Very Dental Classics: How Trauma Creates Dentists

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[00:01:23] We've been podcasting here at Very Dental for more than 10 years. There's a lot of good stuff from the glory days. It's worth a listen. Welcome to Very Dental Classics. Very Dental people, welcome to the very first episode of the Very Dental Classics. I threatened that I was going to do this in yesterday's episode of the Alameda Experience, and here we are.

[00:01:45] So it's Tuesday. It's the 14th of January. You're wondering, where is my normal dose of Very Clinical? And I have an answer for you. We are actually going to record an episode, a very football-based episode of the Very Clinical Podcast tomorrow. So here's the thing. I kind of switched up the order of things for this week. It will not be like this forever, but this is what we're doing for this week.

[00:02:10] Because Zach has a team in the playoffs. I have a team in the playoffs. Kevin has a team in the college finals, the Ohio State University. And we're bringing on a guest who's a Lions fan and a big fan of Notre Dame. So we're just going to talk about football. It's called Very Clinical, but I think that episode will not be Very Clinical. We might throw in like, we'll talk about something clinical for like a second just to call it clinical, but we're going to talk about it. It'll be very football is what it'll be. Very Football.

[00:02:39] Anyhow, so for today I have a classic episode that I loved. I remember when we made this episode. It features Dr. Mark Costas and Dr. Brad Keener. And what's interesting is both of these guys were exposed to dentistry in a horrible, interesting way because they had like facial trauma. Like how crazy is that, right?

[00:03:01] So, and they tell their stories. I think it was really interesting how it literally shaped their careers in some ways, but also like what they had done. And honestly, I can't remember. Mark has even had more work done since this, since this episode was recorded. Just interesting stuff. It was very interesting. It was a good episode. It was a Dental Hacks episode. It also features Dr. Jason Lipscomb on there. I hope you guys enjoy it as much as I enjoyed digging into the archives for you.

[00:03:29] The original episode was released in September of 2020. So, just to give you some references, there may be some hot COVID talk, pandemic talk as well. I hope you guys enjoy this episode featuring Dr. Mark Costas, Dr. Brad Keener, and Dr. Jason Lipscomb. And enjoy. This is the Dental Hacks podcast.

[00:03:59] A podcast created by dentists for dentists. Now, sit back, relax. You're about to be hacked. Dental Hacks Nation, welcome to episode 303 of the Dental Hacks podcast. 303. 303. My name is Alan Mead. Hello. I'm Jay Lips. He is. Mark has probably done like 900 by now. That's why. I know. So, you're going to be a used lacquers. I feel like 303 in cost is over 90.

[00:04:29] You know, give me a break. This is number two for me. Yes. Mark Costas here. Glad to be here. Joining us. Joining us for the entire episode today, we have two of my favorite dentists in the entire world. They didn't know that before I said that, but I just said this. Joining us. He's been on the show several times before. He also has done this thing called Voice of Dentistry with us in the past. Dr. Mark Costas. Mark, how are you doing? Hey, thank you guys so much for doing this. Also joining us.

[00:04:58] This is his second time on the show. And it might seem like an odd pairing. Dr. Mark Costas along with Dr. Brad Keener. Brad, how are you doing? I'm doing wonderful. We've got the fine wine that is Mark Costas and the bush light that is Brad Keener. And I'm not going to leak exactly why we have both you guys on the show at the same time until later. It's going to be a little bit of a cliffhanger. See what I did there? Yes. I like that. So now the listeners are hooked. It's like we set the hook. It's going to be great.

[00:05:27] So welcome to the show, fellas. Nice to have you here. We're actually finishing up Labor Day. Labor Day 2020. We survived this far. So, well, so we think. Indeed. Indeed. I wanted to ask you guys a couple questions. Like my. I'm alluding to the fact that 2020 has been a complete show. And I suspect it has been for all of us. But I want to propose to all of you guys a couple things.

[00:05:56] The first is a. Something I've. Lately, I've been on a nostalgia trip like crazy. Ever since 2020 hit, I've been trying to relive my life in the 80s. Long story short. Why is that? I've been listening to only classic rock for the last four months. It's so weird. And I hadn't. I hadn't been. I hadn't listened to classic rock for a decade before this. I've gone to my parents' house. My mom can like cuddle me and. A little bit. Well, that's nostalgic too. That's a little different. A little different. Classic rock. Snuggling mom. But.

[00:06:26] But, you know, I really have been. Like I'm putting together playlists of about. Early 80s. Kind of remembering when, you know. I think it's because we didn't have. Smartphones then. And we didn't have the internet. We didn't have any. We didn't have any. We also didn't have COVID. Then either. So. I'm pretty sure that's what it is. We had rubella. Yeah. The good old days. Fantastic clinician. Yeah. I didn't see it going that way. But there you have it. So I have a question for you guys.

[00:06:56] I want you to. I want you to picture yourself. Stepping into a time machine. And it only has one setting. The setting. You can. If you choose to. You can go back to January 24th. 25th. 2020. 2020. Now for three of us. That was. Had a very specific meaning to us. That would be voices of dentistry. 2020. Which. At the same time. Feels just like yesterday. And also feels like 20 years ago. To me. Um. Um. And I'm curious.

[00:07:25] If you could jump in that time machine. And you could tell yourself something about. Oh. I don't know. September 2020. And what's happened between now and then. What might you tell yourself? What would you tell yourself? So. I'm going to. Uh. I'm going to go with Mark first. Mark. What would you tell yourself? What. Is there anything. Is there anything you can say to warn yourself. For what's coming? You posed this question to me. Before we got on. But. I'm caught almost. Uh. With not much to say. I would definitely.

[00:07:55] Implore myself to. Buy some Tesla stock. I was going to say the same thing. I was going to put it all in Tesla. Yeah. Uh. But. But no. I. 20. Uh. January 2020. I think. I think that I would probably. Knowing what I know now. I would probably say. Hey dude. You don't have to travel so much. Cause I've. I've canceled 30 trips. Since this thing started. Going into February of next year. 30 total trips. And.

[00:08:26] You know. It's. It's significantly increased the quality of my. Personal life. Um. And. It hasn't significantly decreased. Momentum that I've had in. In business. I guess. Um. Interesting. So I think it was. I think there's a lot of. Oh. Maybe a little bit of a scarcity. Kind of. Feeling that. If I don't get out there. And I'm not. At three shows a month. And two dental schools. Then.

[00:08:55] I'm going to lose my mojo. And. Lose my. Momentum. And. The business will fail. But. That hasn't happened. That's the biggest realization. That I've come up with. Um. As far as the dental practice goes. Um. In addition to. You know. That business. Not suffering. I fell. Kind of back in love with clinical dentistry again. Started going to moody classes. And hanging out with a bunch of like. Um. Some. Some pretty. You know. High level clinicians. And.

[00:09:26] I recaptured my love for. For surgery. So. Uh. I think I would just. Tell myself to. Just go ahead and sign up for all the surgical courses. And don't worry about. Nice. Don't worry if you're not out of town every weekend. Nice. Brad. What would you do? What would you tell yourself at the end of January? Is there anything you. You'd give. Give yourself advice on. Don't do it. It's not. Not worth it. Just. Be done. Just be done. Quit. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just walk away.

[00:09:54] I'd give myself that advice like almost every day all the time though. Really? Yeah. Truthfully just. Kind of like Mark said. Just. Just enjoy the ride. You know. Quit. Quit trying to plan so much maybe. But. It's. Definitely been an interesting. You know. Seven. Eight months. Yeah. It has. Yeah. It has. It's a crazy long one. Jason. What would you. What would you tell yourself? Looking at yourself. Relatively hungover. On the second day of voice of dentistry.

[00:10:22] Grabbing yourself by the shoulders and shaking yourself. What would you tell yourself? Only slightly. I mean I had been let. I had been letting a lot of stuff slide in the business. And kind of with the expectation that you could always fall back on something. Even if you're. Got. Got too many expenditures. And. And the cash flow wasn't. What it. What it should be. Um. But then COVID comes around and you get. Get smacked pretty hard. And you realize you don't have as much of a. Nest egg as you. You should have. Um. So that's.

[00:10:52] That's kind of a recurring thing for me. It's like. God. I really should have buckled down. And. Paid more attention to all this stuff. But I didn't. And now this is when it comes. Comes home to roost. Sure. You gotta work that much harder to make it up. Um. And I would have. Bought a lot of real estate in Florida. As all the New Yorker. Flee. That's right. Triple the value. All right. So mine's a little different. Mine's almost the exact opposite of Mark's. Because I literally have. Been.

[00:11:22] I have not left. Like. I've not left home. Outside of going up north. Which isn't very far from home. Since. I don't know. I would have traveled. Like. I would. Okay. On. In February. I would have either produced. Worked a lot more. Or traveled a lot more. Because I feel like. I feel like I've been home a lot. For the last six months. I haven't been able to go anywhere. Like. And. And it's not looking good. Uh. My wife has. She's real fearful. Of travel. I found this out last week. Real fearful. More so than I knew. Like.

[00:11:52] I live with her yet. I didn't realize how much she was worried about this. Because I started. I started trying to book some stuff. And she's like. You can't go to those big cities. And so. The story is. I would have. I would have just gotten some travel in. Or. Cranked it out a little bit more in February. Not knowing. Right. That's. That's about the only thing I could say. For myself. I will. Either that. Or invent. One of those goofy suction unit things. That goes. In front of the patient's head. Invent that really quick. And get a whole bunch of them ready to sell. I would say. That would be. That would be better than your test. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:12:21] But I would put some very cool metallic. Like. On the outer. So. That's right. Irresist. Irresistible to dentists. Basically. That's what you have to do. And. Charge like $4,000 for it. That's what I do. DeLorean stainless steel. DeLorean stainless steel. Yeah. Exactly. You know you would. You know you would. I email you the prototype. You're like. I'm in. I'm in. All right. So. I got my zip up enclosure out in the garage. That I. Bought from Lowe's. That I was going to. Put a plastic zip up wall. In every operatory. Yeah. It's a.

[00:12:51] There are some people that did too. Just so you know. You are not crazy to have thought that. I mean. There are. I think it's crazy if they did that. But you are not crazy to have thought that. I still wear a trash trash bag around my head when I go to sleep. Just. I tinfoil. Also. Tinfoil. It's good. All right. Second question. This one's a little bit cheerier. Little. Little cheerier. So what good stuff has come out of COVID in the COVID era shutdown. And. That you wouldn't have expected. Like what. What stuff. Surprises you.

[00:13:21] After these last six or eight months or whatever. You know. Since around that time. What. What's something that. Surprised you. Brad. What surprised you that was good that came out of this. Getting to spend a lot more time with the family. I've got three kids. 13. Now five. And three. And so getting to spend more time with them. My 13 year old lives about a two hour drive away. So we got to have her up at our house a lot more. With schools being shut down. You know. Instead of having her every other weekend. It was. You know. We'd have her four days every other weekend. Instead of two. And then.

[00:13:51] Just not at the office as much. So. Did a lot of fishing with the kids. A lot of hiking. Again. Lucky to live. You know. Near the Buffalo National River. Lots of really good hiking for us. And fishing. And just being outside. It was. That was nice. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of outside stuff actually has been. Because that was one of the only things you could really do for a while there. Yeah. And we're seeing a big influx of people from the bigger city wanting to move down here. I think COVID has made people realize that. Hey.

[00:14:20] I don't want my house to be 10 feet from my neighbors anymore. I want to have two, three, four, five acres and get out a little bit more. And so we're seeing a fairly big influx of people from, you know, for us, the metro area of northwest Arkansas and Little Rock and all that. I think moving to rural Arkansas. Interesting. Interesting. Okay. Jason, what good stuff came out of this that would have surprised you maybe back in January? I will say Lake Heber Springs in Arkansas is probably one of the best places in the country.

[00:14:48] It's an unknown, untapped. Yeah. Until now. This is the Dental Hacks podcast, man. Now everyone's going to know about it. That's actually where I was this weekend. My in-laws have a lake house down there. And it's about an hour and 15 from us. So we go down there fairly often to hang out with them. It's beautiful. It was a dammed river. And there's actually a village or a town at the bottom of the lake. And people go scuba diving down there to the old town that was flooded.

[00:15:17] I think JFK took care of that. But like Brad said, being outside, you know, I was every day this COVID happened, the shutdown happened. I pretty much just turned off the news and just went outside and sat and just went out and played with the kids. And rode bikes and did different things. There would never be another time where I had to take two months off or however many months like that off.

[00:15:44] So that was a very rare occasion to have that much time with the kids. Yeah. Yeah, it was. During that time. And I just enjoyed the no traffic. We live on a main road and there was no cars for however long. And even that's been a blessing just continuing on because as we go back to the office, there's no traffic. And it used to be and we don't live that far, but it'd be an hour drive home afterwards because everybody was fleeing the city.

[00:16:12] But now we go in and in and out and back home and no fuss, no muss. Nice. Nice. Mark, what's what's something? What are some things that surprised you that were actually good after all this? Yeah. I mean, at first blush, it seemed like bad news, but we lost. I lost some really seasoned team members. I lost a regional manager and two office managers within a week and a half of one another.

[00:16:39] Two of them we let go and one of them up and quit. But we're talking people that have been with me for 12 years, 15 years, 17 years, respectively. And, you know, it's funny. Two of them that we let go. The time off gave me some reflective time that they were actually I feel like they were kind of people that were holding the practices that they were working in back.

[00:17:07] And just being able to pull back and just just not being kind of in the whirlwind of everything, realizing that there were some things that made them not a great culture fit. And I was sticking with them out of loyalty because they've been with me for so long. So having those three people leave has has been it's been just a huge weight off of the practices. They're all thriving now and people are much happier. It's been great for the culture.

[00:17:35] So that was something that surprised me that I don't think ever would have happened unless I had time to to be away from the practices and do some soul searching and and assessing of what was actually happening in the practices. And then, you know, I kind of talked about the benefits of not having to travel so much, just kind of got used to it. You know, I've been I've been traveling.

[00:18:00] 225, 230 days a year for the last seven, eight years and just unplugging that completely was is quite nice. I don't think I'll ever go back to that kind of schedule again. Time for the Tupac hologram. There you go. There you go. Hologram projector basement, man. Yeah, it works. Exactly. I I you guys really are super excited to have spent a lot of time with your family.

[00:18:27] I I found myself needing to get away from them. Actually, it was mostly during the the homeschooling aspects of things. I just that was the worst thing that ever happened to me. I swear to God, I'm so glad like my kids are back to school in person right now. Thank God for that. They are in person in person. Yeah. Spitting on each other. It's the best. Awesome. The best mask. Yeah. You know what, man? You know, so well, so far they've been back for a week. We'll see. I still have a feeling they're going to get shut down.

[00:18:56] But every single patient I've asked about that. So you think they're going to close? Oh, yeah. Close. Close down. Give a couple of weeks. So and literally the governor actually said that high school football could happen like last week. They're still going to shut the schools down. I'm almost sure. But in any case, I found myself having to get away from them come March, you know, March when we got really shut down March, April. And I so I lost I ran every day for 92 days and I lost 40 some pounds. So that's the best thing that happened to me.

[00:19:23] I mean, we actually the the everyone who's listening to the podcast knows we had a 200 year flood like a bunch of dams broke just north of us like that. That was crazy. And then I got hit by a truck in June. So I've I've had it's been a crazy. Yeah, you know, that's all. It's been a crazy several months. But I still I'm kind of I mean, like, I won't lie to you, like losing that much weight after carrying around for as long as I have is life changing. It is absolutely life changing.

[00:19:52] If you haven't ever been that heavy. Jason put that photo up in the Dental Hacks Nation earlier this week. Like I dude, I never knew I never knew you were like me or even heavier than me. I never knew that you're like a different. You know what I'm talking about is a different. And I didn't know I was heavy until I saw pictures. I know. Well, I know when I'm getting heavy when I can't stand to be in pictures. That's what it is. Like if I have to look at myself at a picture like that, it's terrible. So it's I mean, it's been life changing. It really has. And I mean, I've lost weight like this before, but I couldn't keep it off.

[00:20:20] So right now I feel like, you know, you're going to have to I'm not I'm not going back there. So you have to you have to gain 100 pounds. Yeah. So you can understand what our plight was. You got to do that. I want to see. I'm actually document every step of the way. I feel like I feel like we could even just have Mark come out at voice of dentistry in a fat suit. Like, because, you know, they're really convincing. Right. It'd be great. Like, actually, like he could Jason and I could be on stage and Mark could come out. It'd be awesome. Great.

[00:20:50] And no one will say anything. That'll be the best part. Like, like everyone's out there like, welcome to shoot. Welcome, Mark. And no one says anything. And Mark does. He totally plays it the whole time. This has been a sensitivity moment with Alan. Oh, yes. I would like that. I would really like that. Well, congratulations, man. That's huge. That's huge. And you're just a better you're just a better dad. I would just go into the office even if I was by myself to do other things and not be

[00:21:16] at home so my wife could do those things. Do the heavy lifting. No, exactly. No, I get it. You don't even have to be subtle with me, man. You know, I get it. I completely get it. And it's on some level, I like being home with the boys, but I also know that when I've had my fill, I got to get out. And that was beautiful because I, so I'd go run, you know, my ankle's completely shot now. I can't really do that now. But Mark, slide that bookcase out of the way so we can see the secret door where you can put the runaway door.

[00:21:45] I actually have like a, like a, like a bat pole that goes down to the bat cave. I can like that and just run out the back. And you come out of robins like green under the back of it. I do. You know it, man. Of course, that's the whole reason to have the pole, man. Yeah. Yeah. You know. All right. So I want to come back to the actual reason we have this, this wild pairing of Mark and Brad on the show. This esteemed panel. This esteemed panel. This is a panel that Jason and I have, have no real experience with, with the things that

[00:22:14] Brad and Mark have both. I don't know how to put it in a subtle way. So I won't both Brad and Mark had their faces bashed in on, on some level. And as dentists have also had their faces kind of reconstructed. And so I think Mark's happened before Brad's did. Brad is now giving us the, yeah, Brad's, the Arkansas love time. Is that a, is that a belt blast? No, that's a, I'm trying to think.

[00:22:44] This is a, shoot, 12 year old. It was an Andrews bar. Okay. And so I lost a lot of bone with mine. But, um, were you, Brett, Brett, were you already, this is, yeah. Nice. He can whistle through that hole. I tell you. So, so. Inflat retained, looks like. Yeah. I got four on top, two on bottom. Okay. So we're going to get into this stuff. Mark, I want you to tell your story from the beginning. Cause I think yours happened long before Brad's did. Probably before I was born. Yeah. It could be.

[00:23:14] I mean, Mark, Mark has given this, this present. I've seen his presentation several times and I cringe each time he gives the presentation cause he's got the photos from his high school. I'm pissed that both of them are more handsome than I am. I know, right? I haven't had anything happen to my face. And they're way better looking. What is up with that? This is just where I showed up in the morning. I did shave. I can show you my scars a little bit better. All right, Mark. I want to hear it. Tell us, tell us what the heck happened to you. Yeah. 16 years old, brand new high school, Agora Hills, California.

[00:23:43] It's like my very first varsity baseball game was a starting left fielder. And I had left a school that had a much deeper outfield. It was the outfield in my, my previous school is 150 feet deeper in left field. And they had, they call that in storytelling. They call that foreshadowing. Yes, exactly. Celebrate the foreshadow. Yeah.

[00:24:09] And there was no, there was no, um, warning track. There was no pads on the fence, nothing like that. And there was at my previous high school. So we actually do drills off of our padded fence where they'd throw the ball or they'd use a pitching machine and we'd play it off the fence. You know, your, your foot hits the warning track. You know, you have one more step and you put your, you put your off hand out and play it off the fence. And I was just waiting, you know, okay.

[00:24:38] So big kid gets up, my pitcher throws him a meatball shoulder, shoulder height. And he just jacks it over to me. And I just get on my horse and start sprinting towards the left field fence, waiting for my foot to hit the warning track to play it off the fence. And it never happened. I just ran face first into the fence, but we're talking. So the LA times was there. We had, we had two like major league prospects on my team.

[00:25:04] So there was like the traveling circus that would follow us around the sports reporters and scouts and not for me, but for two other teammates of mine. Um, and, uh, so yeah, they got frame by frame. Boom. Um, and, uh, yeah, I broke my upper jaw. I lost eight and nine were a volst immediately. Um, seven and 10 were broken off kind of fair, like maybe 70% of them were gone.

[00:25:33] And then six and 11 were class two mobility. So it was, it was a massive, massive collision. Um, so yeah, that was, that was my face wrecking story. So you were 16. So that puts you back into the, probably into the eighties. Is that right? I mean, that was probably the late eighties that that happened. Yep. Exactly. Okay. Okay. So let's, I'm going to go to Brad now. Brad, I want to, I want you to tell us how it happened. And then we're going to go back. We're talking about how you guys got your faces fixed up and now you're so beautiful.

[00:26:01] So mine was the summer of 2007. I was working at a Christian sports and activities camp in Rogers, Arkansas called Camp War Eagle. And I was a ski boat driver. So every morning I would get up, I would go get in my boat. We'd go fill it up with gas and I would pull these kids on whiteboard skis, tubes, whatever. And I teach them how to do whatever water sport they're wanting to do. And that was all summer for me.

[00:26:27] And so come the last day that kids were going to be at camp, it was August 10th. We go and our boss, Josh, who we called him the Commodore because we were this big naval fleet of ski boats. And so Commodore Josh said, Hey, if I want to go early, y'all can go fill up. And then y'all can spend the morning whiteboarding until the kids get out here. And so I drew the short straw of going by myself. We typically, there was two of us per boat.

[00:26:56] And so I drew the short straw of, Hey, you go run all the way, fill up with gas and then meet everybody else. And we'll wake board up and get gas in other boats. And so Northwest Arkansas, the White River, this real curly river chain of lakes, kind of like Groove's Ferry that Jason was talking about. I'm running at 40, 50 miles an hour in this ski boat. And I have one more turn left to get to the marina.

[00:27:22] And for some reason, I don't turn the boat. I passed out, blacked out, retrograde amnesia, something I don't know. And I wake up and my boat is crinkled and floating in the water. And there's water skis and white boards out in the water. And I kind of reach up to my face like this and pull back. And there's just blood everywhere and look down. And it's all over my life jacket. And get the boat mirror and kind of look at my face.

[00:27:50] And maxilla is just set back. Ended up at, I had a Lafort 1 in my maxilla. Broke my mandible in two spots. You can kind of see I had one fracture that came straight up. And the other fracture came out and through the midline there. I have nine teeth, six on top, three on bottom. I ended up losing one more in maxilla through all of it. Broke my nose, broke my shoulder, broke a rib, and broke my femur.

[00:28:21] Wow. You win. Jesus was not at the wheel at that time. No, not that day. I don't subscribe to Texas dentistry and don't let Jesus take the wheel of things like that. So funny thing of mine. So it happens. And my maxilla is set back. I'm getting blood in my mouth. I cannot talk. I'm floating in this boat at 630 in the morning. And so we had two-way radios.

[00:28:49] And so I hold down the talk button on the radio and use the horn on the boat to use Morse code for SOS. Oh, wow. Dot, dot, dot, dash, dash, dash, dot, dot, dot is Morse code for SOS. Wow. So I just do that over and over until the other boat gets there. Another boat comes and picks me up. They call 911 on the cell phone. As counselors, we weren't allowed to have our cell phones with us. This was back in 07. I mean, not everybody had. It was still flip phones back then.

[00:29:18] And so they drive me to the marina, call 911. And so they get there. And so my boss kind of knows the history. So two years prior to this, I actually broke my neck playing touch football outside my dorm room. And so they know I have this history of cervical fusion. And so... Well, I thought you were going to say a history of just horrible luck. Yeah. So, yeah, that too. That too.

[00:29:43] So they start trying to throw this C-spine scholar on me and push it on this fracture over here. And I finally had to punch the EMT in the chest and kind of show them that all this was wrong before they would leave me alone. Oh, wow. And in and out of consciousness at this point. Sure. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Wow. It was a fun day. Yeah. So obviously, Mark was not in dental school at 16. I don't think. He's not that kind of a Doogie Howser guy.

[00:30:13] If I remember correctly, the story was kind of the opposite of that, really. Yeah. It was much later. But you were, Brad, were you in college at that point? Yep. So this was between sophomore and junior year of college. I was studying for the DAT this summer. That was any time I had at camp. I had my Kaplan DAT book that was that day. I ended up taking the DAT like three weeks after this accident. So... A lot of the anatomy was real sharp in your mind at that point. Yeah. It's pretty fresh there.

[00:30:41] I knew exactly what I had effed up. Yeah. Oh, wow. Dude, that is... Bad one. It was pretty good. And so I ended up with two implants down here, all sorts of surgeries. It was about an 18-month process to get me to completion. Sure. Well, I want to talk about that. I want to talk about that a little later. I want to go back to Mark here because this is the best the 80s have to offer at this point. Obviously, implant... I am the best that the 80s have. Clearly. Clearly.

[00:31:11] It doesn't even need to be said, really. But so, I mean, implant dentistry was not then what it is now. So I'm curious about... Okay, you got your face smashed in. I'm assuming your maxilla was broken too. Is that right? Did you lose a lot of bone or not really? I lost a ton of bone, yes. Okay. My maxilla was broken. It was a pretty good fracture. But what they did was orthowire from...

[00:31:38] They orthowired six, seven, ten, and eleven together. Okay. And I mean, this was the first... This was the second week that I was at this school. Yeah. There was no flipper or anything. I was just... I was just orthowire with vacant front teeth with the front lip caving in for three and a half months at a brand new school. Mm-hmm. But after things kind of split up... Chicks dig that. Chicks dig that. Yeah. It was... I made quite the impact. Yeah.

[00:32:05] And so they endowed all of the remaining teeth. And they built up seven and ten and bridged seven to ten. They didn't double the butt. They bridged seven to ten. Oh, wow. And I had that bridge for... Strangely enough, it broke after one summit on a Saturday night right after the event was over. Oh, I heard that story.

[00:32:34] So your bridge lasted until a few years ago, basically. Is that right? Yeah. It lasted until, I want to say, five years ago. Yeah. Wow. And then it broke off at the gum wine. I ate a cold French fry at 10 o'clock at night after the summit. Can you imagine? I mean, just put yourself at VOD. And if that would have broken a day earlier and you had to show up to VOD with missing seven through ten and no prosthetic, that would have been... And Moody being there, too. Yeah, right. Like adding insult to injury, you got Moody there.

[00:33:04] That would be, yeah, for sure. So I had to... That night, the Saturday of that night, I drove back to San Diego. And Jason Campbell's a really excellent implantologist. So he took the two root tips out and put immediate placement of two implants in there and did a block graft across the front there because we thought we were going to try to place two more implants. It didn't happen. So there's an implant bridge there now.

[00:33:33] But it was a year and a half in Valplast partial. Yep. I remember that. I remember that. You can still hear the episodes of your podcast. You can hear that when it's in. It's very weird. You had a lish. You like popsicles? You like popsicles? So, okay. So that's really interesting. So the bridge actually lasted like you didn't know that bridge damn thing at that point because it had been in there for a long time. Yeah, it had been in there for, yeah. Okay. 20-something years, right?

[00:34:02] And so the solution ended up being a block graft, some implants, and a bridge. And that's where you're at right now. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to keep the bridge. Obviously, there's no need to dig this thing out and try to sink two more implants when this is working great. No, that's really interesting. Okay. Okay. So Brad. You get a discount on that Moody course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you could have been not only a surgeon come in the second day. And, you know, you could just be a patient. Just be a patient as well. Yeah. Don't kid yourself. He'd do that in a second. He would.

[00:34:32] He would. All right. So Brad, tell us a little. So you basically went in and they probably had to. What was the surgical, like, what did they start with? I mean, because you had mandible, you had maxillin', you had your face smashed. And what did they do first? First day was closing me. You can kind of see that scar. Yeah. Had about a half dollar size hole in my lip there. Had one other puncture. I can't remember which side it was on. I think it was on the right side. Pretty good puncture wound back here. He's indicating on the mandible, too.

[00:35:01] Like, as much as what I'm used to hearing about from you is the maxillin'. The mandible was busted, too. Oh, yeah. It was busted pretty good. I'll show you an extra here. You may be able to appreciate it on my phone. I can text you this picture, Al, if you want to put it in. We'll put it in the show notes. Oh, my God. Look at the distance they had to close on the hand. That's a lot of hardware. Oh, man. On your rights. Oh, my God. Do you have any paresthesia, Brad? Yeah. I'm numb from midline to about the corner of my mouth. If I push right here, I feel it right here.

[00:35:30] So, you know, it's definitely weird. Weird nerve processes going on with me. Yeah. So, for me, you know, first day was just kind of closing me up, you know, ER-type surgery stuff. Mm-hmm. Which, one of the weird things, the ENT that did my surgery, I actually had his son in my cabin at camp. Oh, wow. So, he kind of knew who I was, and that was kind of a weird, you know, he just drew my name, you know, just being on call.

[00:35:57] He got the straw doing it, but it's kind of a neat coincidence there. Second day was actually going in and doing the surgery, putting me back together. Did that surgery. Ended up having to have a trach tube. You can kind of see a little scar there. Nice. Trach tube was in there. Did your cervical fusion go in the front, too? I have one. Yeah, I've got one. I don't know. You probably can't see it. It's a pretty minuscule scar right over there, I think, from where it was.

[00:36:24] But it's nowhere near as bad as my trach scar. This is actually a revised trach scar that they went in because it scarred to my trachea. And so, they revised that probably two years later when they ended up doing a nose revision on me, too. Stayed in the hospital for a few days. One day, I was just hanging out there. The nurse came in to clean my trach tube out. Got to coughing and coughed the whole trach tube out. So, at that point, the ENT doctor comes in and goes, well, you know, you're breathing.

[00:36:54] Okay, let's just leave it out. Let you heal up. So, it was a blessing in disguise to cough this thing out. Came home, went to college, you know, four days later and never missed a day class. Did my whole, you know, 18, 19 hours of being a pre-dental biology major, you know, taking organic and biochem. Did you go to school with, like, no teeth and your face all bashed in, basically? I did.

[00:37:19] So, I was wired shut for seven months and then had elastics for two – or not seven months, seven weeks. Okay. Then had elastics for two weeks after that. And you're really self-conscious at first. And then after a little bit of it, you really just don't give a f***. And you're going to have to leave me there, but I'm sorry.

[00:37:37] And so, you know, after we got me unwired, go with a flipper partial for a while, going through perio surgery to get some more keratinized gingiva there, going through bone grafts, harvesting ramus bone to try to rebuild some stuff here, which that is by far the worst surgery I have ever had done, harvesting ramus bone. That was the most painful and the worst recovery? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. You know, I don't bruise. You could punch me in the face and I wouldn't bruise.

[00:38:07] And I came out of that surgery looking like you just beat the living daylights out of me with a two-by-four. Where did they put that bone, Brad? Mostly in the maxilla, a little bit down here in the mandible, but pretty much in the maxilla. I lost almost all vertical bone there. I mean, pretty much to the base of my nose. And so, just trying to get a little bit more bone there so that we could sink some screws in it at a later date. Heal up from those, you know, four or five, six months of healing every time you have a surgery.

[00:38:32] And, you know, finally, 18 months later, we're able to go in and attach some teeth to these implants that I've finally gotten and get a smile back. But, you know, all through this, you know, for the most part, I really didn't care to, you know, walk around college without teeth in. So. You were that guy. I really got to be that guy. And that was kind of the running joke in dental school was, let's see if we can get Brad drunk enough to take his teeth out. Yeah.

[00:39:01] Which my wife loves me for that. Yeah. I'm sure. Sure. So, the question is, with all that you went through, this was all before dental school. So, like, in going through dental school, you must have had, like, a really, both you guys actually must have had a really interesting take on dental school. Because you've been through the ringer, man. Yet there isn't, there isn't a specialty that you guys weren't familiar with. So, I don't know. Did you ever end up having any endo, Brad? No, I never had any endo. I have one tooth. Because you never had anything they could save.

[00:39:30] I have one tooth that's number five that I've got. I cracked it, ended up with a crown on it. And it's kind of one of those every now and then I'll start to get a twinge in it and I'll go, oh, it's going to be time to go endo. And then it goes away and stays away for a year. Okay. So, it's just kind of limping itself along. But Mark was with an endodontist and a prosthodontist then probably, I'm assuming. Is that who worked on you in the beginning? Yeah. We had a prosthodontist. We had a plastic surgeon. Okay. That's why you're so happy. Yeah. There you go. That's right. Cheater.

[00:40:01] But, I mean, my accident was the reason that I went to dental school. I had no exposure. I mean, I had no desire to be a dentist prior to this. It just really sparked my interest that year of that reconstruction. Sparked my interest and that's why it kind of changed the course of my life. Tell me about what sparked your interest though because wasn't it like, I mean, I've had some dental work done. I was an ortho for God knows how long because I was the least compliant orthodontics patient in the entire world.

[00:40:31] I was the worst. Literally, my dad was doing my ortho and I literally came to him. I pulled a band off with a bit of honey. A bit of honey. Orthodontists are just, they're literally having a seizure right now. But a bit of honey? And if there's anyone who should know better, anyhow. Roger. Roger wanted to ring your neck. Yeah. Well, yeah. There were a lot of times. I will say this though. He had a, on those band seating instruments where you kind of have them kind of bite down on the band.

[00:41:00] And he's had a band seating instrument slip twice in his life and it cut the patient up really good. Both times, this guy, this guy. That said, I've only had one bleach accident my entire life doing endo and guess who it was on? Your dad? Yeah. Thank God it was my dad. Yeah. Because otherwise, he didn't sue me. He did go to work the next day with, it looked like he'd been hit with a bat because his face was all swollen up for him. So yeah.

[00:41:27] So we've kind of done good things to each other over the years, really. So in any case, so you had an orthodontist involved, Mark, as well as a pros and endo. Yeah. I mean, I had ortho up until about maybe eight months prior to that. I just had my ortho off. Oh, jeez. Oh, my gosh. I knocked all my teeth out. Oh, my gosh. Oh, man. That's horrifying. Because you may not have had so much damage had you had an orthodontic appliance in possibly.

[00:41:56] It would have been a lot of soft tissue damage probably, but who knows, man? Yeah. Yeah. But having gone through ortho and regular general dentistry prior to that did not interest me. I was not interested. But I thought it was the reconstruction part that was cool. The fact that they were able to save those teeth. And they were super mobile. And they're still in there. At least canines are. I just found it fascinating.

[00:42:25] And the team that helped put me all back together was super cool. I was that patient that was asking all the questions. Sure. Yeah. By the end of all of it, I was like, I'm going to try for dental school. Interesting. You guys were both probably like the best dental patients ever, too. By the time you've gone through all that, there's probably nothing that scares you at that point. No. No. I mean, I've had it all. I do not have great teeth. But, Brad, I'm curious. Are you... Is that your...

[00:42:54] Is that what you're going to settle with as far as restorations? I'm pretty happy with it. You know, we talked about doing single crowns on the implants or, you know, doing a couple for canines and some bridges. And I'm just missing so much bone that for aesthetic purposes, we opted for this just to try to build up my lip volume. Yeah. I'm happy with it. I can't bite an apple on the left side. It will dislodge it. So, I've had to train myself how to eat things.

[00:43:25] And so, I don't have a lot of sympathy for denture patients who complain about having to learn how to eat because I've done it. I mean, you can do it. You just have to learn how to do it. Have you ever whipped it out right in front of a patient just to show them, like, to suck it up? I don't know if I've whipped it out. Well, you know, if you took that out of context. Sorry, D. Little blazing saddles. I can't remember if I actually whipped it out.

[00:43:53] But I had one lady who she was just, you know, real hateful about, you know, you have no idea what I'm going through with this. I remember frankly telling her, say, you know, you need to check yourself real quick. I can't remember if I took the teeth out or I just told her about it or what. But I've definitely told many patients about it. I've used that, too, a lot. Yeah. The whining patients. It's like, man, I'm missing all four of my front teeth.

[00:44:21] It makes me have a lot of sympathy for a lot of people until they take it too far. And then I lose every ounce of sympathy for any of them. I mean, it's just, it's bad sometimes. I'm real cynical. Yeah, I'm going to use that on my next patient. I know a guy. I know a guy. I know two guys. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and you do actually get used to something removable. It's not the end of the world. Like I said, I had a valve pass for a year and a half.

[00:44:51] And I was a little whistly, but it was fine. I had this cheap acrylic flipper with Rottweire ball clasp that I wore for 18 months. And the midline was off because I couldn't fit the right number of teeth in there. And look, Tom Cruise's midline is off and it's his own teeth. And has it hurt his career? Not really. Right. My dad. Have you ever seen that, that, that side-by-side picture of him in, um. Outsiders.

[00:45:21] The Outsiders. His first movie. Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, he was gangly. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. He was a mess. So Brad, when you were in dental school, I mean, you had to literally have been an example for like a lot of stuff there. Like, like the reality is, I mean, you really said, you really had seen almost everything at that point. I just wonder, dental school must've been a trip for you because literally there's almost nothing they could talk about that you hadn't experienced or had some kind of an angle on. Yeah.

[00:45:51] I mean, it was, like you say, endo was really the only specialty I've yet to be treated by and I'm kind of flirting with doing it and eventually I'll have them. Get the punch card, man. I mean, go for, go for the trifecta. So I didn't knock out, but you know, I've had oral surgery, had perio, hadn't really gone through process. I was lucky enough. My brother had finished dental school about two years prior to my accident. And so he did all my restorative work. Oh wow. Awesome. It's pretty handy.

[00:46:19] And so, you know, got to be real intimately involved with that and, you know, he's taken care of me since. So. Wow. Wow. That's, that's, I didn't, I didn't expect it to go that way. I will say this. I took a wisdom tooth out on my sister. That's pretty awesome. My kids aren't quite old enough to really need anything major. No, I did ortho on my daughter, which she is, you know, real simple, just kind of class one crowding. I don't know what's going to come when it's time to, you know, take out thirds or do anything

[00:46:49] major on my kids or anybody, you know, close to me. I don't know how that's going to go. But yeah, I, she had a dry socket and I went to Utah. So I literally left, I literally left and she got a dry socket. Geographic success. Yeah, exactly. I, and I, I didn't know anything. They didn't call me or anything. And I actually took a wisdom tooth out of my dad just a couple of years ago too. So I, I, like I said, I have disfigured my family over the years pretty well. I'm impressed that your brother came up with it. It looks pretty good.

[00:47:15] But honestly, it's a, um, oral surgeon did a great job dropping the implants on me. Um, all Nobel stuff. Of course, this is back early before guided surgery, I think was much of a thing. Um, you know, freehand, he's just placing them based off of the flipper they had. Well, you, you lost, um, when, if you get a chance to look at the x-ray, he's going to give us, you lost a lot of bone. I don't know where they guide that guide that into your brain, man. Yeah. Flurry, your nose. That is insane. Tell me about what they had to do. Your nose, Brad.

[00:47:44] Um, so just where the nose is broken, um, my septum, I'm trying to think which direction. I think it's actually deviated to the right like this and it's actually fused. I'm blanking on anatomy here. All the oral surgeons are going to make fun of me. You're not knowing what I mean, but the septum is actually fused to the outer, uh, bubble there of my nose. And so they did a revision of that, trying to open it up just because I have such restricted breathing there and it helped a little bit, but I still can't breathe through my nose worth of crap.

[00:48:12] And so I'm a mouth breather at night, which my wife loves that. I snore all the time because of it. So it's a lot of fun. Do you take it out at night? Do you take that? Do you take your teeth out at night? I did it first and I just don't anymore. You know, I'll take it out after I go to, go to the bathroom, wash it out, brush it a couple of times a day. They just, I just really just don't care anymore. And honestly, that's kind of where I've gotten, you know, I was kind of like Mark. I'd gone through ortho twice.

[00:48:40] I had a really great looking set of teeth and then you go and knock them out and it really kills your motivation to care for your teeth anymore. And I'm getting better about it as I get a little bit older, but you know, it, it really deflates you. I mean, it's just, just like, you know, what, what's the point? I mean, you know, I've, I've already lost 10 of my teeth, you know, I'm missing four thirds. So now I'm down to 14 out of 32 are gone.

[00:49:04] I mean, so I am, I am blown away that you said that is not what I was expecting. Wow. And no shame, man. Like I have, I have 32 teeth. I have, I have all of my teeth. I have room for more. I'm literally, I've looked in there. Jason's been there. It's like, well, I got in dental school. They literally did not in the dental school. They didn't have a tray big enough for my mouth. They had to make a custom tray to take a fucking alginate. He can have a hippopotamus tooth in there.

[00:49:34] It is insane. It really is. And I do say that that is, everyone's got their own. You guys talk about your denture patients or your patients have been through this. Whenever I'm doing an exam and people have all their wisdom teeth, I always explain that there's just some people in the world that are better than other people. And the ones that have all their wisdom teeth are better than other people. That's like the running joke forever. But I, I really interesting. So you lost them through trauma and you literally say that the motivation to take care of them is less so because you lost. That's crazy. And Mark, you sort of indicated that a little bit too.

[00:50:01] Like it was, it was motivation wise was really hard after you went through all the ortho and all that stuff. Yeah. It's funny. I don't know if you agree with this, Brad, but like when I was in a flipper, you actually get used to it. It's not, it's not like I was going down the days. It's, it's, it's actually doable. As long as you look decent in pictures and you know, it's, it's, I felt like I could have probably stayed in a flipper for the rest of my life. I didn't, I, it wouldn't have been ideal, but I could have tolerated it.

[00:50:29] Uh, so I, that's why I'm nodding when Brad says that it's like, I kind of get it. I kind of get it after you've been through it. It's like, yeah. And it makes me, you know, I kind of sympathize or I understand where these people that, you know, you extract a first molar on them and then six months later, you're taking out another tooth. Then four months later, it's another tooth. And I can understand how these people, it snowballs on them because you lose one and she's like, well, you know, I've lost one. What's, what's the worst thing that's going to happen? I'm going to lose another tooth.

[00:50:56] And I, I can, I can understand where these people go with, with how this happens. It's interesting too. Cause you get, you get that where they're like, you know, I'm just going to wait until the next one. Or you get the one, they lose one tooth and they're like, I'm never losing another tooth. And of course, these are people that probably need to, these are people who, who have perio where they're going to lose teeth. And they're like, no matter what we have to save everything. And that's, that's a whole other story because they're traumatized by losing one. Well, this is interesting. I wasn't expecting you to say that.

[00:51:24] I can see the fork in the road there for people. There's really no, at least in my experience, there's not much middle ground there. It's usually they go one of two extremes, losing the one tooth. They never lose another one in their life. They're done or losing the one tooth. That's the first. And they're going to be a dentist in a couple of years. Wow. That's interesting. So what do you think, before we wrap this part of it, Mark, what do you think your experience having a, seen a lot of dentists, seen, had a lot of surgery, had a lot of stuff done?

[00:51:55] How do you think that affects the way that you treat patients? Like, like, do you think it, do you think it makes you, does it make you treat and plan differently? Does it make you, you relate to patients differently? How do you think it, it, it might, might've changed the way that you, you treat patients just knowing that with your experience? Well, I think I'm, I think I'm more empathetic. I'm, I'm, um, definitely able to, to build that into like the, the, the rapid trust build that you have to have, you know, if you're going to meet somebody for 15 minutes and then

[00:52:24] tell them that they need $15,000 worth of dental work, you got to be able to build report very, very quickly and trust very quickly. Um, and you can do that both ways, right? It's like, wow, you have 32 of your teeth and they're, they're looking pretty good. You need three crowns, but great job up to this point. In fact, you've done a lot better than me. You know, I'm missing four, four teeth and I've, I've had ortho, I've had root canals and you can look in here. I have three crowns. So you've had a lot less work than I have. You only need three crowns.

[00:52:53] It's not that big of a deal. Good job. You're even better than, than the dentist. So that's, that's helped a lot. And then, uh, and then people that need extensive work, it's like, Hey, I'm, I feel you. Yeah. I, you can be empathetic and say, I, I understand how you feel. I've been through a lot of work too. Not all of us were blessed with, with perfect teeth. So you can build trust with, and, you know, kind of rapport with them that way too. So it's been helpful. That's a really good take. I like that. Brad, what do you think?

[00:53:21] How, how has your experience changed the way that you relate to patients or how you might treat and plan or anything like that? I hadn't really changed my treatment planning much. It's very similar to Mark's. You know, you can really get on a patient's level with them who, you know, if it's somebody needing a full denture, if it's somebody who, you know, they had a root fracture on something, you've got to pull it and go back with an implant and, you know, able to tell them, you know, I've had this procedure done. It's uncomfortable for a couple of days. It's not the end of the world or Hey, you know, free gingival grafts suck because they're

[00:53:51] ripping out some chunk of skin from the roof of your mouth. You can have a pizza burn for 10 days while that heals. You know, maybe we should do some other things first before we go down that road. And then I think I may have chatted with you in the past about this, Al, but, you know, when I'm giving pain pills to people for, you know, doing tooth extractions, you know, when I had my, that Ramus grab done, they put me on Demerol. I mean, I had just God awful nightmares with it. After the first night, I never took another pill and, you know, I suffered through this taking ibuprofen and Tylenol.

[00:54:19] And I always tell people, you know, if I can do this, you know, you can handle me pulling this, you know, perio involved tooth with some ibuprofen, or I've gone to doing a lot of Toradol with people. And if they push back about narcotics, I go, you know, I've done it. You can do it. It'll be fine. That's interesting. Mark, did you have experience with, I mean, obviously your face was bashed in in the eighties. So you probably had, I mean, they probably had you on Demerol. I'm guessing like. I didn't take any pain medication even back then. Really? When you got your face bashed in?

[00:54:48] They tried to give me T3 and it got, it made me all itchy. So I was under the assumption that I was allergic to all that stuff. So I've, I've never taken anything but NSAIDs. I've had two back surgeries like, like Brad, I had a fusion and I took, I took Tylenol and I grew up. So once you start taking those on a regular basis, you find the itch is something you look forward to. I'll just say that right now. That's a little twist that I know, but I will say that I having had a little experience there, the itch is something, you know, it's going to work soon then. That's the story.

[00:55:16] I will say the Toradol after gotten hit by a truck, they put me on IV Toradol in the, in the ER. And I honestly think everyone should just be on IV Toradol all the time because it's, it's, it doesn't make you high at all, but like nothing hurts. Like nothing hurts. It was like when they moved, when they moved, seriously, I want, it's like those, those beer hats with the straw. They just need the IV thing. The problem is they, they took me off it. I felt like I broke my back. This isn't that big of a deal, you know?

[00:55:44] And then they took me off the Toradol IV and I'm like, wait a second here. This is something happened here. It's real bad on your belly. Yeah. And that's why, that's why the IV is good stuff. So I, yeah, I don't, that's, I didn't have to do any of that. They, they, they took me from Toradol to like 500 milligrams of Tylenol every six hours or whatever. It was quite a come down. I'll say that. That's a, but yeah, I mean, I will, it's interesting that they, with all the medications that they, they used to give, boy, they don't give much of that anymore. I think that's probably a good thing, but, but interesting. Interesting.

[00:56:14] So you guys both have experienced something that most dentists haven't. I think it'll be interesting. If you, if the listeners have any questions or comments, we'll kind of, we'll start a thread in the dental hacks nation. Cause I'd love to, like, there's probably questions that they might have that I haven't even thought of, but you guys have been through a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff that, that I think we're so used to being on the, the, the diagnosis and treatment side of it.

[00:56:39] I think it's kind of a kind of interesting to hear about the, the, the patient side of it. Did you, did you feel like, I guess the last question, did you feel like you knew what you were getting into? Did they, did, did the doctor side, did they explain well enough what you were, especially for you, Mark, you were like 16 or whatever. Did they tell you what was happening? Did you feel like you knew what was happening or, or what could they have done better? Um, palatal injections. They could have done those better.

[00:57:08] I still fricking remember the palatal injections from the, from the endo. Yeah. Oral surgeons suck at giving injections. I'm just going to throw this out there to all you oral surgeons, which most of your patients are probably out cold by the time you do it, but work on that. Y'all suck. Well, you know, and actually when you, by saying they suck, it would assume that they don't get you numb. The problem is, is the speed. Oh, they get you numb. And it's, you know, they're trying to... The speed at which they deliver anesthesia is, uh, like... Insanity.

[00:57:36] Like, it doesn't make you any cooler to get it in there faster. I'm just saying. I am just saying. It's just part of that. It's just part of that OS training kind of culture of turn and burn. I, we need to get out a hundred teeth today. And, uh, you know, I... Don't do that. Don't do that. Either that or every oral surgeon should allow another oral surgeon to do that to them just so they know what they're getting into because I, yeah, slow injections are where it's at. That's the best.

[00:58:02] The, like oral surgeons probably don't get that little thing from the patient going, you gave me a shot. I didn't feel anything. They probably don't get that very often. Right. Never. Exactly. Yeah. But yeah, I think, I think they did a pretty good job of telling me what was going on, what a bridge was, what a root canal was. I was clueless. I didn't have any idea. The only thing I had a couple of fillings and some ortho prior to that. So yeah, I think I, I think I walked, walked in and learned a lot. Yeah. Brad, did you feel like, did you feel like you knew it was happening?

[00:58:30] Um, for the most part, I kind of didn't because my dad's a dentist. And so he kind of took over everything going, Hey, this is what we're going to do. Cool. Okay. Okay. So, you know, a lot of it was not really explained to me a whole lot. You know, it was explained to dad, dad knew exactly what they're doing. And it was, you know, you trust your dad and just kind of go with whatever they tell you to do type deal. So it's yes and no. Yeah. With all the hardware you got in your head, man. I don't know that I'd want to know all that stuff.

[00:59:01] That's ignorance is bliss to a point. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, totally. Man, this is, this was really good. You guys, I appreciate that. We're not, we're not done yet, but I, I just, that's, I appreciate you. You guys telling your story and being like open to talk about it because it's like, I think a lot of dentists could, will benefit from hearing that side of it for sure. That was really interesting.

[00:59:19] So if you guys have any questions or comments for Mark or Brad, we'll, we'll start a thread on the show. When my voice goes funny and I say, go hack yourself. I say, well, I never, he does say this. He does say this. You like popsicles.

[00:59:49] So, so the go hack yourself segment for those, if, if Mark and Brad are not familiar, uh, is a segment where Jason and I talk about something we've been, uh, using in the office, like an instrument or a podcast we've been listening to, or a thing we've been eating or a thing we've been watching or listening to, or something like that. Uh, we do this every week and it's just sort of our recommendation segment. So, uh, Jason, I'm going to ask you to go first and go hack yourself. Me?

[01:00:18] Uh, obviously I've, I've stated this before on the podcast. I'm a big Joe Rogan fan. Um, and he had an episode on the other day and had Duncan Trussell on there, who is a standup comedian and they were talking and it was, it was pretty serious. A lot of times he has people on, I usually gauge, uh, how informative the episode is by how long it is, because usually if his episodes are like three, some hours long, I know that he's really getting into conversation.

[01:00:47] And this episode was five, some hours. So I, I've never seen one that, and I didn't know of Duncan Trussell that much, but I listened to it and the, probably about the first 20 minutes are about the most honest recap of politics and everything that's gone on in the world. And in the past year with, uh, obviously, obviously Joe Rogan is a little more progressive

[01:01:12] and, um, liberal in his views, but I think it's probably the most honest thing I've heard about politics, um, in the, in the recent past. And it was both of those guys were a little more progressive, but they talked about the fact that, uh, more conservative people are kind of viewed as not having any sympathy or any, anything for anybody. And, and, you know, obviously that's not true.

[01:01:39] Obviously we're all humans and it really broke it down in a really good, understandable way that could, could be appreciated by people on both sides. And I just thought that was really cool. I think everybody should go and listen to it. Obviously it's got some strong language in there if that offends you. Um, but it was really a good summation of what's been going on in the world and just kind of unexpected. That's awesome. I love it. Post Malone was on there for like four and a half hours. Oh yeah.

[01:02:10] I think they were medically induced. They thought it was 10 minutes. All right, Mark, you open your mouth. Once you go hack yourself. Yeah. You know, I've done these before in the past and this is just kind of, it's very topical to me right now. I'm going through two mergers right now simultaneously. And, uh, interestingly enough, one of them was, um, one of them, the, the seller of the merger

[01:02:40] agreed to hold the note. So we're not dealing with a bank. So we're taking one of my California practices, basically doubling the size by merging and with another practice. So it was a couple of miles down the road and it's worked out great. Um, the other merger is traditional financing and we're trying to get financing right now. And, uh, if anybody's trying to get financing for anything right now that started during the COVID crisis, you're going to be surprised. Uh, because even two banks that I have a really good relationship with, um, are requiring 30%

[01:03:09] down and, um, and they're, they're looking so, um, critically at the purchase that the practices, the practice that I'm trying to purchase, even though the, um, it's going to strengthen both practices to add them together. So the underwriting is super, super tight right now. And I didn't, I didn't recognize that that was going to be the case. The first one was Licky's Blake. Cause the guy was holding the note.

[01:03:35] This one is a much smaller merger and we're having, we're, I'm struggling. And I have, I have a 20 year relationship with both of these banks and they both basically said no. Um, so, uh, I guess the hack part is that, um, if you can find them, because there are a lot of practices that are struggling and doctors that are just done with it. And there, there, there are doctors that are shuttering, shuttering their doors without selling.

[01:04:03] So not that you want to take advantage of somebody else's misfortune, but if that is, I mean, it's better off for the patient base if they stay with a good doc and they don't just get kind of released into the wind. Um, I have two more that, that may happen, but we're going to have to wait and see what financing looks like. But, um, so I think mergers right now, if you can get financing or good, it's a good time for that right now. Interesting. A lot of opportunity. I think, do you think it's because of the prime rate right now that the banks are not

[01:04:32] really making that much money off of, of interest rates and they really just don't care to win? Yeah. I mean, remember the previous global financial crisis, a lot of people listening to us didn't experience that because well, all three of us are older and we all experienced it, but there was, everything was on sale. Apartment buildings were on sale. Houses were on sale. Practices were on sale, but the banks weren't lending because it just, it wasn't the right

[01:04:56] climate for, for underwriting and everybody was just kind of holding, trying to hold all their liquid, their liquidity. I think that's, what's going to happen now with the banks and interest rates, I think have something to do with that. Um, there's just no reason to, there's no reason to lend it. Right. Right. Uh, especially if it's a risky deal for the bank's perspective, that's the way I think that's what I think is happening. Yeah. They don't, they don't, they tend to make money. That's, that's the story. They're not going to risk. Cash is being right now. Hold on to it.

[01:05:26] That's right. It's not over. Sure is. Yeah. I think that's right. Brad, what's your go hack yourself item for us? So mine's pretty, uh, silly. Um, Jason, you know, you talked about it on your post where you'd lost all the weight of just, just do something. You know, you're never busy enough, you know, never so busy. You can't do a little bit. And so I, I'm entering my mid thirties. And so the extra beer or two I'm drinking is showing up around my waist.

[01:05:55] I'm noticing it. And so I've got an orthopedic surgeon buddy in town and he's been on me all the time to go start doing CrossFit with him. And he's done it for years. He's just this specimen of a man. I mean, just freak. And so I finally went last week and you know, there's all these girls that are just kicking my ass. So, uh, you're, you started CrossFit. I started CrossFit last week and it was miserable. So be about a week and a half ago. I did it on Friday.

[01:06:24] It was my first one and I could not move the entire weekend. You know, it's just, I, I'm, I'm, I'm not very strong guy. I'm not a small one. I'm six, one, 165 pounds. And you know, I'm in there and there's all these girls who are, you know, lifting twice as much weight as me and doing it, but just do something. And I feel better after doing it for 10 days than, you know, I've felt in a long time. And I get up and go at five 30 in the morning, do an hour's worth of whatever.

[01:06:52] And, you know, it's mixed up with some cardio and whatnot. And I'm still not jacked. I don't know when I started looking like Baron Grutter and weight piling, but it should be, you know, probably within like four days. I think I'll be. Yeah. I think, yeah, you're probably, you're right there. You're close. I feel better than I have felt in a long time just by getting up and doing something, getting my heart rate up into the one fifties, one sixties for 30, 45 minutes a day. And, you know, it's a great way to start the day. Just do something.

[01:07:22] That's awesome. Yeah. I know Mark's been on a plant-based diet. Tell me a little bit about what, what you're doing, Mark. The 17th of September is my one year plant-based anniversary. So I'm contemplating going back to fish and eggs, but I haven't made a final decision yet. I thought you were going to say you're going to get a Baconator or something. Novatarian. Yeah. I mean, I was, I was, uh, I was pescatarian with, with eggs for probably a decade before that and chicken I cut out.

[01:07:52] Oh geez. Maybe 12 years ago and beef, chicken and pork, uh, beef and pork. I cut out 30 years ago. So, but, um, it's been good. It's been good that you, I mean, there's no way you can do it. My wife is gluten-free. She has celiac, but, um, what's that? I noticed it. Oh, really? Okay. So if I couldn't go gluten-free and still do like, um, intermittent fasting and be vegan,

[01:08:20] you just, you have to give something up. Right. So carbs are, I'm all about carbs. There's, that's all you really can eat. So, um, I don't know. I don't know if it's been a good experience or not. I've, I've gotten through it just fine, but, uh, energy levels seem to feel good. My strength has gone down a little bit and I have a hard time keeping weight on actually. Yeah. So it's, you just don't get the same caloric density that you do in, in animal protein. Yeah.

[01:08:47] But, uh, yeah, it was just a challenge that I, I just challenged myself. I want to see if I could do it for a year. Interesting. Yeah. So, uh, you guys have super useful go hack yourselves. I have, uh, I have probably the most frivolous one yet. So, no, I, so I, I talked about this show. I can't watch television shows. I literally have to admit, like people talk about shows. Oh, have you seen this on Netflix? I can't, I can't do it.

[01:09:14] I can't, if it's, if it's, if it's an episode more than like 25 minutes, I'm out, man. I can't do it. I don't have the, I don't have the attention span. It's, it's, it's ridiculous. I blame this on social media. So, and if it doesn't have comic book characters, I'm just completely out. I mean, I'm, I'm like a 17 year old at best. So, okay. The, there's a show on the DC universe channel. I bought DC universe when it first came out. It's like comic books and, and, and DC cartoons and stuff like that. And Harley Quinn came out. Oh yeah.

[01:09:44] Harley Quinn is a very, very, very adult version of the DC comics. And the main character is Harley Quinn. And there's a lot of bad swears. There's a lot of really graphic violence, but it's cartoon. So it's like kind of funny. Um, they have, it's yeah, it's animated. It's totally animated. So it's not, but like they have a season two. I literally had, I loved season one, season two came out. And for some reason I didn't start watching it until just like last week. And season two is better than season one.

[01:10:13] It is so funny, but it's like, for me, I worry my kids are going to walk in and see it because it is, it is so profane and it is so violent, but yet the storyline, I don't even know how they can do it. The stories are fantastic. Like you just, you actually care about these characters and they're just the worst. They're literally super dealing from dead, the Deadpool. Oh my gosh. Totally. Totally. Exactly. Like these are like, these characters are the worst and horrible and they're, they're, they're murderous and terrible and it's hilarious.

[01:10:39] And so I just have to say, it's like the only show on television I can watch. It's so good. So good. I don't want it to end. It's so funny. You should try Punisher. If you like that, so that dark kind of comic book stuff, but it's not animated. But Punisher on Netflix is pretty awesome. I could try that as long as the episodes aren't too long. Cause I just can't stay with anything. I'm pathetic, man. People, anyone who spent any time with me realizes too, that I just got, I got no attention span. It's a mess. It is a mess people. Damn it.

[01:11:09] Well, there it is. Okay. You guys, you were fantastic tonight. You made it as guest hosts. What's that? Yeah. There you go. There you go. Jay lips. You got me. So, uh, Mark and Brad, we really appreciate you being on. This was fun as hell. This was good time. Uh, lots of good information here. And I think with that, man, I think we're going to wrap up. So thanks a ton for being on. You guys really appreciate it. Thanks you guys. Really appreciate it. Good to meet you, Brad. You too, Mark.

[01:11:38] All right, well, we'll talk to you guys again next week. Take care.