Very Dental Classics: Tell Me More, JLips

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[00:01:31] Very Dental Classics. Well, hello, Very Dental people. Welcome to another episode of the Very Dental Classics. This is your host, Dr. Alan Mead. Do you guys remember 2019? It's 2025 right now, so we're talking six years ago. That doesn't seem possible, but like the world before COVID happened. Unreal.

[00:01:53] So today, I'm featuring an episode that was originally released on April 26th, 2019. It was a Dental Hacks episode, and it actually featured me kind of interviewing Dr. Jason Lipscomb, my co-host for Dental Hacks for many years. And basically, we had been podcasting for a long time, but we were sort of digging into what each other were like, because we still didn't really... There were things we didn't know about each other, so it was very fun. I thought it was a good time.

[00:02:23] And it just sort of harkens back to a time before the pandemic. And I know that, you know, we don't have to think very much about the pandemic now, which is great, except it's amazing to think that that happened and it changed everything for a while. And maybe it changed everything for even forever, but it's just weird to think that there was a time we were podcasting like normal before all that stuff had happened.

[00:02:47] And this is, like I said, April 2019, featuring Dr. Jason Lipscomb. I hope you guys enjoy this episode. This is the Dental Hacks podcast, a podcast created by dentists for dentists. Now, sit back, relax. You're about to be hacked.

[00:03:15] Dental Hacks Nation, welcome to another episode of the Dental Hacks podcast. It's episode 237. My name is Alan Mead. And my name is not. It's J-Lips. How weird would that be if we both had the same name and it was Alan Mead? That would be weird. They would never be able to tell us apart. I know, because we're like twins, man. We're like twins. My voice is all ragged out from yelling at my kids all day. Yelling at your kids? Okay, I thought you were going to say your staff.

[00:03:43] So, I mean, it's a whole different kind of yelling when it's your kids. I'm more emotionally involved when it's my kids. I'll say that. I get stronger, stronger emotion out of it. Yeah, get in there. Get them. You got to save it up until you get home. Parenting. Not for sissies. No, it isn't. It is not for sissies. How many times have you thought to yourself, I'd like to be at the office today? Many times. Many, many times. It's great and it's terrible. I wish my office was closer so I could just slip out the back door. Seriously.

[00:04:14] Be there in minutes. It's really funny. I've thought a lot about it. In the last couple days, I've thought to myself, the two ways that I could get more time in my life would be, well, the first one would be like living five minutes from my office. And I've told you about this before. Or I've dreamed about that for a lot of years. And the story is, is that even if I wanted to live, if work in the town that I live in,

[00:04:40] it's still, I mean, to any place in town, because we're so far out in the country, it's still 15 minutes into town. And so it's like the huge effort you'd have to go through to actually like make the change, sell my office, buy another one or do a startup or something like that. You're only getting like 20 minutes back. You know, you're like, man, you know, if you're going to do it, do it. But like you did what you had, you had, you, you sold the practice that had the crazy long commute, right?

[00:05:07] Yeah. It was like an hour and 15 minutes, sometimes like a two hour drive home. Yeah. It's a nice little change. Yeah. That's a, that's a huge, but I just feel if I did that, I wouldn't have the bang for the buck. I don't think that's, I worry about that. I'm like, that's a gigantic change to make. If you're, if it's not going to help, if it's not going to make that big of a deal, it's just crazy. So I do think about that all the time. Our alarm went screwy yesterday. I was, I had pretty much just gotten home and the alarm company called.

[00:05:36] So there was a motion sensor in the, in the waiting room. So I had to turn around and go back to the office and rush hour traffic. So even that 20 minutes is still like, yeah, it's just right at the end of the driveway. Oh man. Yeah. That's the, my alarm problems haven't been my thing, but what happens with me is it'll be Thursday and I'm not going back to the office till the next Monday. And I, and I'll get halfway home and realize I left my wallet at the office.

[00:06:02] I'd love to tell you that's only happened like twice, but I can't tell you that it's happened to me a lot of times. Take a picture of your credit cards. Something. Call in orders. I it's, it is, it's crazy, right? Like I, that is, it's this weird, there was a time when it was happening. Like, I don't know, I, I have a tile, like one of those little tiles on my, on my wallet and supposedly you can set it. So like if it'll beep, if you walk too far away from it or whatever with your key, I don't know.

[00:06:29] But the bottom line is that I found those tiles and Bluetooth type tracking things to be pretty unreliable. So I don't know. It's, it just happens. It just happens to me. I keep, I keep my wallet, my keys, my phone on me at like all times. So even if I'm like, like I'll be going out of town and I'll, I'll have my keys in my pocket and I'm like, why am I carrying these keys around there? They're no use to me right now. It's like a reflex though. I get it.

[00:06:55] It's like a reflex, you know, you just, but it's a, it's probably a good reflex on the regular times because then you're not going to forget it. Do you ever have the thing where, where like you're at your office and you've come to realize that there's a system at your office that is broken. And you've been meaning to fix it for a long time and you just haven't, haven't put in the effort.

[00:07:15] And you think to yourself, you realize that it'd probably be easier to like start a new practice than, than fix all the dumb little things that are, that are bad habits in your practice. I don't know. Maybe, maybe this is just me, but I think to myself, if I was going to start a new practice, I would make sure that all these dumb habits that I keep falling back into, I, I, I build it. So they don't happen like that. Now you are a guy who has started up a lot of practices and I want to know, does it work? Does it work?

[00:07:44] In other words, if, if you've got like bad habits or bad systems that have been tough to fix in one practice, when you do a startup, have you been able to improve upon them? Yeah. I mean, some of the stuff you can kind of fix because like in this last office, you never really plan enough for storage. And a lot of times, so you kind of have to go through it a couple of times and realize that, Hey, I need more of this, or I need more storage, or I need more space to put these supplies in there.

[00:08:13] So it definitely I've kind of correct that a little bit. I think even if you develop systems, there's still going to be something personality driven because there's going to be somebody in the practices that kind of rises to the top, kind of takes control a little bit. Yeah. Um, and they're going to have their own little nuance on to making it work and kind of working it, working it their way. So I think each office kind of has its own personality. Yeah.

[00:08:41] Um, if it's different people in there working, cause you try to, you have systems and you also try to make people happy. And some people like to organize one way. And so whatever gets the job done, Johnny, I've spent so much time in my life fantasizing about that kind of thing. How if I were doing it again, I would do this, but, but yet I'm never quite devoted enough to actually make the change. Now it's, it's kind of crazy.

[00:09:06] And this has been like change for me happens like glacially slow. A lot of times it's, it'll happen, but it's one of those things where it happens glacially slowly that way. And, and, you know, there's enough things right with my practice. I probably shouldn't complain about them, but there's some stuff that you're like, I mean, there's plenty of stuff. Okay. The guy who I bought the practice from, I bought the practice in 1998. So, I mean, we're talking 21 years ago and I'm sure, can you believe that?

[00:09:36] It's crazy. Uh, the guy's actually been dead for like, I don't know, 10 years. Like he hasn't practiced dentistry in this practice for 20, 21 years or whatever. And, and in my mind, I'm like, yeah, and we're still stuck with some of the systems he had in place. And I'm like, you know what? You can't really blame him for it anymore. It's 21 years later and he's been long dead. So frankly, it's kind of on me, but I'll like, oh, these patients are still used to doing this or still use it. So I just, I don't know, man. I'm, I'm not a good, I'm not a good catalyst for change on my own.

[00:10:06] I'm, I'm not, I, I think it's just because change is so hard. Sometimes it's almost like you gotta, it's got, the fire has to be lit before you're going to push hard enough. So I'll just sit here and fantasize about starting something new instead of fixing what I've got. I mean, sometimes you look at stuff on Facebook and like, oh man, that guy, that guy's doing this. He's going on a fishing trip. He's too. And then you realize, you're like, I could do that if I wanted to. It's not like somebody's like twisting my arm saying, no, you can't go on that fishing trip.

[00:10:36] It's like, or you can't get that, that TV or do whatever. It's like, it's, it's all in your own brain that locks you up sometimes. That really strikes a chord with me. You're exactly right. Cause I'm like, there's a ton of times when I'm like, you know, okay. So we, we did a road trip for spring break. And in my mind, I'm like, well, the real American spring break is flying to Florida. I'm like, you know what? There's nothing stopping you from flying to Florida, dude. Nothing. And frankly, you'll hate the crowds in Florida as much as you did in Chicago.

[00:11:05] The problem with spring break isn't, isn't the place that we pick. The problem is it's spring break time. So everything is busy all the time, you know? So in some ways you're, you're exactly right. It's more in my brain than the, than the reality of it. And in that, I don't know, man, I need someone else's brain. I don't think, I think, I think I could do well without my brain for a little while. Just, just, just for a test drive, you know? I mean, it goes with practice. It goes with dental practices too.

[00:11:30] Obviously there's a million different coaches out there and a million different consultants and, and stuff. But ultimately like somebody has got to strike a chord with you and actually make you, make you do that. Yeah. And it's too bad there's not a dating app to kind of figure out like what consultant would be able to do that. It's a great idea. Except for me, I know for a fact that like, I don't, I haven't used consultants in the past and it is not because I don't, I think they don't work. I think they do work.

[00:12:00] However, I know, I know how bad I am at, at implementing those changes. Yeah, I am. I'm so broken. It totally is true. It's like any, any, oh man, I'd be the, I don't know if it would be a great thing for a coach because they, they need to coach me forever. Or like the worst thing because they could, they could not point at me as a success story because I'm just like, I'm really, I can't change. So I don't know. And I do think, I mean, I think consultants have, I think they can be really good, but you got to just be ready.

[00:12:30] And frankly, you also have to be ready to make your team, get your, get your team motivated to change too. And that's hard. I mean, getting the team going all in the same direction sometimes is hard. I love my team, but I think it'd be hard to do that. I think you need like the pizza bomber, like neck thing around you that would either, either shock you or give you messages all day long. Something, man, something. I don't know.

[00:12:55] It's, I'm, I will say this, Jason, it is soothing to hear that I'm not the only person that sort of thinks these things. And, and that, that commute that I talk about having a shorter commute, like there are times I'm like, oh, commute's great. I can, I can unwind. I can kind of have a little alone time. I can listen to some podcasts or audio books or whatever. But a lot of the time I'm up in my head, like, like living this fantasy life that's not going to happen unless I'm, unless I'm willing to get off my ass a little bit, you know? So it's, I don't know, I'm not sure how healthy it is. I guess it depends on how I'm doing in my head.

[00:13:24] Just sort of, sort of a funny thing. I would love to hear if any other like listeners have ever had this conversation with themselves. I suspect there are some out there, probably, probably mid-career dentists like me going, looking back and going, man, if I had just done this or whatever. I don't know. It's a, I don't exactly have regrets because I really like what I'm doing and everything, but it's just, I find that I always have in my mind, I'm like, well, someday I'm going to have this. I'm like, dude, you've been practicing for 21 years, 22 years. When is someday, you know?

[00:13:54] Like, can't, I mean, 22 years is solidly mid-career, right? Like probably past, past the middle. I'm thinking, God, I hope so. I would, I would hope that'd be past mid-career. I know, right? So what you're saying is I'm an old guy. I can live with that. I can live with it. And I'm kind of on the counterpoint right now. I sold that practice, so I was pretty busy and had my nine-to-five routine.

[00:14:21] And then you sell your practice and you kind of switch around at age 44 and you kind of feel like part of you is glad you did it. And part of you is like, what the hell have I done to myself? Yeah. And your routine is, your Apple card is all of a sudden turned upside down. And that's, it's a little strange to get used to it too. So, I mean, it's, that's on the other side waiting too. If anything changes, it's, it's different.

[00:14:47] I, it's, that's a really good point that I hadn't thought about because like, okay, sometimes you're like, man, this routine is really a drag. And then all of a sudden when you actually have to come and change it, you're like, man, this routine was bedrock. Like this was, this was my comfortable place. Cause this was my routine. I always, my routine was shaken up pretty good when I went into treatment, you know? And that was obviously a long time ago, but the story is, is like, it told me over time that it's like, you can survive a change in routine.

[00:15:15] You can survive like, you know, your life having crazy stuff go on. And, and honestly you can turn it around and make it be, that's like real. And I mean, I know that you're surviving it, but you're also, you're in a position where you can look back and go, man, I, there, there's probably days you sort of miss that routine. Maybe. Is that, is that right? Or am I wrong on that? If that routine includes getting a paycheck. Yes, I do. That's a routine. That's a routine I can get behind. I'm just saying that's, that's a routine I can live with. So I have a question for you, Jason.

[00:15:43] Um, when you're placing a bonded restoration, be it like an indirect or a direct composite, how do you like to etch? Do it, do it poorly. Poorly. On the tongue. Patients love that. I just want them to know what it tastes like. That's right. That's right. You don't want to look back all those years later and say, what did that etch dot taste like? Exactly. And also it helps keep them in line too. You know, all they have to do is taste that once and they will listen.

[00:16:12] I'm telling you. Are you, are, so are you, are you a, a self etcher where you, where you let the bonding agent. That's none of your business. Yeah. I know it's, it's getting kind of personal, isn't it? Are you, are you like a, are you like a selective etcher where you'll, you'll do the enamel on the outside and let it sit and then do a little bit on the denton and then rinse it? Or do you just go like all in with the blue stuff and fill the whole prep up? What do you do? Turn the lights down low. That is hot. Get the bond out. Yeah.

[00:16:39] Actually, I kind of changed it up a little bit from, from what I had been doing. Obviously from going their course and kind of seeing some of the stuff that they were, that they were doing. They kind of said to, to bond the dent and, and really rub it in for, for quite a while, like, like 30 seconds. Wow, that guy was hot.

[00:17:03] And I, I'd, I'd been kind of a real quick, quick guy, kind of put it on there, air dry it and, and, and blow it off. And this may, this may, this may come as a surprise to some people, but I actually had some sensitivity in my practice. I'm not, I don't know anyone who did. Never had sensitivity. God forbid. Um, no, but I, you know, did have some sensitivity issues in there and just trying to, trying to think about my technique.

[00:17:30] And, um, after I've been doing it their way, uh, here recently, I really, knock on wood, really haven't seen a lot of sensitivity. So, you know, the time that you're supposed to scrub it in for like, like you said, 20 or 30 seconds, which is probably kind of universal across bonding agents. That's the longest 30 seconds of your life, man. That's it. That 30 seconds feels like 20 minutes. I don't know what the story is on that. And actually you ever noticed that you're, you're curing light.

[00:17:56] If it's set at 10 seconds to, to, to like chime at 10 seconds, it feels like 45 minutes when you're waiting for that stupid thing to ring. And it's, well, it's yeah. Anything in the mouth like that, it feels like it takes 40 times longer than it is. Yeah, I know. It's crazy. It's crazy. But the patient doesn't know that they're just, you're just in there, just wicking around in there. So yeah, they don't, they don't know anything different.

[00:18:21] Did you know, did you know that no matter how you etch any of those three ways that we talked about, that Bisco's All-Bond Universal will work with any of them? Any of them? That's why it's universal, baby. It is. That's, that's why they call it universal. The other thing that's really cool about it is it'll work with light cured composite. It will work with like dual cured cements and dual cured composites. It will also work with self-curing. So not, you know, purely chemical cure. It'll work with all those and you don't need to use any kind of an activator with it or anything like that.

[00:18:51] It's one bottle, truly one bottle, which is pretty cool and pretty new. If you remember correctly, a lot of these, a lot of these materials have required a couple extra steps to make sure they're going to work and you're going to get it cured all the way to the bottom of your, your, your preparation and all that stuff. And this All-Bond Universal has been designed from the ground up to you to work with whatever you're doing. So it's a pretty, it's a pretty smart system. One thing, one thing only.

[00:19:16] So if you guys are interested in hearing about Bisco's All-Bond Universal and, uh, actually they have an ebook that they're trying to get you to read because. Ebook. Ebook. I think that if you read it, you're going to decide you want to try this stuff. So you got to go to dentalhacks.com slash A B U. And that stands for All-Bond Universal. And, uh, you can sign up for the free ebook. And when you sign up for that, I'm going to tell you this right now, there's a discount. So you can get a discount code. So if you're like, Oh, I think I want to try this stuff. You can get it for a discount.

[00:19:44] If you go to dentalhacks.com slash A B U and sign up for their ebook. And so do it. But our friends at Bisco would love to help you with sensitivity, love to help you with all your materials. And this is good stuff. So we thank them for supporting the show. The ebook. So Jason, I think what we're going to do today. Tell. Well, earlier we said, okay, I'm Jason will interview me and I'll interview you. And so we started putting some questions together. We got some questions and all of a sudden I realized we have a lot of questions.

[00:20:14] Like, I think what we're going to do is I'm going to interview you tonight because I have a ton of questions for you. And then maybe next time around you can interview me. Where do babies come from now? A little sketch pad here. Just draw a little schematic. I'm not a very good artist, Jason. Okay. I was thinking earlier today that we've been podcasting for almost five years, if you can believe that. That's freaking nuts, by the way. Feels like it. No. I see what you did there.

[00:20:43] And it was hurtful and painful. Well, just so you know, what's funny about this is that I've known you for longer than five years. But we've been doing this thing kind of weekly for five years. And there's a bunch of stuff that I don't know about you. And so I'm going to ask all of the things I've ever wanted to know about you. I'll never tell. I mean, you can always plead the fifth. You don't have to answer questions that are uncomfortable.

[00:21:12] I have no shame. You know that by now? Shameless. You were shameless. So I've heard some stuff about your family, but I'm just curious. Like, what was your family like when you're growing up? How many siblings do you have? And are you close with them now? I remember the story you told me about your brother using you as a karate punching bag. That's the one. Yes. It was that. Well, I'm six foot four, 250 pounds now, and he's five foot six. Nice.

[00:21:42] Payback as hell, man. No, you can still beat me up. That karate came in handy, didn't it? First of all, I did not have any dentistry in my family. Mm-hmm. So I'm probably, maybe only a couple of us in our family graduated from college. So there is that. It was a lower middle class family.

[00:22:11] Nothing fancy. When you went to dental school, did you feel kind of weird that you didn't have dentistry in your family? Because it was so common in my dental school class. And from what I understand in a lot of places where there's lots of dads, uncles, moms, aunts, grandpas, or whatever that were in the business and they kind of influence you. And you didn't have that, it sounds like. Yeah. Well, in my class was the son of the person at Richmond at the time who had probably the

[00:22:37] biggest group practice around and had been, was, I guess, one of the heir of parents to a big, big corporation. So it was, it was very interesting to see how, how they interacted in the school, especially in the building that was named after their father. That's awesome. I'm sorry. That's hilarious. Yeah. So, so you know how that goes.

[00:23:04] So being, being a, a, a, a poor kid from the wrong side of the tracks kind of coming into that and, and to be quite honest, I didn't really, I mean, we went to the dentist. Just not on the regular when I was a kid. It was kind of, if we had it, if we had insurance, then we would go. And if not, then, you know, it might be a couple of years and then we'll pick back up. But so there wasn't a lot of, God bless my parents, but it wasn't a lot of dental IQ in our family.

[00:23:31] So it was just interesting for me from a, from that, from a, in a socioeconomic standpoint, just kind of, kind of learning from, from some of the other ways that these people had come up. So it was, it was, it was pretty interesting, but there were other people in our class that were, um, that were, uh, second generation in the country, um, coming in who, who, so, I mean, uh, I mean, they, they had some, had good stories about how, how they got there

[00:24:01] and what they went through, um, to get there. So, I mean, you can't, you can't cry too much. Um, those folks, those folks are a lot of times really driven too. I had at the university of Minnesota, we had a lot of folks that literally like survived the fall of Saigon kind of thing. Cause just cause of my age and that sort of thing. So we had a bunch of people that were born in Vietnam or my, in my dental school class. And those people were first off, I mean, they had lived in Minnesota for a long time. So it's not, it's not like they were brand new to the whole scene or anything like that, but they were pretty driven.

[00:24:29] It was, I had a lot of good friends actually that, that were, were like you said, kind of second generation or actually first generation in the United States, but second generation sort of thing. It's, it's, it's, it's an interesting, an interesting thing. Yeah. So I mean, I was, I was born in 1975. So obviously there was, uh, that was at the tail end of it at all, but still, um, you know, a lot of those countries were, um, getting people out of there. So, yeah. So, I mean, it's, it was interesting.

[00:24:55] And, um, so yeah, you, you still kind of did feel like you were, you're almost behind the eight ball a little, a little bit. Um, and, uh, you know, as you grow up, you kind of learn some different nuances of growing up and, and right now I see my friends sending their kids off to private school and, um, you just see the networking that, that exists in, in that, that society. And that it was a little bit different than what I was used to.

[00:25:22] So, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting. And it's interesting to become an adult and kind of look back at that stuff too. And kind of think of how, how you came up and how it affected you and where it'll take you. Yeah. It's weird too. Cause you know, honestly, you know, my story, my dad was a dentist. I grew up in a dental office for crying out loud. And, and, um, so it was sort of part of, part of me forever.

[00:25:48] But when I look back in dental school, like what I had was I had experience being around a dental office, you know, I mowed the lawn there, all this amalgam poisoning. Yeah. It's probably from that. But, but the reality is, you know, dental school, I didn't have any advantages. It's not like my dad was lecturing me about the best kind of amalgam prep or anything like that. I just, I knew he was a dentist. I knew he liked it. That's pretty much. And I, and I knew what a dental office smelled like. And, but I, it's not like I had any, any actual advantages. There might've been kids that like had actually worked in the dental office.

[00:26:16] So I actually have a friend who was the class behind me who I think she worked for her dad as an assistant for like three, three summers or something like that. So she clearly came in knowing a bunch of stuff that I didn't know. Yeah. And there were some, some kids in our class that were obviously pressured into going to dental school and did not want to be there. Um, and actually a couple of them finally, finally quit like third year into, into dental school.

[00:26:42] Cause just, you know, they realized like that was not for them and they just felt so pressured that their parents were dentists to be there. Um, and you kind of think how awful that must've been too. And now, you know, that's like two, two or three years in and quitting, that's like a $300,000 mistake at this point. Oh yeah. And interestingly, they, uh, the people that gave you the loans don't go, oh, Hey, don't worry about it. It didn't work out. That doesn't happen, man. Oh my gosh. That's tragic.

[00:27:08] I mean, I mean having, having a parent as a dentist or, or, or family as a dentist wasn't necessarily a golden ticket to the happiness and success. Yeah. I think, I think there, I think a lot of us thought that it was going to be, I think a lot of us like, man, yeah, this is, and I will say this, I did not look for a job at all when I was in dental school. It was never even a concern in my mind. Cause I always knew I was going to go back to dad's office and work with him.

[00:27:32] Um, so like of all the networking and all, all the recruiting that was done, I probably wasn't a very attractive recruit cause I was, I was just, I was absolutely mental in dental school. I really was. I was, I was insane. I, I had no coping skills. I've talked about that before, but, but so I don't remember ever attempting to be recruited, but I probably gave off the signals that I wasn't, might not be worth bothering since I was going home anyhow. So I didn't, I never knew what it was like to get recruited.

[00:28:00] I never knew what it was like to be a senior when people are looking to recruit. I never, never had any, I wouldn't pay any attention at all. I was just trying to get through. I mean, I was just trying to survive, you know? So anyhow, I, that's a, a whole other story, but it's just an interesting, interesting thing. I don't, I think we thought it was going to be, you know, having the dental background was going to make a difference. I don't think it really did. I don't think it really did. Yeah. Well, I mean, for some, for some people it probably did and for others it, it didn't. It depends on the, the amount of involvement.

[00:28:30] Yeah. And you still, you still had, you still had to put in the, you still had to put in the work, you know, you still had to prove you can do it. I don't, I don't know that anyone got any special privileges. You know, that's interesting. I, one of my classmates, her dad was an instructor. He's in the, in the Prost clinic and it wasn't there all the time, but you know, some of the time I don't think she got, I don't know. I don't remember anything being, you know, the smart move on her part was that she lived in St. Paul and she went to the university of Minnesota and it was, you know, a 10 minute drive for any of her family members to show up as a patient.

[00:29:00] And I, I came to the university of Minnesota. I know a soul in the whole state. So part of it is people who could bring their own patients. That was, that was a big deal. And if you had a dad or a mom or an uncle that was like a dentist that was in the same town, man, they could funnel you some good stuff if they needed to. Oh yeah. That was, that might be the nepotism where you could see some advantages. And I never even gave a thought to the clinical stuff when I was applying to dental school. I'll never cross my mind. I wouldn't know. God, no. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah.

[00:29:26] When we, when we got into dental school and we had to start carving teeth pretty much right away, I was like, what? I've, you know, I was in such, I was in such deep trouble there, man. I was in such deep trouble. That was, that was so far, like, I guess I didn't have any hand skills or whatever. And it just, yeah, that was scary. Remember all the oral anatomy stuff that it was just like, it was like, it was like they demanded you speak, you know, a brand new language in full sentences the first day.

[00:29:56] You just said, I had no idea what I was doing. Well, I worked, I worked pretty much full time all through undergrad. So, I mean, I, and I, I lived, lived locally and then, and commuted into school. So, I mean, when, when other people were off in a fraternity or doing stuff like that and that for years, I, I was not doing that. And then when I got to dental school and all of a sudden you have this close set of people

[00:30:24] and, you know, they're having parties and stuff like that. And that was my, that was my time to party. Yeah. Because you, because undergrad, undergrad wasn't really, you were, you were too busy working to do that stuff. Yeah. Undergrad was like a job. So, I mean, this was like, hey, this is, so that, that really nailed me to the wall pretty good too. Well, interesting. Okay. So that's one of the questions I was going to ask you. What was, what was undergrad like for you? You went, you went to, where'd you go to undergrad? VCU. Which is also where you went to dental school, right?

[00:30:54] Yep. Okay. So, so that's what you do. Didn't give it far. So, and where did you live in undergrad? In undergrad, I lived in a couple of different apartments. I actually lived with my parents for a year. Mm-hmm. But yeah, just with other roommates and stuff. You, you, you lived in the Cy Omega house, didn't you? I lived in, in dental school. I lived in the Cy O house for three years. And then I moved to an apartment that I thought was the greatest thing ever.

[00:31:23] It was a dump, but it was the greatest thing ever. And they called the whole complex, the Cy Omega retirement home. There's a bunch of us that lived in the Cy O house and, and just awful. Like, like the Cy Omega house was, was great for a lot of reasons, but it was not a nice place. It was, it was pretty bad. It was pretty beat up and the room for tiny, but the rent, you couldn't beat the rent, man. When I was treasurer for a couple of years, I got to live in basically downtown Minneapolis for 150 bucks a month.

[00:31:51] And I didn't think about it as, as like, Hey, I'm really saving myself money at the time. It's just what I did. And I, I, when I went to tour, like, like my dad and I, my senior year is great. We did this, we did the dental school, Midwest dental school tour. Uh, I, I looked at, we flew from, uh, where'd we do? We flew from, I flew from Ohio to, to Nebraska and then we drove to Iowa or vice versa. We saw university of Iowa and university of Nebraska on this trip.

[00:32:19] And it was, you know, it was cold and snowy and, and, um, both of them were, I mean, both of them were great. They were really, I remember back in the day when you were a potential dental student, they, they, they rolled out the red carpet for you. So both those schools looked awesome. I, and, and then I, I went to the university of Michigan and I've always had a chip on my shoulder about the university of Michigan. Um, so Michigan wasn't really my, on my list. And what's weird is like, it would have, honestly, it wasn't gonna be that much less expensive to go to Michigan, even though as a Michigan resident.

[00:32:47] Um, so we did this tour and I ended up at Minnesota, one of these trips, uh, and, and they were really, they were super nice. I mean, the recruiters, I still, to this day, I'm Facebook friends with the people that recruited me and stuff. They're just, they, they do their administration. I gotta say there, there's some pretty kind and gentle people. I can't say the same for the rest of the school necessarily, but, but at least for that. And so like they were talking about where, what people did to, uh, work for living.

[00:33:14] So my dad and I, after we finished the tour, my dad's like, well, I was a Psy Omega at the university of Detroit in the sixties. You know, we should go check out the Psy Omega house. So I, I knock on the door and it just so happens the guy by the name of, uh, Rob Kozlowski. So there'd be Dr. Rob Kozlowski. Now I haven't heard from him since he graduated from dental school, but, um, answered the door and was like, yeah, come on in, check it out. And this was, I hadn't even like finished my application. He was like super friendly, showed me the house in, in my mind. I'm like, okay, maybe the house isn't so nice.

[00:33:43] I didn't think that much of it at the time, but I'm like, if, if like a second year is this friendly to just a person knocking on the door, I'm like, how bad could it be? And I'm not going to lie to you. The PsyO folks were great. We had, I had a good time there. It wasn't a nice place, but it was, you know, it was honestly, it was, it, they're great people. They're some of the best people. I mean, they, they helped me make it through. I was a mess. And if I didn't have them, I'd have been in trouble. So the PsyO house was, there was some good stuff about it. There was some bad stuff about it just because it was sort of a dump, but it was good stuff too.

[00:34:11] So that's where I ended up living for three years of my dental school career. And I lived in the dorms for three years in undergrad. And then I was in a horrible apartment my senior year. So there's, there's a trend about the apartments I choose. Apparently they're all horrible. Go back and do it all over. That's right. We do it in style. Now you go to the university of Minnesota and all of the, the divy restaurants and like apartment buildings are all gone and they're all high rise, beautiful condos. I'm like, I don't think you're staying in downtown Minneapolis for 150 bucks anymore.

[00:34:41] Pretty sure of that. But so you were, you in dental school, you were, you were in apartments and then you lived with your folks, huh? Yeah. I kind of, I can't remember what year I lived with my, my parents, but I just pretty much ran out of money. I just didn't have, I mean, I've, I was just eating like corn chips as a meal. Yeah. A couple of times a week. So I was like, you know, I just, just never, never had any money. So I mean, you had to, had a stipend a little bit, but, um, just wasn't able to work and yeah, you know, keep up with everything.

[00:35:10] God, if I had had to work, I never would have been a made it through. I worked my senior year and that was after we, the class load course, by the end of the, by, by your senior year, the class load wasn't that, wasn't that big. So I worked in a coffee shop for, for probably six months. That was a fun job. It's a good job. It did paid. It didn't pay very well, you know, in retrospect, uh, it was, you know, when I spent everything I made there, it's not like I was paying my tuition with it or anything like that, but I had a little extra time and there were some really cool people there that I worked with. So that was cool.

[00:35:38] But yeah, there was no way that you were doing that on a regular basis in dental school. There's no chance you were going to be able to work, you know, throughout school. I was, I mean, I'd love to tell you it's cause I was studying all the time, but I mean, it was a grind. We remember you talked to undergrads who, who were complaining cause they had 15 credit hours per week or whatever. And like dental school was a minimum of 28 or something like that was ridiculous. We would sit and watch the med students go home cause they would, they would leave around like 12 or two in the afternoon.

[00:36:08] And we'd kind of see them coming down from the medical school and looking out the window and we're up there waxing all our crap. Yeah. Yeah. It was, that's what it was for the first year. We had the same curriculum as the medical students, except all the dental stuff that we had, you know, we had the cell biology, we had the, you know, biochemistry and gross anatomy and histology. We had all that stuff. We also had to learn about teeth. And I think my, it's so funny, my, my first quarter freshman year dental school, they had

[00:36:35] something like dental practice delivery or something like that. And it was, it was basically like solo practice, group practice, you know, um, public health and like, you just knew nothing. You didn't know anything about anything. And it was almost like, well, we got to get this in somewhere. Let's put it in first quarter freshman year. I'm like the context just wasn't there at all. I remember that vividly. There were quite a few classes like that. You could just sort of in looking back, you're like, well, they obviously had to get this in. It must've been a requirement.

[00:37:03] So they just found, they found a spot for it wherever they could. Yeah. It's yeah. That was, it's not the time to do the business education. Like the medical students, the medical students had, they had histology, they had gross anatomy and they had cell biology. And that's all they had for like the first two quarters. And it was the, the goal was to kind of get the basic science requirements out of the way. And which is a, I think it's a great idea. They could really focus on the basics.

[00:37:33] That's fantastic. They did that to the dental students and just added their dental stuff on top of it. It was, I remember, I think they did that to see what kind of stuff we were made of. That was, it was tough. Yeah. They'll weed you out real quick. Yeah. We did. You know, did you lose people in your class? Oh yeah. Yeah. We lost some, somebody like the first like couple of days, like after you wheeled that cadaver up in gross anatomy and one guy turned green, didn't come back. Oh wow.

[00:38:02] We lost, we lost people. Let's see. We lost people. We might've lost one or two after the first gross anatomy test. They may have just decided. And you know, when you think about it, if dental school is not for you, um, you stay there for like, you know, half a quarter and bail out. You got good stories to tell. You're probably not on the hook for too, especially back in the, in the mid nineties, you're not on the hook for too much money at that point. You know, you've probably made a good choice for yourself.

[00:38:31] It wasn't a good fit or it was gonna be too hard for you or whatever. I don't know how you do that now, but like, I, it seems like you'd have tons of regret if you got that far and then you bailed out, you know, it's, that's, but people did. We lost, I think we started with 80 and we graduated like 72 or something like that. So we lost eight and I think we didn't, we lost most of them within the first, probably first half of the first year. I think there was one guy who was, who was, who was definitely going to be, he was going

[00:38:57] to be the valedictorian, super smart, crushed it at everything, decided after a quarter he wanted to go to medical school. So that's dentistry is not for me. I'm like, man, that guy had it together. I was too busy trying to survive to be able to decide whether it was something I thought I could do for a living. Holy cow. I just, I decided that about six years too late. Exactly. It doesn't help having got the degree, right? Yeah, got it. Why did I do this? The grocery store was a great place for me. Yeah, got it. It's so true.

[00:39:26] But I mean, like, I laugh to, to remembering that, you know, I used to think at the time like, oh, that's just the worst thing in the world. It's like their life is over. And now, you know, in retrospect, you're like, man, they probably were relieved because it just wasn't working out and they made a good choice for themselves. Right. I don't know. That's, it seems like what was your, what was your, uh, what was your favorite thing in dental school? Like what, what were there any things that you did particularly well in or that you particularly liked? Like drink a lot of beer. Yeah.

[00:39:55] That's what it goes without saying. Right. I did like the, I did like the parties. Yes. I liked the socializing. That was, yeah, that was, that was probably my strong suit. Everything else was a distant, distant second. Um, when I applied myself, I did pretty well, but, um, that did okay. And like, uh, and like lab stuff, like making, uh, doing stuff in the lab, waxing up stuff, use my hands, man.

[00:40:22] I could, I could do that, but, um, just, uh, getting everything else to line up was not fun. Man. You know what? We should have like, we should have averaged our skills then because the academic stuff and I, I have horrible study habits and I still got away with murder. I did really well with the academic stuff. Um, and I struggled from the very beginning for the hand stuff, the, the, you know, the type it on stuff, you know, fixed process and operative.

[00:40:49] And I really struggled with the preclinical, uh, lab stuff to the point where, I mean, my second year, I was just, I, I look back and I was just an absolute mess. I was in constant panic mode. You know, it really scares me too, that I look so sad, but okay. So a couple of weeks ago I was in charge of getting Sean to, to band. I actually, I didn't, I know, I know I talked about this on the show, but I was Mr. Mom and I had to get Sean to band before school. He's 11. He's in fifth grade.

[00:41:16] You know, it's the first year of band and his teacher sometimes kind of tough on the kids because you know, as fifth graders are, they show up late, they're flaky. They forget their books. They don't practice all this stuff. Sean takes it really seriously. And, and, uh, he gives the kids a really hard time if they forget their book. And I forgot the book. I didn't know it was sitting on the music stand. I didn't, I, I took it upon myself to make sure that we had the stuff and I totally forgot it. And when he realized that I'd forgotten it, I saw in his little face, he was almost

[00:41:44] crying and he was so upset. He was because, because he didn't want to, he didn't want to let down the band teacher who he really thinks a lot of Mr. Monroe. You know, and he just was in a panic. He's like, Oh, I'm going to be in so much trouble. Cause he yells at the other kids who don't bring their books. And I'm like, Oh my God, that was my second year of dental school in that, in that panicked little face of his. I'm like, Oh, I've passed that onto him. Cause that was me, dude. That was totally me. Like even when I practiced, even when I tried, I just, I just couldn't.

[00:42:11] And it was one of these things where it's like, I probably never had a chance because I had just so much anxiety and panic. And every time we had to do anything like that, you know, no matter what I did, I just, I just couldn't seem to, to, to steady myself. And, and I just didn't have any sense of perspective that, that, you know what, nothing here is life and death. Everything's okay. No one ever told me that, you know? And so I feel bad because I'm like looking at that. That's part of me. I have that. Apparently I have that in me. I don't really have it in me now anymore. I'm, I'm definitely better.

[00:42:39] I don't feel like that very often, but I remember when I did and I, I feel bad cause I think I gave that to my kid. What a horrible gift. Yes. And I mean, and that, in that timeframe, they didn't really have a counselor there to be able to kind of help talk you off the, talk you off the edge. And, and, and my school was a lot of military guys. So they're like, Oh, so what? You can't, you can't show weakness. Yeah. Yeah. Keep on going through.

[00:43:07] So I'm, I'm sure it's a little bit different now, but it is, man. I was like some years ago, I, I spoke at university Detroit and I, I kept looking for the students that were panicked like me so I could pat them on the back and tell them it was okay. And they're like, no, I like school. Instructors are great. What have you done with dental school? This can't be right. It was, I mean, and I, but I have to say part a lot, it may not have been that bad. It may have been literally just, I was just not maybe the right person for that at the time. I just didn't have, I just didn't have it together.

[00:43:37] I didn't have it to cope. So it is what it is, you know, in retrospect, things have turned around for me, but I really, I sometimes think I should be the instructor somewhere. I should teach somewhere because I think for that kid, if there is that kid, I could be the one to help him. Cause I remember that. I mean, like you'd think that it would, I would have shaken it off by now, but I'm like, I saw that in Sean. I'm like, yep. I was right back there. I know what that feels like. And it feels pretty horrible. So it's, it's a poor kid.

[00:44:03] So that said, I, and I really struggled with the lab stuff, the, the lecture stuff, the, the, you know, multiple choice tests. I tested well all the time. And you know, there's something really weird. I was like gifted in biomaterials. Like what's that all about? Why? I don't remember studying particularly hard, but like I would just go in and I just crush it in biomaterials specifically. I, it's very weird.

[00:44:30] Like I, when we had our award ceremony, I probably told this story before we had our award ceremony at the end of the year. Remember they had a, you know, different awards and a fixed process award and they'd have a removable reward and an endo reward. And it was, it was all the people who did really well in those courses. And so they gave me a letter saying, Hey, you're receiving a reward. But I also knew that like the Psy Omega, Psy Omega had an award. It was the fraternal achievement award. I don't know exactly what that means.

[00:44:59] Like you did the best keg stands. I don't exactly know, but I cooked breakfast the best. Exactly. Exactly. You clean puke off the floor the best. And I knew I had won that. Like basically the guy who was the president won one and I, I was the treasure. And so I, I knew I had won that. So I figured that was the, the award. So the very first award given at this, at our awards banquet, um, which I actually spoke, I, they, the, the class actually asked me to do the, the, like the address, the student address.

[00:45:28] And of course I just, I just did. You liked me. Well, no, it was really, it was really funny. Like I didn't know what to do. So all I did was just rip on instructors. I did sort of a, I did sort of an instructor roast, not knowing that if that was a good idea or bad idea, it was really dumb too, cause I hadn't finished it. It wasn't. I still had requirements, but apparently there were many classes after me that did the same thing. So in a way I may have started, it was, it was, I mean, it was all I could do. I wanted to be funny about stuff and, and actually the instructors loved it. I didn't know they did at the time when I realized, I'm like, what have I done? But they actually liked it.

[00:45:57] Anyhow, um, I got the, I got the biomaterials award. I had no idea. It was like the first award given. And they called my name. I'm like, wait a second. Did you just say it was crazy? So I got a biomaterials award. Do you think, do you think more of me now that you know that you're the Walter, Walter White of the, uh, I was, I was, I wish I'd had the hair. I know what those chemicals are. I know. Right. Like, and I don't, I'm not sure that I necessarily am a savant at biomaterials right now, actually. But, uh, I, I was at the time, apparently.

[00:46:28] I've gotten to the point where I cannot remember anything new or taken on any new information. So I'm going to get, I need to give you a little bit of new information right now. I'm going to give you some, and I think your hygienists are probably going to benefit them. How many hygienists do you have? How many hygienists do you work with? Not enough. Not enough. Right now I work with one. One. Okay. Well, you're going to, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to make you her hero by, uh, I'm going to tell you about the pink petal. It's from Zerk.

[00:46:56] Our friends at Zerk have this really cool, uh, they, they can basically take any saliva ejector and turn it into a continuous hands-free suction machine. It's called the pink petal. And, and the petal part comes from, it kind of looks like the petal of a flower and it attaches to the, to it. Like you, you sort of bend the, bend the saliva ejector over into like a J shape and you slide this thing on there. And all of a sudden you've turned, you just sneak it in between the, uh, between the patient's cheek and their teeth. And it holds the saliva ejector right, like right where you need it.

[00:47:25] So for instance, if you're doing, if you're a hygienist, you're doing, you know, the ultrasonic and you're spraying water all over everything. All of a sudden this thing is right where you need it. And it gives you a free hand. Like the hand that you used to use to like retract the tongue with this thing and stuff all of a sudden you've got a free hand. I'm thinking probably drink coffee or maybe compose a symphony or something like that. Cause you've got a free hand. Shoot some guns. Yeah. Put up some targets in the office. I think, I think you're going to have a free hand to do other stuff with, with the,

[00:47:54] uh, with the, I'll take it. Okay. But what, but wait, but wait, if you use the promo code hacks seven on Zerk's websites, you're going to go to dental hacks.com slash pink pedal and you're going to order a box of 50. The 50 pack is normally, normally $25. You're going to get seven bucks off cause you use the promo code hacks seven. So it's an 18, $18 for 50 of these buggers. So here's, that's a great way to get into this. If it sounds like something you think your office, your, your hygienist might like, it's

[00:48:23] a really inexpensive way to do it, but you got to go to their website, dental hacks.com slash pink pedal, and then use the promo code hack seven. And this is a really ingenious thing. It's like, you look at it, you're like, well, it's not anything, you know, it's not like anything massive or anything like that, but someone smart thought of it. Actually, it was a hygienist that thought of it. So go figure. She was thinking herself, I'd like an extra hand so I can shoot some guns or write a symphony. And, and so she invented it. I'm pretty sure that's how it went.

[00:48:52] No one has a hygienist, probably the guns. Yeah. Actually, you know, Michigan, man, people have guns. I'm sure Virginia's like that too. They got guns all over the place. You never know. I sneak up on anybody. That said, I can't say that our friends at Zerk necessarily condone, you know, they want to give you a free hand. They're not really making judgments about what you do with the free hand. But again, one last time, go to dentalhacks.com slash pink pedal and use the promo code hack seven to save seven bucks off a 50 pack. This is a great value.

[00:49:20] So if this has been any interest to you, we've been talking about it for the last month. You should definitely try this one out. This is a good promo. So Zerk is good stuff. Zerk is good stuff. It's all good stuff. And they're good people too, man. Just in case you want to know how good of people there are, you should call them. Just like ask them a question. And they're all the sweetest. They're, they're, they're Minnesotans. And so they're like automatically Minnesota nice, but they're like all the nicest people you've ever met in your life. So definitely worth like check it out. Zerk stuff. So what was, what was your least favorite class in dental school?

[00:49:51] Dental materials? Probably. We are polar opposites, man. It's like, we're mirror images, but here's the thing. Are you the good one? Are you the evil one? I'm not sure. I have definitely the evil one. Yeah. I was going to say that because I'm pretty awesome. Yeah. So materials was not your, your strong suit. Is that what you're saying? No, I pretty much skipped an entire implant class and, and dental school. They're probably going to come back and rescind my diploma at this point. That's right. I'm sorry.

[00:50:20] There's probably somebody out there. Just, just what's the statute of limitations on taking somebody's diploma back? I was going to say they're going to make you, they're going to make you take some courses over again. And of course now it costs a lot more than it did when you were in dental school. So you're getting back. I passed on boards and I didn't cheat. Um, you know, so that, you know, well, I do remember the taking the boards and getting to one part and, and one of the guys in our class says there's an endo part to this.

[00:50:51] Yeah, buddy. Have you seen like everybody else in the, in the class, like preparing these teeth and getting ready for this, this thing? What was your, what was your endo board? Like what'd you have to do? Did you have to have an extracted tooth? Uh, we had an extracted tooth and we had to set it in a cube of acrylic and you had to put like a little blob of wax at the end. You had to make a periapical radiolucency.

[00:51:18] But evidently we found out that, uh, cause if you went into the little piece of wax and they saw it on the x-ray, then you failed, but evidently they had learned that some of the classes before had decided to go back and put them in the microwave. So it would melt the wax into a uniform, to a uniform, uh, consistency back again. So if you screwed it up, I love it.

[00:51:44] Microwave heat the wax up and it goes back to, so we were, they watched us closely. So we didn't go put our teeth in the microwave. It's human ingenuity, right? Like you give us a rule, you give us a rule and we're going to find a way around it at some point. That's for sure. That was like dental school in a nutshell. I'll, I'll, I'll always remember that. That was pretty funny. Our endo, our endo boards were, is typodon. There was a typodon endo tooth. It was an upper endo tooth. It was like, it was eight or nine and you accessed it and you instrumented it and you filled it.

[00:52:14] And, um, I perfed Buckley, uh, badly, badly. Didn't know, didn't know I had perfed Buckley for like an hour and a half. Everyone else was well on to the rest of their typodon stuff. And I was still trying to do the endo. And then I realized that the endo, I was completely screwed on the endo. So I'd burned a bunch of time and I'd for sure fail the endo. Now I didn't know that you could fail one thing and still pass. So I was in, I was desperate. I was, I was just, I almost walked out and I might as well have, cause I did, I did fail

[00:52:43] cause I didn't, I didn't get my temporary done on time. It was, Oh, what a nightmare. And actually I did the perio the first day past the, and the, and the operative on a patient did, did fine on that. It was just the dumb type on stuff that I failed on yet. They made me bring a patient back for when I took it the second time. Oh, I'm like now my blood pressure's up and stuff talking about boards. My God. My, my son just came down and snuck up on me and shoved a Pokemon card in my face. Nice. Nice.

[00:53:13] What Pokemon is it? I have no idea. Okay. Yeah. I wouldn't either, but my son, my son has an encyclopedia about that. Yeah. Oh, that's, I could have told you every GI Joe character in 1986, but now that's that part of my brain has died long time. Yeah. I was, I was always, I was a comic book guy. I was a Mar particularly Marvel, but I was a big comic. So, so this is like the last 10, 15 years of movies has been like the greatest thing ever. Cause these are the comic books I read growing up and now all of a sudden this live action

[00:53:42] and they spend millions and billions of dollars on the stuff. So, so tell me when you were, when you were finishing up dental school, tell me about like how they recruited you and what, like, like I said, you know, I just never noticed that stuff, even though I'm sure it was going on, but like, what did they do? Like, were there group practices that were recruiting? Were there, were there, you know, individual dentists? How, how were, you know, how were people looking for jobs and stuff when you were getting close to graduate?

[00:54:12] As, as we, uh, as we pretty much established, I am a total screw up. So I'm right. Obviously I'm every story I tell you is how badly I've failed at everything. So yeah, I'm right there with you. Uh, when I got out of dental school, I was a intellectual midget and a, had the sensibilities of a, a petulant child evidently. Um, and I probably still do a little bit.

[00:54:39] Um, as you can see from my Facebook posts, but, um, but no, I was, I was a total child coming out into the world. I had a degree, but you know, that didn't help me very much. Um, went through a string of several awkward interviews with, with local dentists. Obviously you get the ones that, that, uh, burn through dentists like every three months that are, are the first ones that are, uh, perpetually, perpetually hiring.

[00:55:08] Cause people go into work for a couple of months and then leave because they're, um, so I interviewed with all of them, um, and, and had some, some interesting interviews and, uh, didn't know what to ask. Didn't, didn't know how much money I was supposed to make. Didn't know pretty much anything. Um, then I started, uh, temping for a while because I didn't really have any other, um, jobs coming in. So I was actually doing some hygiene, um, coming in.

[00:55:37] And, uh, I remember I finally got, I was temping and I finally got a dental job and I told my girlfriend at the time, I was like so excited cause I was going to go out and I was actually going to do some, some dentistry. I wasn't going to do hygiene. Um, and I got out and the guy wanted me to do an apico on a patient. And I was like, I have done like two root canals in my life. I don't think I, I didn't even really know what an apico was at that point. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:08] Um, and, uh, he, so he had me do that and where I didn't really do it. I was like, you know, I can't do this. You know, I don't know how to do that. Um, and then I had to do another crown. I didn't have an assistant. So a crown, I remember it was, this patient was, was pretty, uh, pretty heavy patient. Um, and a number two. Oh my God. And did not give me an assistant. And I had to do a crown on this.

[00:56:37] That was probably about 10 years prior to the ice light being invented. Oh God. Yeah. I was fresh out of school. Yeah. Um, you know, I, and I came home and I just felt so. So dejected. He, he like sent me home early. He's like, you can just go home. Um, I just felt so, so dejected. And it was like, man, I can't find a job. You know, nothing's working. I had to go through this.

[00:57:00] Um, and then I don't know how, how I found out about my, my office that I, that I eventually bought, but, um, I found out about that office. But actually I worked for a little while for another dentist. Okay. Uh, for a couple, couple months. Um, and then found about out about this office and, and went up and, and, and bought this office, which I probably shouldn't have done at the time either.

[00:57:28] Um, and I remember calling up the, calling up the guy, um, the, the, the broker, um, and we'd already signed forms and everything. And I was like, you know, uh, when do we go to closing on this? And he's like, you've, you've already signed all the documents for this. You've, you closed like two weeks. You bought the practice is yours. I can, and you could tell like on the other end of this guy is like, what the hell is wrong with this?

[00:57:56] Um, but I had, I had no frame of reference. I had never bought a car at some point. Uh, you know, I, I'd never, my parents never had any money to buy any other investments or do anything like that. You know, God, I didn't know. And now I just look back and like, oh my God, um, how, how stupid, how stupid was I? And how did I, but, but, okay. How stupid were you? But, but here's, here's, here's a more positive spin on it. Okay.

[00:58:22] So like I had to go take boards a second time and I, like, I, I knew the clinics at the university of Minnesota. Uh, I did not know the clinics at North, Northwestern university, uh, when the boards were being offered then, uh, as it turns out, as it turns out, I think that, I think that either or maybe both Lance Timmerman and maybe Justin Moody were taking boards at the same time there, possibly. I don't know.

[00:58:49] I sort of remember this or I, one of them was there at the same time I was there and I suspect both of them were quite a bit more capable than I were. But like, like I brought patients from my hometown here in Midland to Chicago and I, I did boards in a clinic that I didn't, I'd never been to before. I knew nothing about, and I did that. Like I did that and I passed. And I think to myself, that's a lot of, that's a lot of audacity. I, I, if I had to do that right now, I don't know what I would do. And the same thing with buying a practice, man.

[00:59:18] I, when I walked into this practice, I can't say that it was, I can't say that it was a negotiation. I mean, I look at people that have listened to podcasts about how, like I look at what Richard Lowe is doing and the whole thing. And I'm just like, God, those, those guys are so savvy. They know what to look for in a practice and how to compare one to another and, and, and how to negotiate or, or how to do a start. I didn't know anything. And I, I mean, like everyone was sort of holding my hand, but I had no idea what I was getting into. It just like you said, you know, and just like, I like stumbled into practice ownership.

[00:59:48] But honestly, it was a good, it was good that I did that as same practice I'm in right now for crying out loud, but I didn't know anything. I didn't know anything. I just, it blows my mind that I had the audacity to do that. Like if you held a gun to my head to do the same thing right now, I would, I I'd be too scared. I wouldn't even know, like, it's almost good that I bumbled into that. Cause I, I, I would not have had the audacity to do that now. I don't think. You had any of the whole time, Alan. All you had to do is click your heels together.

[01:00:18] Yeah. But I mean, like you and I have a very similar situation where like all of a sudden we look up and we're practice owners and we don't know anything, you know? Like, uh, I get very jealous of people that have their, their, their together. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I hear people and the guys that we've met in Chicago is like, you know, talking to them and they're, they're senior in dental school and they're like, Oh, I've got this practice and we're going to do this. And we're, you know, I'm, I'm very jealous of that. I wish my brain worked that way.

[01:00:47] And think, think of how you'd hit the ground running. You'd hit the ground running. Cause you just knew some stuff. I know anything, but I have to tell you, I don't know that anyone else around me knew anything either. Like, I don't remember a bunch of my classmates being super on top of how they were going to be like, there was a, there was a ton of them. There had to been at least a quarter of them that were like me going, Oh, I'm just going to get dad's office and you show up and you know, they'll pay me. And my dad overpaid me for two years, probably a year and a half easy. Like, I don't even know if I was, I was probably paid on salary for it. Cause I didn't know anything. I didn't know anything at all. It's just unbelievable.

[01:01:17] I look now and like literally he was in my practice today. He's, he's, he works in my practice on Tuesdays doing removable and you know, what a weird turnabout that is. But I mean, like I was, I, I depended on him just to throw me, you know, I had a schedule and I had, but I know anything. And I, I, I'm so grateful that those patients would bother to, to, to let me work on them cause they've been going to see my dad for a thousand years, you know, then this mope comes in doing what he's supposed to do. I know anything. Oh my gosh.

[01:01:46] And here you are grossly underpaying him. Here, here I am grossly underpaying him and stealing his services. Exactly. Right. It's like, it's a turnabout is not fair play. If anyone ever says it's not true at all, it is completely unfair to my father on all aspects. So, but it is funny that we both, we both, we both stumbled into that stuff. And I mean, do you have regrets being an owner that early?

[01:02:14] I mean, looking back, I'm saying looking back, I should say. No, looking back at looking back, it was a, it was a good, it was actually a good decision. It was, it was an inexpensive practice. Yep. Um, it was actually a distressed practice because the owner was, was sick. Um, but the, but the people in there, um, one of which became my mother-in-law. Well, that's right. That's right.

[01:02:40] Um, so I mean, she, she had the best interest of, of the practice at heart and was a super honest person. Um, and it was not somebody that could have taken advantage of the situation because had, had not those types of people been in there, you know, it, it could have turned out very badly. Um, so I was in, in retrospect, I was actually very lucky to have those people, um, in there

[01:03:07] and in the practice and, you know, um, allow me to do what I did. So I had, I had similar people. Like I had, uh, the guy that I bought the practice from, like literally he left like the month before I bought it, he, he called the office and said, he's never coming in again. And, and so he kind of, I tried that. It never worked. Yeah. Well, it worked for him and the team, the team hung in there. They should teach a class. Yeah.

[01:03:34] I'll tell you what, the team hung in there and, and they, they would refer people out, you know, basically hygiene was running with no dentist, which obviously is not where you're supposed to do it, but they were just kind of limping along and they would send people out if they needed anything while they looked for a dentist. And then, so this consultant my dad was working with was, you know, they, they begged her to help. And so she kind of found me, um, and I came in and I worked in the practice for a couple months before I made an offer on it, you know, as an associate, I just got paid production.

[01:04:03] But, uh, you know, the story was, there was a lot of work to be done. He was a guy who had patched a lot, but the other thing is he was, you know, um, he didn't need the, he had another, he had a side gig going. I'm not sure how much I want to say about his side gig other than that it was questionably legal. Um, but like the dentistry was, he didn't really need to do that. Apparently if it was sunny out, those patients were getting rescheduled and he was going golf and that was kind of how, how he did things. Um, so, I mean, they were just glad to have someone who'd show up and see patients. You should teach a class.

[01:04:33] I'm telling you what, man. Um, they were just glad to, to, they were just glad to have patients that would have a doctor that would see patients. And it was, I mean, it was good. It was so, I was so overwhelmed because it was different than my dad's office. I only had no, I've only worked in two offices my entire life. I've only gotten a paycheck from two different offices my entire life. The one that I own right now and have owned for 21 years and my dad's office, that's it. And, um, like, so I was overwhelmed, but it also was like the people that were there really wanted to make it work.

[01:05:02] The poor woman who, who was kind of the office manager trying to hold it together. She stayed just long enough so she could find another person that she could train to do the office manager job. And just as soon as she felt like this new person was going to be able to do it, she was gone. She was gone. She, she's like, well, okay. I stayed long enough to, to, to make well with this practice and I'm out of here. It was like, it was like six months or something. And it is the same office manager I have right now.

[01:05:29] So, I mean, I've had, I've had Kathy as my office manager for, I don't know, 20, 20 plus years. Isn't that crazy? It's like grow old together. Um, and then I hired my, the, the assistant that is like my, my main assistant right now. I hired her 19 years ago. So I've had all these people with me through, and of course they all went through some pretty bad stuff with me and they're still, they're still in my practice. It's weird that way. But I, I don't know other practices, how they work like firsthand because it's the only practice I've really worked in. You've worked in a few anyhow.

[01:05:59] So, and you've actually owned a few. Tell me, how many practices have you owned? Like total. Uh, well I had the one in Fredericksburg and that was like the main one. That's the first one, right? That was the first one. That was the one that I bought. That was, uh, six months out of school. Um, and, and, uh, grew that and then opened up. I'm so glad you say that because that's exactly what I was too. Like we so totally walked into that. I'm sorry, go ahead.

[01:06:26] Uh, then I opened up a, a, a, a, a satellite office down closer to my house, which is the downtown, um, office, which I still have today. Um, which has been a slow burn. Um, and then my third office was actually a, a partnership that I did with another doctor in, uh, Fredericksburg. Yeah. Um, which was another startup that I did.

[01:06:51] Um, and then I left that partnership after about a year and a half. I think it was. Um, and then I started, uh, my, my other office in Richmond, which is one of my current offices and our other, um, then I sold the original one. Okay. Um, and then we're getting ready to do another startup in, uh, in Richmond, uh, this, this summer. Yeah. You're still, you're still doing, putting all of that together.

[01:07:20] So, so how many practices do you own right now? I own two right now. Okay. And you work in both of them? I do. Yeah. Kind of part-time ish. I'm kind of, I come in and do some of the more specialty procedures and. Yeah. So we're still building. Yeah. My associate came back from maternity leave, so she's not working quite. She's working about three days a week. Okay. Okay. Um, so I'm kind of filling in the gaps everywhere else. All right. Nice. Okay.

[01:07:48] Um, so like, it's really funny because you've worked in a lot of different practices and mind you, I understand that they all have different, different stuff, but like in, in retrospect to work as a dentist is in like the clinical mix and, and the, the, you know, sheer enjoyment of working. What practice would you say is your, your favorite that way? I know that obviously there's lots of reasons to be working in different practices, so I'm not asking you to like trash your other, but like what, what is your best working situation, Ben?

[01:08:16] Um, I like my current working situation. I mean, I've, we've kind of, uh, streamlined the process a little bit. I have a really good assistant right now who kind of can like read my mind. Yeah. Um, nothing better by that. You know what? I could probably work on a tree stump if, if I had to, if I had, if I had a really good assistant who is just kind of, when you just jive, that's, that's when it's really good.

[01:08:43] So, I mean, it's, it seems like I'll have somebody like that for a couple of years and then life kind of happens or things change and then you don't have that person. And then, then, then you find somebody like that again. So, um, I'm just, just enjoying it right now. If I can, if I can, um, so that's, but I really could, I could work on a, I could work on a tree stump if I had to, if I had a good assistant. I've worked in different situations and I have come to find that the office that I'm

[01:09:11] in now, um, I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's like better setups, but I really have put this setup together the way that I like it. I mean, this is, I've been in this office for, I, I, I moved into the current office in August or we started September of 2013. So it was before we started the podcast. I've been almost six years in this office. And I, I, like I've told you before the office I was in before the suite that it was so bad that anything was going to be a huge step up.

[01:09:39] But I actually, we've, we sort of put this one together and I like, I like it. I like the way that it works. It works much better for me. Um, I'm sure there's better setups, but this one's pretty good. It's, I, and I have to tell you that I am, I've become fussy about stuff. Like, I don't know that I would work as well if, if you pick me up and put me in another office, it would take a little bit because I'm used to my electric hand pieces and I'm, I'm used to having certain material. I'm, I think I might be more sensitive to that stuff than a lot of them. My dad can show up and do anything anywhere.

[01:10:08] Like he's just like, Oh, make it work. You know, one of those things I'm like, and I'm, I'm not as, it sounds like you can do that too. I'm not very good at that. I mean, if I had, if I had a million dollars to be able to do stuff, I've, my offices, I've kind of, you know, I'll come across deals on chairs or things like that. So, I mean, you come in and this, this light turns on this way and this light turns on this way. You know, you've got 15 different lights. Ideally, I would love everything to be exactly the same.

[01:10:34] And some may argue that I may be losing money with some of that, um, where I could be spending on that to get that uniformity. But, um, maybe my nose, my two, my two ops that I work out of are pretty much identical. Like there are days where I'll walk into the wrong one because they're so, they're so similar. Like, like the color of my operator's stool is slightly different in one and the other. And that's about it. Like they're, they're very, I didn't, you know, we did that on purpose because we kind of put it together, you know, in, in that way. But it is funny.

[01:11:04] They're, they're, they're, they are so close to identical that it sometimes throws me a little bit, but it's only two operatories. You know, it's not so hard to do with two operatories. You were talking about muscle memory and, and how efficiency can be helped by having some of that. Like, like you drop into that place. I was just going to say, like, I hit a flow state. I don't do it very, as much as I should, but I hit a flow state. Like if I got to do a bunch of resins, if I can, if I can be under a rubber dam with the microscope, it's, it is, I'm, I'm there.

[01:11:34] It's where I, it's like, I'm, I get really comfortable with it, but I don't do that as often as I should for a lot of reasons. Your patient can't open whatever, something like that. But I know what you're talking about with the, uh, you know, having, having sort of a muscle memory thing. And I don't, I think the uniformity probably helps with that somewhat, but I also know that that tends to, you almost have to have an organizational principle about that's how you're going to do it. You know, that's interesting. Yeah. I mean, even like grabbing a burr, having a burr in the same spot or having, you know,

[01:12:04] just the same handpiece, you know, that they're putting the burr in the handpiece. It's just the little things. Yeah. No, I think that's right. And I think that that efficiency, when you can work at that, I'm definitely not that efficient. I tend to be, I probably, uh, the wasted movements definitely add up in my, in my operatory to be sure. And I, I would say that there's good reason to actually work on that to be better than I am at that. But, um, I mean, part of it is, you know, finding your ideal enjoyable day and how you like to do it.

[01:12:33] Um, I want to tell you a little bit about one of our sponsors here. We have a, um, something new that, that Cosminent is doing. They have a sort of, okay. So, you know, Bob Margis, Bob Margis is literally one of the greatest teachers in dentistry and he's a very sweet guy. Hi, Bob. Hi, Bob. How you doing? That's right. Bob's a listener for crying out loud. So he'll even, he'll even know this, but like every time I've run into Bob, he goes, oh my God, I listen to you guys all the time. And I'm like, really? Cause I thought your standards were a little higher, Bob. I'm just saying.

[01:13:00] But, um, so Bob, Bob recently, uh, taught a course at Cosminent. He's been teaching it for a while. It's called practical tips for utilizing composite in composite resin in the everyday practice. So basically this is Bob's course where he teaches all different kinds of composite like techniques. Like, like for instance, some of the hands-on exercises they did were they created an immediate screw retained provisional crown, an anterior crown. What a great idea.

[01:13:27] Like, like you kind of know how to do it, but wouldn't it be great to watch Bob do it and show you how he does it so you could walk home, you know, you could use that like literally the next, the next time you're, you know, uncovering an implant or whatever, or placing one even. What about those little basic steps? Yeah. Yeah. What about if, what about the, this happens to me all the frigging time and I would love to see how Bob does it. I haven't seen this particular, um, demonstration yet. So let's say you have a patient, uh, you took a front tooth out on them.

[01:13:55] Uh, you know that eventually they're going to do a bridge. They're going to do an implant, but it's, it's not an immediate situation. You can do it. You want to have a provisional that'll last them for a little while while they heal. You want it to look like a tooth. So you, you fabricate like a resin retained bridge. You bond between this thing and he's basically going, yeah, this is a great provisional. You know, you can use certain materials to make this last as long as you need it to, because I have to tell you, I do that stuff. And a lot of times it doesn't last as long as you'd like it to, because you got to let it heal for a little while.

[01:14:24] He's got one too, where he, he's showing you how to mask a dark tooth using, using a lot of the materials they have at Cosmin. So he recorded this course earlier this year and it's obviously a great course has tons of good hands-on stuff, has tons of great lecture stuff. And he's a really good teacher and he's a really sweet guy. And now you can get this course virtually at the, at Cosmin. Wow. I literally just rolled over the video and Bob's voice came through my headphones so loud. I watching you. I'm going to cry. Exactly.

[01:14:51] So, uh, and actually if you want to see that video, you're going to go to dentalhacks.com slash Marges virtual, M-A-R-G-E-A-S virtual. And you're going to go right to that page. You can see him talk, talk, there's a video of him talking about the course and everything like that. But the other thing is if you sign up for, uh, the course, you go to that website. So dentalhacks.com slash Marges virtual and use the coupon code hacks. When you sign up, you get a hundred bucks off this course. So the course regular price, uh, which is basically you buy it, you have it forever.

[01:15:20] Regular price is 695 bucks. You're going to get it for 595 bucks. This is like, this is hours and hours of CE. You get the CE credits as well. Uh, there's a little quiz at the end, all that stuff. So it's, it's just, it's a great deal. Cosmin is easing into this online space where they have their amazing courses, but you don't have to travel to Chicago if you can't do it. It's a really cost effective way to do it. You get Bob Marges for crying out loud. How great is that? So you guys have to check out loud for crying out loud.

[01:15:47] So one more time, dentalhacks.com slash Marges, M-A-R-G-E-A-S virtual and, uh, use the coupon code hacks, get a hundred bucks off that course. It's, uh, they have good stuff there. I mean, let's be honest, Jason and I are a little, we have a little soft spot for a Cosmin courses. We've learned some good stuff there and that's where we met all those many years ago. I feel like there should be music playing in the background or something. I don't know. That's where the bromance started.

[01:16:16] Lift us up where we belong. So I do want to ask you this before we go. This is, this is like my question that I ask lots of people. Okay. So what is your ideal clinical day? Like start to finish? Like, let's say, let's say Jason is setting up the perfect clinical day for production, for just enjoying stuff, everything, you know, do you like big cases? Do you like small cases? You know, do you like, what's your, what's your perfect clinical day?

[01:16:46] I had a day the other day and I came home and was like, no, I could do that over and over and over. That's the day, man. That's the day. Exactly. Like that's the dream. Um, I think I came in, I had like one crown in the morning and the guy came in and actually needed two crowns. So we did the two crowns. Um, then we had a couple of fillings in between, um, did sleep apnea appliance delivery.

[01:17:12] Um, had some lunch, check some hygiene patients before that, um, came back and did a couple more crowns. Everything ended up on time, check some hygiene. Um, you know, no fuss, no muss. Everything just went, went pretty well. The temporary spit on there, wrap it up and go home, Johnny. Yeah. No, I mean like, like, and that's, that's the kind of thing where my ideal day is going to have probably three or four crown preps. Probably.

[01:17:42] I have singletons are perfectly fine with me or a couple at a time. That's cool. I don't want to be doing full arch stuff or anything like that. I'm, I'm just talking that the simple, easy ones I'd love to be doing some anterior resins. Like that's, that's like a sweet spot for me. I love that. Um, they're fun for me. Uh, I, I actually don't even mind doing some endo when it's, when it's relatively easy. I know throw that in there too. I got to tell you, I have some days I have two hygienists and some days I have one and

[01:18:07] I'm going to tell you, I know for productivity, I need to have two or more, but I like having one hygienist. That's like the right amount of, that's the right amount of breaks in what I'm doing. And you know, I, uh, a hygiene check every hour so I can get up, stretch my legs, that sort of thing. That's all right. But having to do two and trying to, you know, you always try and fit the hygiene checks in well during the day. So you're not disrupting a lot of other stuff. And that's, that's not easy. That's like, and they're not, you know, I just aren't doing it out of malice, but there

[01:18:36] are times I'm like, of course this is exactly when you need me. Um, so I, I like, I prefer to have one hygienist or no hygienist. The few days where we'll run because the hygienist is on vacation or sick or something like that or snow day or whatever, man, I love that. But then again, that's a lot more lazy time at that point. You're, I probably have holes in my schedule too. So I don't know. I, I enjoy, I enjoy kind of the basics. That's, that's sort of an ideal day. The basics in a day, like you said, that is, that it, that goes smoothly where I'll, you know, you're not running over time.

[01:19:06] You're not, you know, that sort of thing. I do enjoy that. I don't mind being busy. I just don't like it to be like, oh my God, are we ever going to get out of here? Yeah. My dad pretty much for, for however long he ran his practice, a lot of years, he ran like that. Oh man. He just, he would, he would have three and four chairs going at once and they were all, you know, three or four of his chairs, always two hygienists, three or four of his chairs. And that's just, and he just loved that. He thrived in it. And I just, I think about that and it makes me anxious.

[01:19:35] Oh my God, that's hard. I, I, I, I'm blown away by what he was able to do. And I tried to do that. It wasn't the right fit for me. Live your best life. Yeah, exactly. He comes in, he comes in, he'll ask me if my schedule is busy. He'll say, oh yeah, we're, we're, we're jammed. We're, and he'll look at it. I go, you're not jammed. Trust me. You are not jammed. Like, I know, I know, but it is what it is. It's disappointing. I know. I know your sister's so much better than you. We like her a lot more. Oh my gosh.

[01:20:04] Well, you know, we should do a, we should do that, that part in the show where my voice goes funny and I say, go hack yourself. I say, well, I never. All right, J lips, let's bring it home. What's your go hack yourself this week? Well, I've been trying the latest release from 3M, 3M universal. Phil tech. Phil tech universal. I think that is what it is. Yeah. Yes. Um, so I've been using that here lately.

[01:20:32] I've been trying to get back into my bioclear. Yeah. Bioclear, bioclear, bioclear. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I've been using it on some posteriors, uh, too. Uh, the color matching is great. Yes. Um, been using the different bonding protocols that I learned at bioclear. Yeah. Uh, heating that stuff up in my new little heater. Yeah. Plugging that stuff in. Um, I haven't had any complaints. Everything's looking good. I've got 3M universal a little bit too.

[01:21:00] And one of the things I like is it's, it's much simplified with regard to color. Like, like it doesn't have a really complicated, like there's, they've, they've done that on purpose. I want to say that there, it's not, it's not as simple as Omnichroma where it's like one, one color, one, one ring to rule them all. Um, but it's pretty close. Like it's, they don't have as many colors because it's got, apparently it's got some of the same unicorn tears that Omnichroma does and, and supposedly it blends a lot better. So that's, it's cool. It's good stuff.

[01:21:29] And now it's available for, uh, for like to buy. So I'm, I, I podcasted with Josh for the daily Josh Austin and he's, he was talking about that too. So it's, it's, it's coming. If you have a chance to try it, you guys, you need to try it cause you're, it's going to change the way you look at stuff. It's really good stuff. Get yourself some. Get yourself some. All right. So my go hack yourself is, uh, I know I've talked about this on the show before guy by the name of John Sanford. He's an author. He writes, he writes crime fiction stuff.

[01:21:58] He's got two characters, um, Lucas Davenport and Virgil flowers. And the latest Lucas Davenport novel came out today. It's called neon prey. It's really good. I'm already, I'm already totally hooked. It took no time at all. He does this every time. The only problem with these books is that I'll, I will like not listen to any podcast or anything like that. I just binge listen to this thing. So it's over too quickly. I'm trying to make it, I'm trying to stretch it out, but it's really good. Now the one cool thing about this was, um, John Sanford lived just down the road from

[01:22:27] the university of Minnesota dental school and his wife at the time, unfortunately she, she died of cancer in 2007, but his wife was an endodontist and she actually taught at the dental school and she was really nice. She was, she was great teacher, really like one of those crazy smart people. And she, she was not, um, you wouldn't know it. She didn't like flaunt it over. She was super nice. And, uh, I literally had no idea that, that they were married until later. Like I, I just started reading some of his books. I did.

[01:22:56] I missed my chance to like hang out with John Sanford, but a great book. God, I, he's, he's my favorite author. I swear to God, he really is. Like, I just, I just mow through his books. So if you get a chance, neon prey, you're going to like it. I'll put it in the show notes. So Jason, we crushed it. I never learned to read. Yeah. I mean, for the literate ones, otherwise do it like I do, which is audible. Of course, as if I use my eyes to read, don't be silly. My eyes. Damn these eyes. I know. I, I swear.

[01:23:26] I, the challenge for me is to actually read a book like with my eyes. It's, it's a tough, tough ask. I refuse. Well, you know, and the story is with the commute. It's my excuse. I don't read with my eyes cause I got to drive. So people could get hurt that way. All right, Jason, we crushed this one. I appreciate you, uh, opening the book and showing us into your life. We talked, we mostly talked about dental school stuff, which was cool. It was fun. It's like a Delilah episode. It is.

[01:23:55] It is a Delilah episode. I don't know. Maybe we should call that episode that. I don't know. All right, my man. Well, Hey, listen, we will, uh, we'll get back together real soon here and we'll, we'll catch you guys next week. Let's do it. Take care. Let's do it.