Very Dental: 10 Years of Dental Hacks and Very Dental

[00:00:01] This is a production of The Very Dental Podcast Network. This is The Very Dental Podcast. Welcome to The Very Dental Podcast, where you'll find entertaining and relevant conversations with visionaries, clinicians, and your friends in the dental space. Now here's your host, Dr. Alan Mead.

[00:00:30] Well, hello and welcome to another episode of The Very Dental Podcast. Actually, it is a 10th anniversary episode of The Very Dental Podcast. And if you were here 10 years ago, you know that it used to be called The Dental Hacks Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Alan Mead.

[00:00:49] I'm waxing a little nostalgic today. I've been thinking a lot about 10 years ago. Actually, it's really funny. What's interesting to me is I... Honestly, I'm surprised how much I don't remember about when we started the podcast 10 years ago. I remember a lot of the basics, but

[00:01:12] I'm trying... I can't remember the exact day that we released the very first one. In my brain, it was the 14th. But as I look back on Google Calendar, I just don't have anything written down. It... In the next two months, apparently in August of 2014,

[00:01:32] we somehow started releasing on Wednesdays. Wednesday was the day we released. But I think before that, we weren't exactly sure what days we were gonna release and it almost felt like I was letting... I was

[00:01:47] putting episodes out as soon as I could edit them because I was really excited about it. I just... I remember a lot of... I remember, first off, Jason and I

[00:02:00] knowing that we wanted to do this, but we didn't really know how to do it. And there was... I remember that there was a lot of information about how to do it. Like you could... you could find out how to record. You could find out...

[00:02:14] But the reality is a lot of the tools that we use today to produce the podcast were not available. They didn't exist. It was really... so it was kind of hard to record remotely with people. We ended up using Skype

[00:02:30] to talk with people and a lot of times the quality of the recording wasn't very good and all that stuff. But yeah, so 10 years. 10 years podcasting. It's pretty exciting. What I'm gonna do is I'm going to play the very first episode of the Dental Hacks podcast,

[00:02:46] which I... as I listen to it, it's entertaining because we just didn't know what we were doing. It wasn't horrible. There... I mean there was... there was still a good conversation, but we just were so new at it and we were just... and I

[00:03:00] remember vividly the idea that we kind of had to fake it till we make it sort of thing. Like we just kept acting like we'd been doing it forever.

[00:03:09] But you know, we didn't really know how to record with people. We really didn't. So the sound quality wasn't so good. Although it got pretty good pretty quickly because I didn't want... I've always found it sort of a turn-off to have a bad sounding

[00:03:24] podcast recording. So we... we... we did our best on that and of course the tools that we use now to record are so much better than they were then. Anyhow. So our first guest was Dr. Lance Timmerman, who has been on countless times.

[00:03:38] Literally has his own podcast, started multiple podcasts, all that. So... But yeah, 10 years ago was when all this madness started. So I... I was gonna wax really nostalgic and talk about all kinds of stuff. And I think I just want to throw you into the episode.

[00:03:55] It's pretty fun to listen to. Jason and I stumbling through how to do this for the very first time. So... I appreciate you all for listening. I appreciate all the support over the years and let's take a listen to the very first episode of the Dental Hacks podcast

[00:04:14] from 10 years ago. And we'll catch you next episode. Welcome to the Dental Hacks podcast, a podcast for dentists by dentists. Now, sit back, relax. You're about to be hacked. Welcome to episode 1 of the Dental Hacks podcast. We're your hosts, Alan Mead and I'm Jason Lipscomb.

[00:04:45] You can find us on Twitter at DentalHacks, email us at info at dentalhacks.com or find us on Facebook at Dental Hacks or look us up in the phone book at Dental Hacks. Hey, it works too. Whatever works, man. Whatever works.

[00:05:01] So, how are you doing tonight, Alan? I'm good. I'm good. How you doing? I am fantastic. I got done with a full day of dentistry and I'm ready to cast some pods. That's right.

[00:05:11] That's because what else do you want to do after a full day of dentistry, but podcast? And sit around and talk about dentistry. That's right. What else is there? Right? What else is there?

[00:05:21] So this is our first episode of Dental Hacks. So why are we calling it Dental Hacks? We want to take the shine off other dental podcasts and get down to the nitty-gritty. We want to be the people that you go to to get the real story.

[00:05:38] We're dentists. We're both wet-fingered dentists. That sounds kind of gross. Yeah, but we mean that in the nicest way possible. But no, we want to make dental podcasting fun, informative and talk about the things that we want to hear. Let's be honest.

[00:05:57] What I really want to do is when that dentist gets in his car for like a 20-minute ride to work on Monday morning,

[00:06:04] I really want him to put us on so we can have a laugh and we can put him in a good mood before he goes into work. Or she, for that matter. This is not a sexist podcast at all.

[00:06:15] We want the other people out there to know that we commiserate with them and we're all trudging in there to pull out some amalgams when they get to work. Exactly. We call it Dental Hacks based on the term life hack, which is kind of an

[00:06:31] internet meme, if you will. It's basically how to live your life a little bit more efficiently. That's what we'd like to be. We'd like to be a go-to source for information and laughs when it comes to dentistry.

[00:06:41] We'd like to find some interesting people to interview and people in the dental world and really get down to the base of it and then figure out how we can make our lives easier and have a little fun at

[00:06:52] the same time, I think. Exactly. That's how we're going to do it. Each week we're going to bring you an interview with someone interesting with some good information that you can probably take to the office that day. And better than that, once we're done with our interview,

[00:07:06] we're going to go to our illustrious Brain Trust. The Brain Trust is a rotating panel of dentists that have really interesting opinions, funny opinions. Most of them are on the panel because they're funny. We think they're funny and I think you're going to think they're funny.

[00:07:21] And they've paid us large amounts of cash. That too. The ones that are on a lot, you can just know they've paid us more. That's how it works. We have a lot to bring you for our first episode here.

[00:07:36] Without too much further ado, we're going to get into our first interview. All right. Our first interview on the Dental Hacks podcast is Dr. Lance Timmerman. Both Al and I are very excited to be speaking with him today. And I think you're going to find

[00:07:52] that all his information is great and candid and very informative. Dr. Lance Timmerman is a cosmetic dentist in Seattle, Washington. A 1998 grad of the Oregon Health Sciences University School of Dental Medicine, Dr. Timmerman found that his niche was learning about new procedures

[00:08:09] and becoming a self-proclaimed CE junkie. Sounds dangerous. While expanding his practice, Dr. Timmerman began to treat both sleep apnea patients and those desiring Botox services. In our interview today, Dr. Timmerman shares his experiences with both Botox and treating sleep

[00:08:26] apnea in the dental environment. His shared thoughts are both candid and extremely informative. Sit back and enjoy a real life dental story from your new favorite dental podcast, Dental Hacks. And now it's time for the Dental Hacks Interview. This is Alan. This is Lance. Hey, Lance. What's happening?

[00:08:56] Hi. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but you're our first interview. So if the interview sucks, I'm totally blaming you. No problem. It won't have anything to do with Jason. I totally can reflect on you. I mean, no pressure,

[00:09:09] but don't suck basically. Yeah, that's all I'm saying. That's my motto. You can do just about anything. Just don't suck. I think we should have that on a t-shirt. Don't suck. Man, that could go so many different ways too. I mean...

[00:09:25] It really could. I mean, especially being dentists. Yeah. I'm serious. There's like five different entendres you can go with it. I love it. Don't suck. Okay. If I knew what an entendre was. Yeah. Look that up. I speak French. It's cool. Okay.

[00:09:43] I know you had a lot of stuff on Facebook that you were doing some teaching as well and getting Botox in your office. So I figured it's a good place to start. And we might throw a couple of sleeping apnea questions and things like that. Sure.

[00:09:59] If you're up for it. Well, we'll see. I mean, I don't know if I passed that stupid exam the other day. So maybe we should go that way. What exam is that? For the AADSM. Trying to get the diplomate with that. Okay. Okay.

[00:10:13] American Academy of Dental Sleep Medicine. Yeah. Yeah. And... Was it a tough test? Well, I thought there'd be more practical questions. The person presents this way, showing this and that. What does this indicate? And it wasn't. It was random stuff.

[00:10:30] I didn't know what the hell a Kell gauge is. So I'm coming to find out it's about the tongue retaining device. So I got that one wrong. Oh, interesting. I would like... If I were going to take a test like that,

[00:10:39] I would want a more practical thing. I would actually want to sleep for them. I'd want to go in and I'd want to snore for them, actually, would be what I would do. You'd have a full-on event.

[00:10:50] That's right. Let me show you what apnea really is. I think that'd be good. I got your apnea right here, buddy. Yeah, that's right. You look real close at this apnea, pal. See the graying of the skin? That's important.

[00:11:03] I'm turning blue. Yes, that's an apneic moment. All right. So actually, I'm going to start with this. Just tell us a little bit about your practice. Well, I like to think my practice is just a regular mom and pop family dental practice,

[00:11:29] but we do offer a lot of specialized services. And it's not until you have a temp come in for a couple hours or know what I'm doing. So then you realize that you're just offering a lot of

[00:11:39] things that aren't then maybe. While we do offer cleanings and fillings and crowns and root canals, the regular stuff, we do other services like smile makeovers, porcelain veneers, Botox, dermal fillers, sleep apnea, dental implant, both surgery and restorative. So kind of a hodgepodge of just about everything.

[00:11:57] Sure. Are you the only dentist? I am. Okay. Mostly because I can't get along with people, so I'm alone. That's strange in the dental community to be separated from other human beings. Most of us get along so well, I don't understand.

[00:12:14] But you offer all that stuff yourself. That's very cool. Yeah. Mostly because I like to do CE just to get away and do some travel. And you end up picking up a few nuggets along the way. And next thing you know, you've got a whole bunch

[00:12:26] of different skill sets. I was telling Alan that you'd like to do a lot of traveling and getting your dental license in different countries and things like that. And you've got some pretty interesting stories.

[00:12:37] Yeah, it's one of those things, it seemed like a good idea at the time. Don't they always? Yeah. That's pretty impressive that you get out to do as much CE as you do. That's kind of

[00:12:50] awesome. As a matter of fact, I kind of don't believe it. I think you're kind of lying. Well, Facebook allows you... I'm much cooler online. You meet me in person and you won't be able to impress. Exactly. I'll be out for that.

[00:13:05] Yeah, you've met me. You didn't like me. Exactly. I keep seeking you out online though. That's it. The whole reason to do Facebook at all is to paint a picture of what you aren't. I mean, clearly. Exactly. So I speak seven languages and so many passports. It's just...

[00:13:26] He's kind of the James Bond of dentistry, really. That's right. I'm working on it. He was an international hand model as well. Very well-rounded. Nice. All right. Okay, so we're going to focus a little bit on Botox too because

[00:13:43] that's one of the things that Jason and I were sort of talking about. I think there's a lot of dentists out there and a lot of dental team members that are pretty interested in that.

[00:13:52] When did you get started and how did you get started with Botox? How long have you been doing it? I got started... We were trying to do the math the other day. I think we started in

[00:14:00] 2008 or 2009. Like any good reason to add a service, my wife wanted Botox and said, go learn it and give it to me for free. So I went out and took a course. It was good. I was happy

[00:14:17] with the level of education. Immediately implemented it in the practice. Did that for a while. In fact, it turned down other opportunities to take more classes because you kind of think

[00:14:30] you know it all. You don't know what you don't know. It wasn't until my wife then wanted fillers that I realized, okay, I only know the Botox part. I don't know the fillers part. So I went

[00:14:41] to another course to learn the fillers, but it was offered Botox and fillers together. So I tried to convince them to give me a discount because I already know the Botox part. And being the wise

[00:14:51] business person they were, they refused. And so I did the Botox with it. My eyes were kind of open to so many other things that I was never taught with Botox. So I learned a little bit more

[00:15:01] with that and then I was able to add filler to the protocol. And then again, my wife wanted the fillers placed somewhere else and needed, that was the advanced level course. So I went and took

[00:15:14] an advanced level course with the fillers to be able to augment lips better and do some oral commissures and just do things just different. And so in the process of acquiring the skill set to

[00:15:25] do that, and for the longest time, really the only people we were doing Botox and fillers on was the staff. We'd mix it up, use it, and we'd end up going stale. So we're giving it away for free or

[00:15:34] severely discounted. And it wasn't until we realized that it was kind of a wasted skill set that we decided let's try to promote it a little bit more. Initially, we were afraid of gaining

[00:15:45] the attention of maybe a turf war of plastic surgeons and others and just try to fly under the radar. If you fly under the radar, you really just don't do much of it at all. And you're in Seattle, correct? Just south of Seattle, the greater Seattle area.

[00:16:00] Okay, what town are you in? Well, I'm in Tukwila. Tukwila, okay. And would you say it's a pretty competitive market for this kind of a service? Well, we're just south of the more affluent area. It's kind of a more middle-of-the-road

[00:16:16] community. There are some plastic surgeons and some high-rise, high-falutin types nearby. Sure. So I would say we're competitive with at least a 20-mile radius. And in that 20-mile radius is fairly competitive. So it does become price sensitive. And yeah, I would say it is still a competitive location.

[00:16:38] So where do you think the – if a dentist was going to say, okay, I want to learn about Botox, where should he go? Where should he go to learn about Botox?

[00:16:46] Well, I think of all the institutes or places I had gone, probably the one I thought that was the most comprehensive and applicable immediately was the Dentist Spa Seminars. And so I think

[00:16:59] that's a good place to start. It gets the right – it's taught by people that are specifically teaching dentists. So we're not taking the class with any other medical professional. I've been in other classes that was a mix of dermatologists and nurses and others.

[00:17:14] And the kind of questions were irrelevant half the time because I just didn't care about what the dermatologist was doing. So having a class of just dentists was great. The mixing ratios was a nice way. Having a nice concentration gives you a lot more control.

[00:17:31] And when I was first taught, it was diluted more, which tends to lead towards side effects that you don't want. Okay. Were they diluting it based on safety reasons or just for cost reasons?

[00:17:43] It was just the way that it was originally formulated. That's just the way it was always done for years and years. And so things just keep changing and improving, and they realize

[00:17:50] that at a higher concentration, we might have to place it in more locations, but it won't spread the way the other way would spread unpredictably. So I think Dentist Spa is probably the most

[00:18:04] current of them all. But the other places I went to, I don't think they were bad either. I just think that Dentist Spa has more to offer. Where is Dentist Spa located and what's the cost? Headquartered out of Miami or Aventura. You're usually looking, depending on the course,

[00:18:24] if it's going to be a lip augmentation course or the beginner Botox course, you're probably looking at a good $2,000 investment for the weekend. You will walk away for Monday morning. You'll have to make your first order of Botox. You won't be able to implement it Monday,

[00:18:39] but maybe a week from Monday. So it's something that you're pretty comfortable jumping into soon after then? Yeah, you'll walk away. You will do a hands-on. If you don't bring your own patient, they'll provide a patient. And so you will have already placed

[00:18:51] anywhere from 20 to 50 units of Botox right then. Okay. Do you think it's good for dentists to take both of the courses or just start out with the single Botox and then move on to the dermal fillers? Or do you find that you use one more than

[00:19:06] the other in your office? Their course, it's just you can't take one or the other. They're kind of taught simultaneously. Okay. And so the option really isn't there, but I don't think I would want an option of just the one.

[00:19:19] I'm glad that I ended up having to redo the Botox while trying to learn the fillers. Mostly because when people come in and you're trying to do a treatment plan, you're showing them the pictures and the options, and then they start pointing out lines

[00:19:33] and things, creases that you don't care about until then. It's nice to be able to know what it would take to satisfy them and make them happy. So you're doing a full set of cosmetic photos like the AACD series of photos with these patients as well?

[00:19:49] Yeah, we didn't used to, but then we started going towards, okay, we need to have a full face picture to at least narrate with the wrinkles and such. So, but I would say we do more Botox than fillers. And partly because it's nice thing

[00:20:04] about Botox, it really doesn't take very much time to do. Where fillers, it takes a bit of time. You need to place on and massage it and kind of step back and look. And you're probably looking at a

[00:20:14] good half hour on average to do that procedure. Whereas Botox, you can pretty much go in and be done in five minutes. How does Botox work into the workflow of a dental practice? I mean,

[00:20:24] are you setting it up like an operative appointment or do you have a specific day or time that you're treating these? How does it work? We've done it both ways. My goal was to get so many people hooked on Botox that just at the end

[00:20:37] of their cleaning appointment, we would then touch them up with some Botox and add just two minutes to the procedure. So you're taking a couple of hundred dollar hygiene appointment and to make

[00:20:45] it more like a $500 hygiene appointment. It hasn't quite worked out that way yet, but we do have the the core group of people that that's what we do. When we really wanted to promote it and kind of get the word out, we did do a Groupon. And

[00:21:02] I'm the glutton for punishment. I've done the Groupon for just about every type of service and to prove that it doesn't work. Excellent. I'm glad someone did, really. And I can tell all the reasons why, but the Botox one actually wasn't bad because we were able to

[00:21:16] negotiate with Groupon to the point where you break even, where normally you're losing money. You're mostly losing money because it takes so much time if you're doing an exam cleaning x-rays or you're doing a whitening procedure, unless you're giving away kits of whitening. You're

[00:21:29] chewing up chair time. And so all of those other discounted things just screw up your day. Well, the Botox, they can get in. You can delegate most of the intake and just show up in time to

[00:21:40] perform it. And so really we were scheduling them in. We're able to schedule it. So I only did three per day between 10 and two. And then it was only five minutes out of the schedule to pop in. So

[00:21:53] then we would start collecting names, people that want to be in right away. And we would just collect names of short notice type people for Botox. And if a day fell apart, which it never

[00:22:01] does in my practice, we would be able to just call them up and fill the day with Groupon redemption. So in a very short time, I think we sold like 200 Groupons of it. And so within three or six

[00:22:13] months, we did the 200 cases. So that's why I say that the Groupon is probably the only way that's what I would recommend to do with Groupon with Botox. Interesting. So Groupon and Botox work particularly well together. Who knew?

[00:22:29] Well, as long as you're not trying to make any money. So I ran into a nurse. Well, why would you do that? So we were trying to gain the exposure and brand ourselves and get the experience. I mean,

[00:22:39] 200 cases in a short time, you end up being pretty proficient. I'll bet. And so this nurse sees me at this class and she goes, oh, I recognize your name. And I'm like, oh, crap. And she says,

[00:22:53] were you just planning to not make any money? And I said, yeah, exactly. And she goes, yeah, we could never do that because that's how I make my living. And I told her, I said, look,

[00:23:02] I'm just hoping to get them to come back and do dentistry, do cleanings and fillings and regular stuff and or come back for more Botox and I could make money the second time. And so she wasn't too

[00:23:13] pleased with it, but she understood. And so it worked out good. I like the whole idea of giving them a little bit and hoping they'll come back for more. It's the very off the street type of thing.

[00:23:23] It's like crack cocaine. You're going to get the first one free. Heroin dealers do excellent with that. I mean, that is really, that's the whole, the heroin dealers do awesome with it. It's a booming market.

[00:23:32] That's been the whole argument with Groupon is how it fits into the dental world. And a lot of people have done cleanings and things like that in the hopes that these people are going to come

[00:23:40] back and be recurring patients. And they found that these people are just deal seekers half the time. So I really think it does work good in this case where it's a commodity where you've got a one set

[00:23:53] price where it's not insurance based that you can be successful with it in hopes that they come back for other stuff. So, I mean, it does make sense that that would work. Let's be honest.

[00:24:04] In the dental office, how many procedures do you have where people actually are coming to you really wanting it? Like last time I've had a patient say, you know, I really want this root

[00:24:13] canal. It doesn't happen very often, but I mean, they're seeking out Botox because it's Botox. I mean, in that sense. I'll be honest. Most people don't want to see me at all anyway and it has nothing to do with the dentist.

[00:24:23] Well, I try not to take that too personally when they say that, but it's hard. Okay. So tell me. I cry myself to sleep. Tell me this. What are the complications you might see or contraindications for Botox and dermal fillers?

[00:24:37] Well, the first thing you'll have a standard informed consent. People that have allergies to eggs, the whole albumin, the process of fabricating the Botox protein itself is, apparently they're using egg proteins. But for the most part, it's almost universal. I still actually haven't met anybody with an

[00:24:58] allergy for eggs, so maybe they don't. I've been able to apply the Botox to anybody that came through the door asking for it. The complications are if you don't know where to place it correctly.

[00:25:08] I mean, just because we have a license doesn't mean we really should place the Botox. You really should seek the training. There's very few complications that you can run into, but that's only from knowing in advance. Are there any medical conditions beyond the hypersensitivity to the eggs?

[00:25:23] I've never had anybody check off anything of all the contraindications. Honestly, it's been so many years since I've even read my informed consent. I can't remember what's on it. And conformed consent. So, I mean, we always tell them don't exercise.

[00:25:38] On the upside, you haven't killed anyone, so that's good. Well, not that I know of. None that you'll admit to. They haven't found the bodies yet. They train you on that in those Botox courses? How about that? How to hide the body. The body disposal.

[00:25:52] That's a level two course. That's right. For the advanced Botox user. Okay, so you're using it kind of unabashedly for cosmetic enhancement. Tell me this. Do you use it for any pain patients? Or are you basically just doing it? Okay, so you do use it for them. Yeah.

[00:26:08] Actually, the therapeutic use is the one you're really going to get the people on a schedule. They're going to be in there repeatedly. You know, the soccer moms that are addicted to it, they'll come in maybe not on the schedule

[00:26:19] because it's going to last every three to four months on average. The soccer mom might be more like six months to a year depending on how they do it. They're going to tell you when they want it again because they're going to see the wrinkle

[00:26:28] again or whatever, yeah. That kind of thing. Well, the therapeutic, I have this one lady, she's like 84. She's got the smoothest forehead of any 84 year old woman you've ever seen. But we're doing it for therapeutic use.

[00:26:43] Her TMD is significant enough that we tried so many different oral devices and you named the theory, we tried it. So finally I thought, you know, I was looking at refunding money and no one wants to do that.

[00:26:55] So I thought, well, how about the therapeutic use of Botox? And so you're using it all across the frontalis and into the masseters. You're pretty much using an entire vial. And you know, she comes in like clockwork.

[00:27:07] Every three months is when it starts wearing off and then she's in the schedule and walks in and we're placing another vial on her. It's interesting that you say that. I heard in a podcast like a week or two ago, a neurologist who treats pain and he's sort

[00:27:22] of a headache specialist literally described it almost exactly the same way you did. So that's very cool. I mean, you are clearly using it in multiple ways. That's interesting. Yeah. And you know, if people are making like a bruxism guard, your night guards are going

[00:27:37] to work better if you put a little Botox in the masseters. So the bruxism, well, the forces are going to be decreased. Yeah. Everything about those engrams are going to be affected. And so your bruxism guard might last even longer because you've added some Botox to it.

[00:27:53] That's interesting. Okay. So what do you think about states like, for instance, my state, Michigan and Jason State, Virginia, who have kind of come down with either really tight regulations or banned the use of it?

[00:28:04] Like in Michigan, you can use it for therapeutics for pain, but they have like, the language is very clear that they don't, dentists are not to use it for cosmetic enhance. What do you feel like that? What do you feel about that?

[00:28:15] Well, I think that sucks and you should move. I tell them that all the time. Yeah. So, you know, I do think the states are, I believe it's right now, there's four states

[00:28:27] that just dentists can't and the rest of them, there's either a limited use or free reign. And I'm fortunate to be in a state where it's pretty much free reign. You guys have recreational pot too though. So there's that. Yeah, exactly.

[00:28:41] Us in Colorado, we love our pot and Botox. Botox, exactly. But the brownies taste terrible. So, I mean, I understand their trepidation with it, but I don't think there's anybody better qualified to place Botox than a dentist. We're better at the injection itself.

[00:28:59] We know our head and neck anatomy as well as anybody. Allegedly. I just think, allegedly. I did sleep through that class. Yeah. So, but I mean, if we're going to be doing TMJ type of appliances, then we should be able to place it therapeutically.

[00:29:15] If we're doing cosmetic periodontal surgery, lip tack procedures and things like that, that's pretty invasive. I think we should be allowed to maybe put a little Botox in the lip to get rid of those the vertical smoker lines.

[00:29:28] Lateral sinus window, we can go in there and do that all day long. Exactly. You find, what do you, how do you market it? Do you have any particular, I mean, you say you did a Groupon, but are you, I mean, is

[00:29:41] it, are you working your search engine stuff? Is it newspapers, radio? What's your marketing campaign for this? And do you market it separately from other dental services? Yeah. Well, I have it kind of listed.

[00:29:54] If I do a direct mail piece and we're pretty consistent with direct mail, it's just kind of listed there. It's a little more subtle when it's listed amongst all the bullet points of things that you do. I do have, it looks like a little magazine that we created.

[00:30:07] It's probably a, I don't know, a 12 or a 16 page brochure. And one page talks about Botox. Another page talks about implants. Another page talks about teeth whitening. And so there's some before and after about veneer cases and stuff. So that's there as well.

[00:30:22] Those are probably the more classic ways that we're promoting it. And then we decided that the Groupon actually worked pretty good, but we didn't want to do it too often. So we have kind of an 18 month, two year win as far as regularity.

[00:30:33] We don't want people to just say, well, I'm just going to wait till your next coupon comes out because they'll never pay full fee. So if we do it that infrequently and if they're going to wait that long, okay, fine.

[00:30:43] You're just never going to take advantage of the frequent use of it. But most people, it's more of a branding opportunity. Who are you using for your direct mailings in your magazine? If you don't want to say it's fine, I understand. No, no.

[00:30:56] I use Inc. and Crisad almost alternatively. I think the brochure itself starts to look stale and they're too familiar with it. And so then switching to the other company, very similar database, very similar approach. This kind of freshens it up.

[00:31:15] And then when we start seeing diminished returns with that, we'll go back to the other. Okay. All right. Are you finding a lot of new patients seeking you out specifically because of the Botox or

[00:31:25] is it typically a regular dental patient that decides that it's a benefit to be in the office and do Botox? I would say it's more, it's either coming straight from the Groupon type of a promotion and then they see that from it.

[00:31:40] Even the search engine stuff, the stuff on the internet, I still think those people are seeking dermatologists and others, more traditional providers. So it's the existing patients or the Groupon. We were featured on the evening news recently and so that kind of got some good exposure,

[00:31:58] but that's going to be kind of a flash in the pan. We don't really expect a long-term exposure that way. Have you had any negative feedback from some of the real doctors? Heard any patients say anything about it?

[00:32:11] Well, I did take, I'll go to little courses where these dermatologists put them on. And the same place where that nurse said, wait, I know who you are. Well, I was just there to observe.

[00:32:21] I didn't want to, I just wasn't sure how I was going to be received. And this one dermatologist, she said, oh, you didn't bring any fillers. We were doing fillers on the tear troughs underneath the eyes. And so I have some if you want to inject me.

[00:32:35] And I thought, oh, okay. And then someone said something that let her know that I was a dentist and she looked at me and she went, oh, what? You're a dentist? Yeah. She goes, oh, well then no, nevermind. Oh, geez. I thought, well, okay, you suck.

[00:32:46] Well, then five minutes later, the guy teaching the class was talking about placing it in the masseters for trying to slim the face. And he says, be careful. Don't inject too deeply into the masseters because then you'll hit the pterygoids. I thought, well, wait a minute.

[00:32:59] No, you won't. He goes, no, no, underneath. I said, yeah, but there's a big old bone there. Yeah. You might dull your knee a little before you get there. Yeah. I said, you got bigger problems if you're hitting the pterygoids.

[00:33:10] So then the one that she looked at me and she goes, oh, well, you know, I'm not a dentist. She goes, oh, you clearly know your anatomy. You can go ahead and do my tear troughs. And I said, screw you. I'm not touching you. Nice. Nice.

[00:33:23] So, yeah, you get little things like that. I do. You do have a point. I mean, what physician, any physician uses a needle as much as we do? I mean, that's sort of ridiculous. Heroin users would probably be good too.

[00:33:35] They should be training heroin users and dentists at the same time because we're all needling. On a side note, and you're going to edit this part out, but when I had my vasectomy, the guy told me, he says, oh, you're a dentist. Man, you know your nerves.

[00:33:47] And I said, well, I hope you know yours. And he goes, no, we just kind of go for an area and just hope it works. But you actually know your facial anatomy and there goes this way and that way.

[00:33:57] And that's when it dawned on me that, yeah, I'm kind of badass. Yeah. Okay. So here's the question. Do you have any needle phobic patients who really want Botox? Do you have people who bitch about the injections even though it's pretty much all injections? Yeah, yeah.

[00:34:13] And so we don't normally place topical anesthetic on the forehead before we do it. But on those people, we might wait an extra 10 minutes to let it just get as numb as it possibly could.

[00:34:24] But I've been surprised that the people that have bitched and moaned and given me hassle to give a dental injection and was only doing it because the tooth was swollen and everything was about losing the tooth because of their needle phobias.

[00:34:39] But yet they were easier to do, have the Botox. Kind of like the person that's all tattooed and they say, well, I hate needles and I can't stand this. Well, clearly. Their earlobes are big enough that you could put your thumb through. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

[00:34:53] So the nice thing is we're using a 31 gauge needle and that's the insulin level. I mean, it's so small that they barely feel a thing. Yeah, yeah. If any. Okay. So do you have, are Botox patients more high maintenance than a non-Botox patient? Yeah. To be honest, yeah.

[00:35:08] There's so many people, providers out there that are doing it so differently. They're diluting it at four to one, two and a half to one, one to one, all over the place that some people will, I'll purposely now ask them how many units they had previously,

[00:35:21] what was their concentration previously, enough to confuse them enough to let them know that well, you really want to learn this because you need to know where it goes. Because I just, one, we did the glabella. That's those frown lines between eyebrows.

[00:35:36] And the person, she's a seasoned veteran with Botox. She does it all the time. And so we went ahead and we did the glabella and she calls a couple of weeks later saying it didn't take.

[00:35:45] And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, how, what do you mean it didn't take? Well, she drives an hour into the office to show me and she couldn't move the glabella at all. But above the glabella, the other worry lines on the forehead, they were still there and moving.

[00:36:00] And she says, look, my forehead, there's still lines. I said, I know, but I didn't treat the forehead. I said, we did the glabella. And she goes, no, but usually when I get my glabella done, the forehead is affected too.

[00:36:09] So that tells me that they were using a diluted version of the Botox so it spread more, but doesn't last as long. And so, you know, she was- Those bastards. She knew, yeah, she knew what she knew and she was mad at me.

[00:36:21] She wanted me to give her free Botox to finish it off. And I said, no, you got your discount with the Groupon so you can pay full price for the touch up. So I lost her on that one and I don't think I'll see her again.

[00:36:32] But a lot of them, they think they know how Botox is done. And as soon as you ask them a few questions about dilution and number of units, then they quickly realize that they might not know everything.

[00:36:44] So yeah, I would say they're probably the more high maintenance people. But once you've got them an understanding and trusting that you know what you're doing, that you might actually be better than that plastic surgeon down the street.

[00:36:54] And let's be honest, it's not the plastic surgeon doing it. It's his nurse that's doing it or his assistant. You don't even know if she's a nurse or not. So you're competing with that person as far as a skill level.

[00:37:04] As soon as they trust you and know that you might actually know more than them, that's where you're probably going to get them to come back for repeat business. JASON TORCHINSKY All right. I'm cashed out on the Botox and dermal fillers. Jason, you got anything more?

[00:37:16] LANCE HOLMES I think I'm pretty good. JASON TORCHINSKY You're pretty good? Okay. Can we—are you doing okay, Lance? We beating you up too bad? LANCE HOLMES Yeah. JASON TORCHINSKY All right. You want to talk a little—let's talk a little bit about sleep apnea because that's—

[00:37:27] LANCE HOLMES Yeah, absolutely. Well, that was a great interview by Dr. Lance Timmerman. I hope you guys really enjoyed that. That is actually part one of two parts of the interview with Dr. Timmerman. So tune in again next time for another great interview with him.

[00:37:46] This time we're going to be talking a little bit about sleep apnea in the dental office and how Dr. Timmerman has incorporated it into his office and some tricks and different tweaks that he's learned over time.

[00:37:59] And you can definitely hear a little bit more the next time around, so be sure to tune back in to Dental Hacks. Al, where can they find us again? AL DEWEYS Well, you can find us on the web at www.dentalhacks.com.

[00:38:13] You can find us on Twitter at dentalhacks. You can email us at info at dentalhacks.com. And you can find us on Facebook at dentalhacks. And yes, episode two will have the second part of this interview.

[00:38:29] What we're going to have for you next is the first installment of the Dental Hacks Brain Trust. In a world where dentists are often boring and usually humorless, there exists an elite few that rise above the cacophony of mediocrity.

[00:38:47] These superlative clinicians have been brought together from across the world for one reason. To enlighten and entertain you. Well, that's two reasons. Anyways, get ready for them to infect your brain, restore your senses, and extract your laughter. I give you the Dental Hacks Brain Trust.

[00:39:17] This is Al, Alan Mead on this. Go around and say hello to everyone so everyone knows who they are. Okay, this is my friend Jason L. L-U. We got two Jason L's here to make it confusing. So, try Jason L-U.

[00:39:33] Jason L. Yes, Alan, thank you for having me. Alright. I'm really excited to just see you take off with this podcasting endeavor. Alright, thanks. My other, my co-host Jason Lipscomb. You there? Jason L. I am. Good evening. Alright. Hey, what's happening? I'm totally underwhelmed by being here.

[00:39:53] That makes six of us. Alright, and my friend Tammy Bailey. Are you there? Yes, I am. Alright. Ooh, you come in nice. You got that voice. You got that voice, I'm telling you. Wow. And my other friend Dawn Kuligowski. She here? I am here. Alright, very good.

[00:40:14] And last but certainly not least, Andy Hayes. You there? I'm here. Alright, you guys sound great tonight. Feel great. Good, good, good. Alright, can you hear the frogs in the background on my mic? Yes, is that you? That's me.

[00:40:29] I have a little nature soundtrack going on back here. I can close the window, but it's so dang hot up here. Alright, so all I want, what I wanted to do was just have sort of a group discussion

[00:40:40] and feel free to jump in and make comments, anything like that. I disagree. Okay, good. Excellent. Get that story out. Appreciate that. Jason and I interviewed a guy by the name of Lance Timmerman last week who's in Seattle area. He's doing a lot of Botox. On people?

[00:41:03] Yeah, on people. And I think he does a lot of sleep apnea treatment as well. So we kind of interviewed him about that. It was a good interview actually. Yeah, it was. And he's in Washington.

[00:41:14] And in Washington, apparently they're allowed to do Botox for cosmetic, like the whole face and everything like that. So I'm just going to throw this out to start. Is anyone here trained in using Botox in any way? I have some of the videos and I've watched them.

[00:41:31] I haven't actually pulled the trigger and done it, but one of my partners in the building does do the Botox. He just completed a course and he is doing it. Okay, and you're in Wisconsin. What are the rules in Wisconsin? There are no rules in Wisconsin.

[00:41:46] We just started requiring CE two years ago. So just in general, there are no rules. No, there is no, we can do it for cosmetic. We can do it for TMD. We can do it for headaches. There really are no restrictions other than adequate training. Nice. Okay.

[00:42:05] And the training you were taking is some kind of videotapes? Is that right? Or sometimes? I just did it to see if it, I purchased the videotapes from Mock Mockers Group. The Society for Facial Aesthetics or whatever it's called.

[00:42:20] And I just mostly watched them to see if it was something I'd be interested. So that's as far as I've gotten. Okay. Okay. I always shouldn't interject that anytime anybody says aesthetics, they have to pronounce it correctly in the podcast vernacular. That's right.

[00:42:35] Aesthetics is spelled with a silent A and you must pronounce it in that way. Aesthetics would be good. I prefer that if you don't mind. So Andy, do you have any orthodontic background with Botox? Do you hear anyone using it in ortho treatment?

[00:42:50] People are and typically it's more the females. And I'm assuming that it's probably related to themselves and their friends. My wife's a general dentist and she took the aforementioned course that Tammy was talking

[00:43:05] about earlier and it's something that she doesn't do in her office, but it ends up being done at our home a lot more. So you're admitting to Botox parties is what you're saying? I'm not a part of it.

[00:43:19] I was a part of one of those and she tried to shoot up my masseters to stop clenching and they won. They won. Botox was no match for those. Oh good. I love that. I have a feeling that'd be the way it'd be for me.

[00:43:32] He mentioned that he does it. He'll do it. It sounds like he does a lot of it and he does a lot for cosmetic. He does a lot for pain, but he also mentioned doing it like you said, like in he'll put

[00:43:45] his patients that he's having wear Bruxism appliances and hit him in the masseter just to slow down the grinding, which I'd never heard of that. That's kind of interesting. So Jason Luchtfeld, anything out there in Illinois?

[00:43:58] Yeah, I took a course and was going to get into it and decided that it, I didn't really like the patient management side of those people, meaning the cosmetically driven people. Sure.

[00:44:13] And there was a nurse that was giving it here in town and she was looking for a place to do it. So we talked for a while and she did some Botox in my office for a little while.

[00:44:24] And then as I started exploring that more, Illinois was okay with it, but the malpractice insurance in Illinois was not okay with it. And they required a separate rider for Botox specifically. And it was going to be as much or more than my malpractice insurance for dentistry. Interesting.

[00:44:46] So I decided that I didn't really want to deal with that for those two reasons. And so haven't. So I haven't really read much or looked into it much in the last couple of years, other than for pain. Stephen Novella did talk about using it in his practice.

[00:45:02] He's a neurologist and uses it on pain patients in specific instances. I wonder if there's a different designation of it for treating pain versus cosmetics for your malpractice insurance. Do you, I don't know, do you know that? Probably. Because it seems like... I don't think it matters. Interesting.

[00:45:22] I would say no, just because if you've got it in your hands... Sure. Dawn, I know where you are. She's in Michigan and we're not allowed to do it for cosmetics. We can do it for pain, but we can't do it for cosmetics. They changed that, Alan.

[00:45:33] Didn't they take that back? I don't... My under... There was a brief limbo period. They originally, there was no statement. They had made no statement about dentists and Botox for a period of time.

[00:45:44] And then they came out with a statement that said you can use the Botox if you've been properly trained, but not for cosmetics. Yeah. And then the, oh, that Maltmacher got after them a little bit and they removed the statement from their website. Yeah.

[00:46:01] So as far as I know, it can be done now. And actually the day spa that I go to, there's a dentist who does it at the day spa. Oh, interesting. He goes one day a week and does it for people there. Interesting.

[00:46:12] I think Maltmacher had said on his thing that almost all the states could do it, but I know in Richmond or I know in Virginia, it lays it out that only oral surgeons can do it. I was, I looked it up on the website the other day.

[00:46:25] So we may be one of the last holdouts for a while down here. I think Michigan did have, they had it laid out very specifically on the, both the board of dentistry website and the Michigan Dental Association website.

[00:46:37] And they are taken down in both places and they're sort of mum about it. I think probably the way that it stands is it's supposed to be for pain. And it's probably just a wink, wink, nudge, nudge thing where so is your headache by your crow's feet?

[00:46:50] You know, one of those things. I expect that's what it is. So I think you're still in Michigan. I think you're probably taken on a fair amount of risk if, as long as everything goes well. I will say this, I don't do a ton of cosmetic dentistry.

[00:47:04] This seems to me after, and maybe it's talking to someone who just does a lot of it for cosmetics. It seems like a lower risk procedure than I ever thought. I mean, if you're trained well, it sounds like the contraindications are pretty slight and it really is reversible.

[00:47:17] I mean, it's very reversible, you know, compared to, you know, once you prep a veneer, man, you're done. That's not reversible. So this strikes me as a little less invasive than I was thinking.

[00:47:27] I think the downside for me would be what Luchtefeld said, where the kind of patients you're going to get coming in for this are going to be a management, maybe a management nightmare. I don't know.

[00:47:38] I mean, how do you guys feel about a patient coming in every three months to get shot up, but then at six month intervals have a hard time coming in for their, their profis? It's so true. Well, actually you could maybe get them to come in for you.

[00:47:54] Yeah. You could get them to come in for their profis when they're looking for their Botox. Can't have your Botox until you've had your profis. That's exactly right. You Botox them in the cab so they can't run away. We're going to clean your teeth. I like that.

[00:48:15] I just keep feeling like there should be some great thing for ortho. I don't, I don't know why, but. I would think you'd do dermal fillers and stuff to improve the final outcome, I guess. Smile line. Don't look at the occlusion. Just look at your beautiful lips.

[00:48:29] That's what I'm thinking. I mean, the majority of my patients don't have to worry about crow's feet. Yeah. But you know, the good point. Not yet. The gummy smile is a huge problem, you know, and for orthodontists it's no exception.

[00:48:44] But, you know, the main cause that I think we find out is that it's not because of a hyperactive, you know, elevator muscle, you know, in smiling, it's short upper lip and there's just nothing Botox is going to do for that. No.

[00:48:57] And I think sometimes it's easy for people to think, well, it's just a shot and it's no big deal, but yeah, it's. Well, that's where some of the risk comes into play. When you start messing around with Botox too close to the lip, you can actually screw up

[00:49:09] how people can drink and eat. Drinking and eating. Come on. It's only important if they're beautiful. I'd be interesting. I'd actually like to see video of that. Not my treatment, someone else's treatment, but not my treatment.

[00:49:24] Well, my assistant went with the guy in my office as one of his victims in the class and she actually had a difficult time using her reading glasses because she couldn't lift her eyes up enough to see through the straight ahead.

[00:49:41] So she actually had to tip her head and she hated it. She will never do it again. Just the stuff he did around her eyes. I enjoyed it. So have you had it done? No, no, I enjoyed her not being able to see it was hilarious.

[00:49:56] You enjoyed her agony. Yes, I did. It was a daily fun for me. I'm picturing a Tim Conway skit of some sort here, something like that. It kind of was, but she was tipping her head to see things. That's hilarious. It was funny. Yeah. Okay.

[00:50:12] Somebody said that it's low risk. It's just a shot. Let's try that instead of the surgery. For me, and this is kind of going back to what Jason had said, that is the risk.

[00:50:20] You have a patient that comes in and whether they say it or not, their expectation is that it is going to work. And if it doesn't, dealing with that disappointment as a practitioner, that's rough.

[00:50:30] And that's what Lancet said in the interview too about somebody prior had gotten a shot and they had diluted it and spread to a bigger area than what he was doing.

[00:50:41] And then when he did it as a more concentrated dose, it didn't get the same areas and her expectations were not met. And he said it was a pain in the ass trying to get her taken care of. But doctor, I'm still fat. Yeah.

[00:51:02] This was supposed to fix me. That is the problem with anything cosmetic though. Being totally honest, that is the problem. The teeth look great, right? Your teeth look great. You're still really, really ugly though. Yes, it's sad, but it's true. It didn't take away the 30 years.

[00:51:20] The 30 years didn't melt off with six veneers. And it's very disappointing for people. On the upside, you could deflect bullets off your forehead. I assume the concern is the same as the patient that will bleach and bleach and bleach.

[00:51:36] And you look at them and you go, I cannot bleach you anymore. Your teeth are translucent or they're clear or blue. I can actually see through your teeth. I'm sure it's exactly the same thing.

[00:51:45] So the other thing is that for me, Lance had a point that dentists give more shots than anyone and we know head and neck anatomy better and all that stuff.

[00:51:55] And he may be right about that with the shots, but I think it comes down to if you're willing to deal with the patients. Obviously we're allowed to do it at least in most states, but it doesn't seem much like a dental procedure to me.

[00:52:08] No, and that's why I think most of the time it's done in conjunction with something that actually is dental. I don't think you'd get a lot of people that would come and say, oh, I want the lip injection from their dentist.

[00:52:17] That's not the place they think of that for. But if you're doing something else and then to kind of give the lips a little better look, if you did it in conjunction, it would make sense. But I think you're right.

[00:52:28] Nobody's going to call the dentist looking for that. Unless you're marketing it like crazy. Right, like at my day spa, unless you go in the bathroom and it's on the mirror and it's on everybody's little, you know, the hairstylist, their little mirrors, they all have the little

[00:52:42] advertisement for it. So for that, I mean, they're planting the seed. Are any of you in a market where there's a fair amount of marketing specifically for cosmetic dental procedures? I'm definitely not. I'm in Saginaw, Michigan, which is pretty blue collar. So I don't see much of that.

[00:52:58] Yeah, no. You're in central Wisconsin. I know where Dawn is. Yeah, we got less teeth than you. Yeah, Dawn's probably similar to me. What about Richmond, Jason? What's the, is that a big, I mean, do you have a lot of guys that are thriving as cosmetic dentists?

[00:53:14] We've got four or five guys that have battling TV commercials on the 6 o'clock news every night. So you can just. Are you serious? Just wondering who's going to have the one up dental commercial next time around.

[00:53:28] So they, yeah, there's four or five guys and I've run into these guys before with doing SEO and stuff like that from my website around Richmond. These guys are just cutthroat and they were just, they're just marketing heavy.

[00:53:41] So yeah, I mean, it depends on what area you're in, but around here, it's definitely, and we've got a dental school here, so that makes it ultra competitive too. Everybody wants to stay here and then they wind up going up against each other.

[00:53:55] But yeah, it's a lot of advertising around here. Do any of them advertise, any of them advertise like Botox or dermal filler specifically? I mean, we don't have any, we can't do it. Well, that's right.

[00:54:06] Yeah, but they do advertise a lot of the cosmetic stuff and the diabetes dentist and this other thing and this other. So yeah, those guys are all trying to make a name for themselves in some way or the other.

[00:54:19] As soon as it becomes legal here, then one of them will be the expert right off the bat. About 25 more pounds, I'll be the diabetes dentist here. You know, it might be off topic, but that diabetes dentist thing is actually like a marketing mill.

[00:54:34] I don't know if any of you have gotten that. It's like they send pamphlets to your office advertising to you that you can become the diabetes dentist and it's basically a series of books and videos. Really? And then they give you all the marketing.

[00:54:48] They give you the ad campaigns, they give you posters, they give you pamphlets to mail out. Yeah, that's like a thing. So are you marketing for patients with diabetes? You're marketing for patients with diabetes. It's all about that stuff, you know, like niche marketing. Are you serious?

[00:55:02] That's like a big buzzword. I'm dead serious. I want to market for people with dry mouth. That's what I want to market. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you would kill with that. I can't, well, why would you want to market for that? Diabetes like...

[00:55:14] I think again, I think it's just people got really into these, you know, people love the buzzwords, niche dentists, you know, like your niche marketing. And so they're marketing to people who want a niche. I just can't believe that. It's an oral systemic health slant.

[00:55:31] And so you're going to get all these people in and try and do perio on all of them. And I think those of us in the Midwest, that's most of us on this call right now, could actually benefit by this.

[00:55:41] Instead of the diabetes, we could be the diabetes. Diabetes, exactly. That is diabetes stuff. We've had some people that we've been told that, hey, if they have diabetes, you can get their physician to say that they can have more cleanings during the year.

[00:56:01] And several people have done that. The physicians come back and like, this dentist is crazy. Why is he trying to get you to get extra cleanings? So we've just given up on that aspect. I'll bet you they're saying you can bill medical insurance.

[00:56:16] I'll bet you a hundred bucks. That's what it's about. You're going to check their blood when they're in the chair. You're going to do different kinds of tests that you can code out and stuff. I'll bet you that's what it is.

[00:56:25] It's supposed to be the dental insurance will pay for it because I've had a couple people that have severe diabetes and they have terrible hygiene. So you do them every six months and they're just a mess every time.

[00:56:38] So we try to help them out and get the insurance to pay for it, but the doctor has to write off on it. They just got plaque and tartar and stuff all over the place and they just build it up as soon as they leave the office.

[00:56:53] It's a hard time on them every time they come in. So it's stupid, but they fight it. And they don't want to come in another time. Yeah, that's true. Andy, are you still there? I can't hear you. Yeah, I'm there. Can you hear me? I can hear you.

[00:57:08] I can hear you now. Andy, where are you? In St. Louis. Yeah, okay. St. Louis. So do you guys have a lot of marketing for cosmetic stuff there or not really? You know, I've seen a lot less the last, well, ever since probably the 2008 issues. Sure.

[00:57:23] But what I've seen is a lot more radio ads and dealing just like Dawn was saying with these like niche type dentistry. And it's usually the same people and they've gone to a new course or something last weekend.

[00:57:38] So, you know, there'll be migraine treatments, you know, and then the next time it gets to be like, you know, allergy season or sinus season and they're just these ads about, you know, do you have a sinus infection? Maybe it's not a sinus infection.

[00:57:54] Maybe your dentist is the one you need to be seeing. And so it's like they can turn themselves into a Walgreen, you know, take care clinic and diagnose some tooth decay.

[00:58:03] And I'm not saying there's not merit to that, but to me, it's kind of an odd way to market your practice. And I'm not sure if that's the patients that I would want. The thing that I've seen the most of though recently is these people keep reinventing

[00:58:17] the same advertising campaign with, you know, a specific type of braces, you know, these ones I can't say although they'll sue you. But it's really pathetic and very misleading. They're orthodontics that seem to move teeth really fast. Right. I wouldn't use that word though. I might not.

[00:58:37] Quickly, quickly. Quickly, yes. They seem to move teeth quickly. Let's just say that. Interesting. With one wire. I agree that we've got a lot of...it seems like they reinvent the wheel. And there's...I mean, it tends to be the same folks.

[00:58:54] In my area, we don't have a ton of that. Honestly, we don't have TV commercials to speak of that I know of. We get occasional...we had some radio commercials for a while and they didn't last. So they must not have worked that well. I don't know.

[00:59:07] I guess it depends on your market as to whether something like that's going to work because I know that Dr. Bailey has had pretty good luck with...was yours a TV one or was it a radio one? I actually had both.

[00:59:19] When I first moved to town, because I didn't know anybody when I moved to town. So when I first moved to town, I did a direct mail piece and it was...I think the success of it was because I was the only...I was the first one.

[00:59:29] No one had ever done that. And we actually, for as small of a town as we are, we do have quite a few dentists in the area and it worked really well to the tune of 75 patients a month. I mean, it was crazy.

[00:59:41] And then I went to radio because it was cheap and one of the people that responded to my direct mail piece was the radio station general manager and he was a new patient.

[00:59:50] So we got to talking and I ran some radio stuff and then my assistant's fiance was the TV guy. So then I moved over to TV and the TV was really successful and I haven't run an ad

[01:00:04] in two years and just last week someone came up to me, introduced himself, said they were happy to meet me because they'd seen me on TV and was able to sing my little jingle.

[01:00:15] So I mean, it was really successful and if I hadn't sold out to the man, I would totally be running... You'd be doing it still, sure. I would totally be doing it because it's really inexpensive in my market.

[01:00:27] I don't think I could afford it in St. Louis market for sure not. But it was really inexpensive during the nine to three slots for sure. Did you write your own jingle? Be honest. No, I did not. It's actually a New York marketing firm that did it.

[01:00:43] And I know that there's a YouTube link. I'll link it for anyone who's listening this who wants to hear it because it's awesome. Because I will not be singing it. Yeah, no, I'm not going to make you sing it.

[01:00:54] Over the years, I've heard a lot of good stories about your jingle. So we'll link that for sure. Okay. Tammy's jingle is famous. I don't think I've ever even heard it, but I've heard of it. It's good. Yeah.

[01:01:04] I remember people quote it to you and sing it to you in inopportune places if I remember correctly. Absolutely. You are correct. I will second that though that we did the TV ads for about two years. And I haven't run one in six months.

[01:01:19] And people still tell me they stop me in the grocery store and they go, God, I saw you on TV. Your TV ad is really good too though. I saw your TV ads were great. Our TV ad was not cosmetic. Like that was not.

[01:01:30] No, no, no, no, no. It was a family thing mostly. But it was just it was good. Yeah, it was. Yes. It was honestly the least cheesy dental ad that I've seen for a lot of times. You know what's funny? When we did that, that was my condition.

[01:01:42] I did not want this. You know, you see those local commercials. It's like the used car sales type thing. I did not want that. I didn't want to be holding any kind of sign. I wasn't going to sing a song.

[01:01:54] I think my condition if I were going to do one, I would have I would require that I get to dress up like a taco. That would be my second choice. I'm on down to Marloweville.

[01:02:05] I'm not doing one unless I can dress up like a taco or Hannibal Lecter or something like that. All right. The other thing that we talked about with Lance was. Psst. Hey, listener, just a quick aside.

[01:02:16] When we first started recording the Brain Trust, I had no idea what to expect from it. So what I found is we didn't introduce our brain trust very well. So I want to give you their names real quick.

[01:02:26] We'll have some biographical information up on the website at dentalhacks.com. But in the meantime, that was Jason Luchtefeld, also a podcaster. You can see his podcast stuff at theprismpodcast.com. Don Kulongowski, Tammy Bailey and Andy Hayes.

[01:02:45] I thank them very much for being the guinea pigs with our new and exciting podcast. And I hope you get to hear lots from them soon. Now back to your regularly scheduled podcast. Well, that brings us to the end of the first episode of Dental Hacks.

[01:03:05] We'd love to hear what you think about us. There's a lot of ways that you can get in touch with us. Let us tell you some of those ways. What are those ways, Al? Well, one way would be emailing us at info at dentalhacks.com. Email us.

[01:03:22] Let us know if there's someone you'd like us to interview or something specific you'd like us to talk about or something you'd like the Brain Trust to talk about or anything like that. You could also reach us on Twitter. Where could they reach us on Twitter? At dentalhacks.

[01:03:39] Yeah, that's us on Twitter. It was very complicated. That was really complicated. And last but not least, you can find us on Facebook, the Dental Hacks page. So you can find us in a lot of places. I hope you enjoyed it.

[01:03:53] Get ready for our episode two, which should be out shortly. And thank you very much for listening and we'll see you soon. Bye-bye. Thanks, guys. Bye.