through your practice that has literally been on there for 30 years with parallel walls and may have been put on with Duralon or zinc phosphate. You've got to disassociate yourself from what you're seeing on Facebook or Instagram and think, this has lasted this long basically because of a mechanical principle.

[00:23:24] So, if I have, quote, better materials, why can't I just use that same mechanical principle and also bond this thing in? And that, to me, is more of a belt and suspender thing of not having the patient come back than prepping some beautiful, very minimal prep that is solely relying on the thing being bonded on.

[00:23:49] And you're never going to see an Instagram account of crowns that have come off or bonded onlays that have come off. That would be a great account to start. You should get on that, Kevin, except for you don't have any of those anymore. Well, no, I could have in the past until I switched. But, no, so, I think that's one of the things, like, we're all talking here with, like, 10, you know, 10 plus years experience.

[00:24:17] At the end of the day, more so than, like, a few microns of enamel, like, someone not coming back because something works, that's really the ultimate, that's the ultimate success. The ultimate win, you know? 100%. I've never had anyone thank me for saving some enamel, you know, but I have had people say, you know, wow, it's really been 15 years since you did that crown. That's great. Still feels like, you know, just always been in my mouth, you know, so that's good.

[00:24:48] Yeah, I had a patient break a crown before break that I did in, like, 2000. You got 20 years out of this, 20 plus years out of this. Yeah. Porcelain broke, we got to redo it. You know, that's a win. No, and generally speaking, any sane person would feel like they got way more than their money's worth out of their crown. They get, you know, 20 years out of it, you know? For sure. For sure.

[00:25:19] Are there any Instagram accounts that have, like, long-term recalls? Is there a Dick Tucker of Instagram that actually shows, like, long-term work? Kevin D, do you know of any? Not that I know of. All of them? Um, no. Everything's same day. Everything's same day. No, I'd say there are some very good Instagram accounts. Oh, there are. Dental Tubial. Oh, my God. That guy should teach the materials for every dental school out there. Everybody. Yeah.

[00:25:45] It should just, like, no one should plug into him and then move off from there. Yeah. He's been a good friend of the program, for sure. Friend of the show. Great episodes. Yeah. Awesome. But, I mean, what he can distill down into manageable pieces, you know, he's kind of, like, taking the torch of, like, CRA, honestly. Yeah. In reality. 100%. Kevin, do you follow anything?

[00:26:11] Is there anything on social media dentistry that has helped you versus hindered? Like, tell us about. I was going to say, as far as posting long-term results, our friend Bill Strutt does that often. Yeah, he does. He's posting videos from the 70s or 80s. And, you know, we can go on and on about that. But, you know, it's there and it's real. So, kudos to him. I'm sure some of those conservative onlays have met a piece of taffy in their lifetime and come off.

[00:26:39] I mean, I don't know how that's not possible. But, yeah, you know, he's definitely recently shown some long, long-term results. Yeah. I enjoy looking at some of the fancier accounts. You know, I take it all with a grain of salt. I think I'm far enough along where, you know, I can sort through what's valuable and what's not. But, yeah, I like to look.

[00:27:10] Don't we all? Don't we all? I think the person I worry about the most with what I see on a lot of the social media dentistry is the recent grad. Yeah. And that or the dental student that flips through this kind of stuff on Instagram.

[00:27:32] I feel like they, especially if they're, you know, exposed to the wrong style of accounts, you know, ones that, you know, accuse like the BioClear people of being fraudulent. You know, those kinds of accounts. Like they can have some negative influences on those kinds of kids. I think for sure. The, you know, the other argument you could say is, you know, the shift of save a tooth, remove it, implant.

[00:28:00] You know, that world. I mean, you know, and it's hard. It's hard to say, you know, it's hard to say X, Y, Z, remove. X, Y, Z, keep. Some days you're kind of going on your gut. And, you know, what is the right answer? But, you know, because ultimately you want stuff to go the distance. Just like what you said. Sure. Crown failing in 20 years. No one's losing any sleep over that.

[00:28:29] That's just wear and tear in a hard environment. But, you know, when do you, you know, should you be quick to pull out and place an implant? Should you be quick to save it and keep it going? You know, because, you know, same breath with strep. You know, Danny Melker's the periodontist, you know, posts some long-term stuff and talks about it. So, and, you know, the only problem is they're kind of abrasive. Yeah.

[00:28:59] You know how they're trying to. I have been trying really hard when I, because, you know, it's one of the things as a dentist is it's tough. You know, it's tough to even keep a patient for, in a lot of cases, for 15, 20 years. Because insurance changes, they move. I've been trying to snap as many pictures as I can of, like, longer-term recall things that I've done for myself. Just to, like, give myself some positive last case bias.

[00:29:26] Like, oh, hey, there's something you did in 2003. You weren't even that good of a dentist then. And, hey, it's still working. So, you did something right. You know, it's nice for a pump-up to, like, take pictures of some of your own long-terms just for, you know, because it's so easy to focus on the failure. And you can really get down into a dark place when you only focus on the, you know, the callbacks that didn't work. You know, those are a bummer. For sure.

[00:29:55] And that's human nature. We have a bias for the negative comments or the person who doesn't like you and all that sort of stuff. That's normal evolutionary human behavior. But, yeah, I think you're right. I think that's a great idea to look at your wins, the long-term wins. Like I said, I've been trying to take some more pictures of those kinds of things. Those are the ones I need to post more of. It's like, are those? Because it's nice when you can say, like, hey, five-year recall, ten-year recall.

[00:30:24] Like, you know, the problem is usually a lot of some of the polish has come off of your, you know, ten-year crown or your ten-year veneer or composite veneer or something like that. It's not quite as shiny and nice as it was on day zero when all the rest of the people post their stuff. Right. Right. But it is tough to get those recalls. Kevin D., anything else you wanted to explore on this topic with the few minutes you got left? You kind of proposed this. Any avenues you want to hit?

[00:30:52] I think it's just always being just critical of the change and, you know, moving from one thing to another and just using good scientific principles of doing this. Because, yeah, we all are in our own scientific lab called private practice. But, you know. Break down for us. Like, when do you – how do you decide to, like, make a change of a material or a technique?

[00:31:19] Like, if you're going to switch something up, what does it take? How do you do it? You know, it usually takes a really good podcast, you know. Talking about, you know, bulkies, I guess, you know. God, that stuff's been so good to me. I love that. But, you know, then I'm getting a little confirmational bias because some guy's saying anecdotally, you know. It is anecdotally. I don't have anything to tell you except for, you know. Although, we did have the creator on at least. Yeah, you had the creator. But, I mean, he's got some bias.

[00:31:48] He's got some biases too. Sure. The creator. Sure. Well, if anyone comes out with, like, the fails, like, the next person that comes and tells me, like, they tried it and thought it was terrible, that's going to be the first person because no one's said that yet. So, I'm hoping – We need to get them on the podcast. We'll get them on the podcast. They can tell me that it ruined their entire practice. But that hasn't happened yet. Everyone's been pretty happy. So, I'm hoping I'm steering people in a positive direction.

[00:32:16] I do think the young practitioners out there, you need to be really, really careful of the new stuff. Yes. Because I've been burned. And I think, Zach, you've probably been burned too. I've definitely been burned. And I tell you, I early adopted on that bulkies because I wanted it to work. But I used it very slowly at first.

[00:32:38] I did not mention it once on our show or on a forum until I'd been using it at least 18 months to 2 years. Until I saw – I was like, oh, wow, these recalls are really good on this. I think things are going to go our way. And, I mean, ideally, you'd wait 10 years. But by then, they'll have – it'll be on bulk easy 3 or something like that. That's the other – 3.0. 3.0 or something like that. That's the other part of it. How about you, Kevin?

[00:33:05] Kevin, what – like, how do you – what makes you change gears on a technique or a product? Kevin? F. Kevin F. Sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah. At this point, I'm pretty stuck to what I have. And, you know, I'm so near the end that I probably won't incorporate anything new at all. Are we going to be here next week? Are we still going to – I'll be here next week.

[00:33:34] But we'll see about the week after that. I'm just kidding. But seriously, I mean, I've been through a bunch of material failures. The things I have right now, I can tell you right now the reason that things are failing, if and when they fail, it's me, not the material. So – And it's just me on a certain day. You know, certain set of criteria, certain patient, certain whatever. It's me. I agree with that.

[00:34:02] Like, you know, I wouldn't have said that seven or eight years ago because I was using a lot of things that my dad had just been using as legacy things. And there were some material shortcomings that I had because I had really done a lot of my own research. But what I have – like the lineup of stuff I have now, if those things don't work, it's me. Yeah, right. It's me.

[00:34:25] Because I've got the like – you know, when the class fours were going not my way, I did actually need a stronger composite than what I had. And that did make it – that made a big difference. When I had some posterior like sealant composites failing, I needed some amalgam or glass ionomer to make those areas work. So I wasn't getting isolation. So there are things – or I had the phase where some crowns were popping off. But then I looked at the preps.

[00:34:53] It was like, man, you thought the cement was better than it actually is. Like, don't do that, you know. So – All of those things. I think we all go through that cycle. I mean, know your materials. Know your file system or whatever it is. But ultimately, like we've said numerous times, like just know how to do the work, you know, and use the principles you are supposed to use. So, all right. Well, hey, Kevin Donlan, thank you for joining us.

[00:35:22] Thanks for conversing with us for this last hour. Thanks for having me. Kevin, you rock. We'll see you in a few weeks, right? Yep. Yeah. Next week. Next week for VOD. This weekend. This weekend. Oh, this weekend. Great. This weekend. From when this will be released on the 18th. Okay. This weekend. VOD. We will see you guys then. Perfecto. In Arizona. Assuming our flights don't get canceled. Right. I'll just – Positive thoughts. I'll walk back. Positive thoughts indeed. Get on the train, right? Something like that. Could do that. All right.

[00:35:51] For Kevin Donlan and for Kevin Friar, this is Zach Myers, and we thank you for listening. See ya.