Very Dental Classics: The Implant Pathway Story with Dr. Justin Moody

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[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_01] This is a production of the Very Dental Podcast Network. This is the Very Dental Podcast. Welcome to the Very Dental Podcast, where you'll find entertaining and relevant conversations with visionaries, clinicians, and your friends in the dental space. Now, here's your host, Dr. Alan Mead.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01] And, verydental people, welcome to another episode of the Very Dental Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Alan Mead. Joining me, a triumphant return, really, because it's been a little while, Dr. Justin Moody. Justin, how you doing? Oh, man, I'm great. How are you? I'm good. It's good to see you. I think the last time I saw you, like, face-to-face was in Scottsdale for Voices of Dentistry 2023. So that was more than a year ago. That is correct. That is freaking wild. I haven't been in a plane for more than a year.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_01] Like, somehow or another, since VoD 2023, I've become a hermit, I guess.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I mean, you got kiddo and...

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I got plenty of stuff to do. Don't get me wrong.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, you got life, you got snow to shovel, and like, you got lots of stuff to do, man. I don't think I've been on this podcast, actually.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01] I'm not sure you have either. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. I know we do the Alan Media experience on this. Maybe early on. But yeah, it's... So welcome. Welcome. I mean, Justin is coming to me from... Are you in Scottsdale right now? I am. I am. Yep. Okay. So he's in Arizona. I woke up to snow, Justin. Do you miss that at all?

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_02] No. When I opened the blinds, there was a pool and a cactus and nothing but sunshine. So yeah, I don't miss that.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, you're not feeling horrible. I mean, you had plenty of that. Don't get me wrong. I mean, you're from Nebraska. So you know a little bit about snow and wind and prairie and all that stuff.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_02] If I want to hear about it, I'll call my dad and my brother and ask them how the cattle are doing. So yeah.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_01] Do you ever just tell them, no, I'm not coming home because I don't need any of that? Or do you go... How often do you get to Nebraska?

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_02] I try to go home twice a year and I make them come to me more than that, hopefully.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, honestly, it's hard to argue. You know, having friends in Arizona, you don't get a lot of Arizonans going, no, no, really. I want to come visit you in Michigan in February. That sounds great. Not February. Not February. I got to say, I went to the midwinter a couple of weeks ago and it was like 68 degrees in Chicago. Midwinter, you know midwinter. Midwinter is a roll of the dice. It could be 70 degrees or it could be 20 below. It could be anything. With the wind howling, yes. Yeah, exactly. So, so Moody and I, I saw him at the Voice of Dentistry in 2023.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_01] And then we kind of, it's been, I talk with him and I text with him and stuff, but I haven't seen him very much. And so a lot of stuff has happened, I think, since I saw you last. So last time I saw you, you were in, the implant pathway was in, actually, I thought it was a pretty cool building. It was the one, like I said, with all the courtyards and you sort of, if I remember correctly, you started there with a couple suites and then sort of like just oozed out and absorbed more of the suites of this area.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_01] Tell me a little bit about that building and how it all started and how it grew.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_02] Well, it's interesting. You know, actually Howard Fran talks about this building. It's called 6200 South McClintock. And it was built in the seventies and it had 12, no, it has 10 suites in it. And 100% of the suites were dentistry when they built the building. Interesting. 10 dental offices are the, the building was interesting too, because it shared a common vacuum and a common air compressor.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_01] So my gosh, one of the 10 suites.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Like this thing wouldn't fit in like, well, this, my office here, all the equipment wouldn't fit in it. And one of the things that was, was it made the other suites quiet because you didn't have, so it was a, it was a much quieter atmosphere because you didn't have a. Now, with that being said, when, you know, just about when we were getting out of there, the, the, the vacuum had this problem of overflowing and like, oh, disgusto.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_02] So, but you know, by the time we left, there was just a general dentist and orthodontist to periodontist and us. So from, so from 10, from starting at 10 suites that were all dentistry, it was down to five. Okay. But, uh, we just kind of outgrew it. You know, we started with, uh, where we, we, there were, when we were looking to start our own, uh, you know, get our own facility.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, you know, I got a realtor, looked around and he come back with me and he said, Hey, he goes, there's this suite in a tempi. And, um, it was, uh, what, once we was orthodontist suite, one was a, uh, uh, nine chair, uh, that would like, and he goes, they left everything, but the, the, the chairs.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_03] Mm-hmm.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_02] So to get started, all we did was, you know, we bought night, we bought nine chairs, uh, computers to run it. And we were off, you know, like the, the clinic was up and running. Uh, and then the, the ortho suite, we actually, it was an open debate concept. So we didn't have to do much. We turned that into the, the lecture room, uh, couple offices and the cafe, the, and the, you know, yeah. Itching. And yeah, I remember that.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_01] We opened the podcast studio in the podcast.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_02] Oh yeah. So yeah, that was out front. Yeah.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_01] Yep. That was, you could look, you could like look out into the, into the, uh, the courtyard of this. This is an interesting building actually. So then, and then, so you slowly kind of grew into absorbing some of the suites as you went.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, that was 20 April of 2018 when we went in there. And then, uh, in 2019, uh, the only way we could increase class size was to either go back to a hotel, which we'll talk about the, the, the, how miserable that is, uh, to do the didactic and then come back to the clinic or then another one, another suite opened up. Uh, and so we kind of gutted it and turned it into a learning center so that we could have tables and chairs and hands-ons and stuff.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_02] And it was, uh, uh, it would see 24 docs and that was awesome. So we went from, you know, we read from, uh, barely being able to see 12 to almost doubling to, uh, to 24. Mm-hmm . And then in, uh, January of 2020, uh, another suite came open. That was a dental clinic and we're like, okay, well now we need, we need more chairs, uh, for the nonprofit to work in while we actually did the course.

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_02] So, uh, we committed to building that in January of 2020 and then the Rona showed up. And, uh, uh, you know, we, I always, you know, you, you, you, you know me, but I, I always gamble on myself, you know, I'm always going to bet on myself and I was like, you know what? This can't last forever. So, uh, the contractor was like, yeah, man, like we can, we can build through this thing. So, uh, they just went at it. And then, then October of 2020, we opened up another nine suite.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_02] And then after that we acquired, uh, that was a four suites. And then, uh, we needed, we needed, uh, uh, I, I acquired another smaller unit for myself and, uh, four holes and ask for our private practices or for our private offices. Then we, another one popped up, uh, that was really small, but just had three offices and

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01] we put, uh, real estate agents around there must've just let you just said Mark, man, you're just every, every they're, they're probably threatening the people in these, we get out of here. We got a sucker on the line. We got this guy. He's going to buy it for sure.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And you know what? Um, and I'm not, I'm not sad because of where I'm at today, but, uh, had a chance to buy this thing, uh, in 2019, but it wasn't in a spot to be like, that's a lot of money, you know, like, you know, this and that. And then, um, uh, they sold it for, well, they, someone else bought it in 2019 and then they resold it in 21 for twice the money. And I'm just like, I don't shoot, but whatever, you know, like, uh, no, I get it. Where we're at is a much better.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_01] So yeah. And the reality is, is that like what's, what's unspoken here is that implant pathway was, it was an idea whose time had come clearly because it was, it was growing and you had, there was enough demand where you're like, man, we got it. We got to have a bigger place to do the courses. That's what I'm reading into this.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_02] And, you know, uh, you know, we, we were, we were really maxed at that, that old facility. We were maxed out in the person that bought it the last time, you know, they wanted to double yet again. I was just like, well, that's ridiculous. Uh, so I, I, I looked at like, okay, so if I was to buy this, because the only way I could grow with the old facility was literally to, uh, kick everyone else out, take over all, take over all the spaces.

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_02] Cause it, the whole, the entire building was 22,000 square feet and we had six of the 10 suites already. Uh, so we were at like 12,000 and some on, uh, feet. And then I was just like, okay. So then I went back to that realtor and I was like, Hey, like, you know, cause this was still at a time in 21 when commercial real estate wasn't hot, like, uh, you know, residential, you know, uh, near Scottsdale, you know, residential as a cool golf at all. Yeah.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_02] Crazy town. Um, but, uh, he came back to me and he says, well, this is kind of a perfect storm. So, uh, uh, the, the building in this, uh, for this almost 50,000 square foot building, uh, was Cox communications call center. Uh, and so it had 280 cubicles. Yeah. Uh, with desks and chairs and all this crazy stuff.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_02] And that's a lot of cubicles.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00] Wow.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_02] And then there was a, there was another financial, uh, uh, company that had a 10,000, uh, had a, had a lease at one end. And I was just like, all right. And then, uh, the, the, the owner of this building, you know, wasn't Cox communication, but the owner of the building was actually the owner of Carvana. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Well, it was about that time. Carvana started hitting the skids and, uh, he needed cash to, uh, influx back into, uh, Carvana.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_02] So, uh, so we, we picked up this building for, you know, what I thought was pretty reasonable rate. And, uh, uh, we built it out. And, uh, now today that new Ryzen's, uh, uh, dental clinic, which is the 501 C three nonprofit provide patients for implant pathway. It has 32 chairs, uh, uh, uh, 32 operatories, this, uh, uh, lab, uh, office space for the four residents and the three full-time dentists.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02] And, uh, uh, you know, and then, uh, implant pathway, which we now kind of call the pathway because we do so much.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_01] It's, it's not just implants. Yeah. No, I mean, that's one of the things that happens and I still only know implants, but, uh, sure. Yeah. But you got other, you got other people that can help you with that. I've heard there's other kinds of education that goes on there. Uh, it is, it is funny because, okay. So part of it, you've got like, you did mention a perfect storm and this, this story is a little bit of a perfect storm. Oh, so tell me implant pathway did not start in that first building. We were talking about, you were doing implant pathway in hotels. Is that right?

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_02] Oh yeah. Yeah. Uh, I look back, uh, did my first course in, uh, uh, February of 2016. Okay. Okay. In, uh, Orange County, California. Okay. Uh, and a hotel. And, uh, it was funny because I was like, you know what? So I put like, you don't talk about money. Those are like, so I put like $30,000 worth of marketing into the Los Angeles, California. And you think about 2016, it is 20, even 2016, eight years ago. Yeah.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_02] Instagram and Facebook was not what it is today. Like that's not, that's not how people like they were just communicating with friends. Yep. So we did direct mailers, like all this, like, you know, ask the reps, you know, all this stuff. I got eight people to come to the first course. Wow. And not a single one of them lived in California. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I'm all over the, uh, and so I asked one day, you know, the, one of the shine reps

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_02] had come by and I was just like, uh, I was like, I didn't even draw one person. There's like, well, how heavy did you market, uh, Orange County? He goes specifically, he goes, he goes, you would need to, you would not need to market more than two miles, three miles from the center of where you're doing your mark. And I was like, what? He goes, there's no chance someone in LA County would drive to Anaheim.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_02] To do a course like zero chance. And I was like, really?

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_01] Cause it's like 12 miles. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, yeah, no chance. You're the least California person in the entire world, by the way. It's just like, I would never have put that together either, by the way. I didn't either.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_02] Right.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01] You know what I mean?

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_02] I'm, I grew up where it's 24 miles to the next town. Exactly.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_01] In Nebraska, like just, just going into the store is a, you know, is a 50 mile round trip. You know, it's like, I get it. I get it. I mean, it's not, it's not that different from where I am. Yeah. Yeah. So you, so Orange County was not going to draw from LA and the hotel, any, any potential profitability, the hotel probably ate that pretty quick. Cause they want to charge you $8 for a hard boiled egg and shit like that. So, and you know, 60 gallons for a gallon of coffee, 60 bucks for a gallon of coffee.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. And it's like, so, but at this point now, and like, as you know, uh, you gotta go just do the course because it's more, you lose even more money by canceling. That's the re-run. I was like, so I, uh, went out to, uh, uh, Orange County did the course. And I will tell you that, uh, the, the eight docs are in there. I know every, every single one of them by name. Uh, they, I think almost all of them have, uh, taken damn near every course that we've had.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_01] So they've stuck, they stuck with it.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02] They stuck with it.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_01] A couple of them are our surgical mentors.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_02] Mentors.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_02] So, uh, it was a great start as, as you look back on it.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_01] It's, it's weird how, how sticky those times were in the fact that like, okay, let's just, let's just put that into perspective. When you and I met in person for the first time, was it VoD 2017? Okay. Like that was, that was in Nashville and that was the first one. And what I remember is it was days before or after Trump was inaugurated. Yes. Just, just, just to give you a, so, I mean, like we had, it was January of 2017.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01] So he had just been, he was either going to be, or had just been inaugurated that, I mean, it seems like a really long time ago, you know, like it's, it's, it's not that long ago, but it seems like a really long time ago. But even then that that's around the same time you were starting teaching pathway stuff.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. It was, uh, uh, yeah, we were in 2017, we were doing, um, you know, from 16, we went from really not having any place for the original courses didn't have any live surgical components. Yeah.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02] Didactic.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_01] Can you even imagine someone looking at an implant course now without that didn't have some kind of surgical part of it? I mean, I took, I took Garg's course and we got to drill on, uh, on cadaver heads at one point. That was, that was, that was great. Yeah.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_02] You know, there are, uh, you know, it's funny, you know, as times are, when times are good, you know, uh, you know, the, the market floods with the new, you know, teaching institutes and people that want to do this. Uh, and you know what, there's a lot of, you know, you know, we graduated 8,800 dentists a year. We got 150,000 of them out there. You know, I train 500 a year and you know, which are a big, you know, which is a big number, but sure. It's the end of the day.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_02] It there's, there's more than enough for the, yeah, for everyone else. So it's not a, it's a world of, it's a world of abundance, not, it is, it is, but, but I,

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01] what, what makes me laugh and this is, this is the second part of the perfect storm. When did Arizona's, um, you know, ability for someone to get that provisional license to work? When did that become a thing? Well, has that been a thing or, or did it come a thing?

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_02] It's been a thing in the, uh, uh, the good Samaritan temporary license. That's what actually, um, it was part of a sweeping bill that was actually in the, I think 2015 could even have been a little bit earlier in it, in it, and it was designed not just for dentistry, but it, it, it covers all healthcare, um, licenses. So from chiropractors to nurses, to docs, and they designed it for people to be able to come in

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_02] and, uh, uh, you know, work somewhere again and, and, and then give back and hone their skills and, and all things like that. And, uh, uh, it took a little bit of time, you know, in 2017, I just knew the differentiator. Uh, so, you know, I remember when I went to MISH 20 plus years ago, um, uh, you know, there was no, you could bring, you could bring a patient to Temple university, which was cost

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_02] prohibitive and, you know, and, and everything else.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_01] I was like, wasn't, wasn't it, didn't he work on the patient and you assisted him or were you able to actually work on the patient?

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_02] I think you were able to work on it, but there was a lot of hoops and it was a lot of travel.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01] And I have a, I have a buddy who, who did it multiple times. He jumped through the hoops and, and it was a matter of, they didn't make it easy. And it's not that he, it's not that MISH, it wasn't easy. Like you, it wasn't easy to do something like this. Right. Uh, honestly, so, so Arizona wanted to do it to help. I don't, I mean, the law was probably to help people get care more than to help dentists get training or doctors.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And he was not written for dentistry. Dentistry was just one of the faculties, you know, And we had, uh, so in 2017, um, we, uh, in 2017, I was, uh, doing all the clinical training for dentures and implants. And I just knew like, man, if we don't get, if we don't get these docs, some hands on like live patient experience, like they're not going to be, they're not going to implement. And, and that's what it is. Exactly.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02] Quiet dentistry. Yep. So, uh, uh, I, I knew another guy through another guy that, uh, there, his nephew had a, uh, clinic at Guadalajara, Mexico. Yep. Yep. Uh, so we took, uh, I don't know. We went down there eight, 10 times in, uh, 17. And then the early, well, late 16 into 17. And then, um, a buddy of mine named Jim Smeros, uh, uh, gave me a holler and he goes, Hey man, like,

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_02] I think we can, I think there's a place in Arizona that is doing this. And I was like, really? And, uh, so it was called the brighter way. And there was a problem. Yep. Yep. Yep. So we moved our operation to the U S. Uh, and there's, I'll tell you, there's some good in the bad. Like there's, when you go out of, out of country to, uh, train, there are clinics that don't really care about the restorative aspect.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01] You know, you know, the, you know, we've talked about this, the, you know, the human type and all, you know, um, and the place informed consent, informed consent on people who are there for quote unquote free dentistry that don't speak the same language as the doctor. Um, that's shameful. I'll say that that is shameful. That's not right. That's not right. Yeah.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, but the place we went to in Guadalajara, they had an in-house laboratory and you know, most, I mean, I would say 99.8%

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_01] They were getting, they were getting restored. Yeah.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. But they would just get an overdenture. You know what I mean? That's like the implants came for free. The patients were coming and then probably paying something for the denture. And they had, they had a staff of three or four, uh, uh, lab techs that just made stuff. So, and I enjoyed going down there. Um, just, you know, the ability to not have to do that travel was, uh, you know, kind of nice. So we went to the brighter way and, uh, the brighter way offered, you know, had plenty of patients and so forth.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_02] Just the downside to the brighter way was, uh, this is a non, this is a 501 C three nonprofit as well. But it's designed to take care of the homeless and the indigent population that lived out down Phoenix. And one of the problems with this population is they may or may not speak our language, uh, but there's a lot of mental illness and there's, they're, they're completely unhealthy.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_02] And even though they have metal medical pharmacy there, like, God, like I would bet a fourth to a third of the patients we would have selected for the course would end up like what, by the time we did it, like, Hey, their blood pressure is too high. Like we can't, we can't do this. And they, and you know what else they didn't, you know, the, the patients also weren't able to, uh, they didn't come back in for their follow-ups.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_02] They got lost, three chair, like some aspects, the brighter way in, uh, uh, Phoenix was worse than, uh, Guadalajara.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, it's in some, in, in, in, in the follow up on that population was going to be a nightmare. Medical, medical contraindications were everywhere. I'm thinking to myself, I mean, I got patients who come in every six months and we're the ones who tell them they've got high blood pressure. We got, I mean, we got people who are, who are healthy with, with, you know, with 401ks and families and they, they still don't. So the bottom line is like, I can only imagine what that population was like. And, and everyone smoked too. I'm sure.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_03] That's the, I mean, so like, so like you had a son, exactly.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_01] You had a list of contraindications that made it. And so those aren't the patients you, you know, I, I get it. The other thing is, is those patients would probably less likely to be restored because they just wouldn't come back or they'd be, you know, like that, that's a tough, that's tough. That's really tough.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_02] Like, Hey, listen, uh, uh, I think we can do this better and not that I could do it better, but I think, you know, we as a, as a faculty and, and they have to do better. So we jumped through the hoops, you know, it's not an easy project to become a 501 C3. And, uh, uh, we found the clinic and we, you know, literally I, uh, you know, I scraped it all, you know, that at that time there were five, uh, I was one of the five, uh, members of the board of directors for it.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_02] And we all like, we all throwed some money in and we bought some chairs and computers and, uh, we went at it and, uh, uh, you know, a little bit as the rest of it is history, but in Tempe, you know, man, like we, we saw retirees, we saw college kids. We saw, which not as much for implants, but you know, we would, so, um, but a lot of what I would just call your, your blue, your blue collar worker, uh, bus drivers. Yeah.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_02] There was a sheet, there's a huge UPS, uh, uh, distribution center five blocks away. I think everybody, I think everyone that was missing a tooth at UPS, we put, uh, uh, you know, we, we fixed them up, you know, and, and, and so, and these people, you know, to your, to what you said earlier, I was like, you know, these people have four one K's and some of them, you know, had a, you know, had insurance and like, like, like they were normal people.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_02] But you think about like, what about is thinking you had a person in your practice that needed an implant, not even grafting or anything like what would it cost them to go have the implant down and have you put a crown on top of it?

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_01] It's going to be, oh, it's me 4,500 bucks, probably at least before, before we're done, maybe more depending on what, what do I send them to?

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And what do you think the average, uh, uh, house, you know, what do you think the average wage is of the person that walks in your door?

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, we got some interest. It's interesting, right? It is interesting. We, it could, there's a range, but it's probably $70,000, maybe even a little less.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_02] I think where our clinic is, is it's, it's quite a bit less, but let's just take a school teacher who, by the way, you know, the school teacher is a, at a minimum of a four year college degree. Right. You know, uh, and most, I would say the, uh, uh, uh, rookie school teacher, a newbie. I'm not sure they would make 45,000. Yeah. That's around. That's probably about right.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_02] You know, so even if they made 50, you think about this over $4,500 to replace a tooth. You're asking someone to spend one 10th of their pre-tax dollars.

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_02] Fix one tooth. And the answer is no, thanks. I can't afford that. And so it's those people that we see on a daily basis. And you know, what makes it nice is we now got a two and a half full-time hygienists. Uh, you know, that, that we see these patients that, you know, in recare, these patients come back for their follow-up appointments. Like they're, they're, they're so much healthier. It doesn't mean that we don't run into blood pressures and things.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_02] Sure. Sure. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you know, so that the clientele that we're seeing is, uh, and that, and it's not because they're more worthy there. They're there. It, it's better for the educational environments.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01] Sure. It is. Sure. It is. And they're more committed to the, they're more committed to the process. Yeah. Like, like you're not worried that this person's going to get lost in the shuffle or, you know, or they're transient or whatever. I mean, these are people that are committed to the procedure. And I think if I remember correctly, when I was talking to Vorholz about it, you guys screened pretty hard to make sure that they were there for the long haul. I mean, that was part of the deal.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_02] We, we really do. Like we've, uh, we spend, uh, and it's kind of interesting. There's a few people out there that are kind of naysayers. They're like, oh, you got the, you know, you're making money and, you know, hiding behind this nonprofit. And I was like, well, listen, like you've got it. You 100% of a for-profit, uh, educational company, which is the pathway, which employs a lot of people and, uh, uh, and so forth.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_02] But the clinic itself, you know, what most people don't realize is a good chunk of the tuition dollars that you pay for the pathway, go to the renting the space from new, from the nonprofit and providing money to make sure that the, that the lights stay on the doctor stay, uh, uh, you know, everybody has a paycheck and it makes sure that these patients gets their, get their final restorations too.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01] So it's, uh, uh, it's, it's a really a win-win. Like there's no, there's no loser in this, you know, because it is, it is. And it's the right way to do it. The question is why, how did Arizona come up with this? No offense. I can't, I've, we talked about this before. I get hung up on the fact that why in the world does Arizona have this special, uh, you know, why can't Michigan do such a thing? Why? It just, it's a bizarre, it's in a spectacular way, but it's part of the reason you're in Arizona right now. I mean, because Arizona makes it probably

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_02] the, the, the, the easiest, the, the least amount of hoops to jump through, but I'll tell you that, um, every month, you know, we have, and this is what sucks too, because, uh, it could be so bogus, but if, uh, in the process of applying for this, uh, temporary license, if, if you've got an active, uh, board complaint against you, you won't get this temporary license. Okay. So it's, and if you've been,

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_02] if you've been, if you've been dinked by the state, they'll, they, they literally review what it was and decide whether you, uh, could come here or not. So it's, um, so in some, if you have a, if you've, if you've got a clean record, yes, it's at least a matter of loops to jump through. Uh, it's become a little more difficult over the years too, because those, uh, those docs that have licenses in more than one state, you'd, now you have to get all those states as dental, uh, boards to send the Arizona

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_02] on a board a letter that says that they have no problems. And like, yeah, it, it's really, um, but I don't complain like it, you know, their duty is to keep the public safe and so forth. So, uh, uh, but yeah, so there are some other states out there that have different forms of it. They're, they're, have a little more restrictions, a little, maybe a little tougher, uh, uh, but you know, Alabama allows it, uh, and, uh, so does, uh, Carolina.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_02] And then there's got a couple of handful of states that have some interesting ways to get around it.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01] That, uh, uh, it's, it's funny because I was teasing you before we started recording that essentially your new place, which you, didn't you say something like 40,000 square feet or something like that? You're essentially like a dental school for dentists over there, basically. Like it's the dental school that we all probably needed back in, you know, back when we were in, in dental school.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I think that, I think the answer is, I think there are actually probably dental schools that have less square footage, you know, that we do. And I think that there's a lot of BS that we cut out, right. You know, like, uh, you know, one of the things there should be, to be honest. Yeah.

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_02] One of the things we've done from the beginning is we're now up to, you know, I think it's just short of, uh, 41 hour modules that you got to complete before you show up for the didactic portion, before you show up for the, the live surgical component. And you'll go on to the days of, I remember when I took Carl Misch's course of Detroit, you know, I could fly there seven times. Yep. Yep.

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[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_02] It was the only way that we could, you know, even back then the internet was really hardly existed. So, uh, I remember when I was, uh, going out there, like I, I had to call United to get my, to make my reservations. Cause it really wasn't like the internet really wasn't a thing. Kind of dating myself now, but, uh, yeah, I mean, we graduated in the greatest, uh, dental year of all time.

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_01] It's true. It's true. 1997 was pretty much, it's like a fine wine. It ages like a fine wine.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_02] You know, it is the ultimate vintage wine. It is. It's the grand reserve of, uh, all.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01] It was, I will say it was a good year for podcasters. Apparently that seems to be the thing. I don't know. I think I will say Costas graduated after us, I think, but yeah, he's just a punk.

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_02] But, you know, um, it wasn't, it was a lot and to go and like listen to three days, seven times and, you know, and learn about pharmacology and physiology. Like we put all that in these modules that you can consume on your own. You don't need to travel for it. And that way, when you come now, the, we just in January, we launched, uh, what, what I call the, uh, the fast track 4.0 and that is okay.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02] Very like very condensed review of the highlights of the modules. We do a ton of hands-on experience. So it's funny because in the first three days of the fast track, which is all didactic by the end, they will have placed, I think 16 to 20 implants into either a model or a pig job. That's a lot.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_02] Right. And I was like, well, you know, do you need that much? Well, it's not just about like the art of drilling a hole on a piece of bone. Like you don't need any of this shit to learn how to drill a hole on a piece. No, that's true. That's true. Like, yeah, like it's about like having great success by choosing healthy humans, you know, and abundant bone situations and like understanding it.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_02] Because one of the things that the diet, all these, uh, implants into models and pick jaws do is it gets everyone familiar with the surgical kit that we're using. Because if you're familiar with the surgical kit, when you get into the clinic on Thursday, you're not hunting and pecking and over. You're not sweaty about what, yeah, you know, the tools. Exactly. Like, like, and you can, you know, I'm used the software. Like my goal was when you get into the clinic, like, okay, we're going to meet the patients. We're going to treat them like a human that would be sitting in our old dental chair when we get.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_02] And we're going to make the same clinical decisions in that clinic that we would back home. And if, if you learn that way, you'll go home and you'll operate in a, in a, in a, in a, in a safer environment and you'll have a, you'll have better success. Cause you know, I don't know. There's no real, there's no real, um, we don't keep track of the average of the, like how many implants, uh, our, uh, patients, uh, uh, get.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_02] And, you know, I would tell you that, you know, we've had patients, we've had docs that come and they, they did as little as four or five implants, which is like most programs. That's more than they would ever get to do. Sure.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_02] You know, we sometimes in two days, two days, we're like, I wish they'd got more implants. But if you look back on it, it was because we may have had some implants that were treatment planned for like immediates. And in the process of it, the right clinical judgment was to graft them instead of putting implants in. And that's what we do on a daily basis is you're only going to do what you would, what clinical right, clinically right for the patient and what you would do with your own private practice.

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, and people get caught up on the number sometimes because they, you know, they, they hear about courses south of the border. They're just like, Oh my God, I, if I don't place 15 implants, like this course was just that.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. That's not true at all. Like it has nothing to do with the amount of implants. It has everything to do with you creating a, an opportunity to do, to, to provide your patient with the best clinical judgment. And that's what you learn from the mentors that come here. Like we have the best, we have some of the best implantologists, the entire world that come in and mentor.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_01] You're, you're creating, you're creating an experience that will make it feel as comfortable to do it at home as you did there, because that's the, you know, all of this is worth nothing. If you won't implement it back home, that's what it comes down to.

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. If you don't go launch, like you're, you're, you know, like I tell people like if you don't, and I, and I, and I reach out to them before the course. And so it's like, like if you don't have a patient lined up on Monday or Tuesday, when you get back from your, from, from pathway, like you're doing yourself a disservice because what we know is, as humans, we are just pattern producing machines and doing it the same way that we possibly have been for maybe even from dental school.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_02] And to change direction requires, you know, some intention. Like you got to intentionally go in there and change that. And if you go do one, when you get back, you'll realize, ah, shit, I can do that. And it'll, and you'll just launch. If you don't, I tell them to say, if you don't go home and do this in the first week or so pathway will become just another course that you took.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_00] Yep.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_02] And man, I don't like, that's not what I want because I've, it's funny too, you know, Alan, like people that go, go through the, the, the course and the, we take 20 docs at a time now, uh, the new facility. So they, there'll be some that at 20 docs, it's possible that one doesn't launch, but it's not, you know, our launch rates well into the upper nineties.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_02] Um, but it's, it's possible that people will many, I would say out of 27, seven to eight of them will go home and they will, they will cherry pick the healthy, abundant bone humans. And they will add that to their practice. So they'll do, you know, two, maybe four implants a month and they'll, and they'll, but you know, you take four a month. Time still totally worth it. It's still 50 implants a year.

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And when it was 4,500, like, you know, like, like that's still significant revenue that they get to, that they get to do. I would tell you that the next, let's just say it was eight. Let's say the next eight, uh, are going to be what I call kind of an implant focused practice. And that is they're still doing general dentistry, but like they're every potential side of the planet is getting an implant, you know, animals getting that.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_02] And then, and they might start the ones that get some experience, it might start, you know, looking at full arch, you know, things like that. That last four, uh, I, I tell them, I ruined that. And that is, they don't want to ever see a real tooth again, unless it's cold steel and sunshine. Uh, and I've got taking it out. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and I, and I always mentioned, I always mentioned this guy, like I, I ruined one guy harder than like, I think anyone else on the planet.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, Tommy graph.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_03] Mm hmm.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, and he's out of Ohio. He said, did, was he on your podcast?

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_01] I don't know. I'm not sure. I can't remember.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_02] Anyway, uh, uh, Thomas graph, uh, practices in Ohio and, uh, six months, you know, I may not have the timing, right? But like six months afterwards, he, like, he calls me. It's like, Hey, um, I think I want to take, yeah, the full arch course, which at the time was taught by, uh, Chris Barrett and Raj. And I was like, we'll come back out, man. So he comes out, he takes the, the, the, the full arch course at about three months after he takes that course, he calls me up and he goes like, Hey, I got this crazy idea. And I was like, like, what's that?

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_02] And he goes, I think I'm going to fire my hygienist and turn my office into an implant only office. And I was like, okay, well, um, like I'll do anything to help you along that way. And now I think he's opening either his second or his third implant center in nice in Ohio. And, uh, just like he found, and he's a younger doc, but he found something in implant.

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_02] He found something in dentistry and it was implants that just makes him want to get up and go to work every day.

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_02] And, you know, that's, that means a lot, you know, some people, some people it's, uh, uh, you know, I call him the frosty tooth guy. He's here in town, but, uh, shipping house, uh, this biotic, uh, stuff like that stuff makes him get up and go to work every day. Sure. And I'll tell you what, like to have a career that's satisfying and that makes you want to get up and go to work every day. Like, like, I don't care what it is in dentistry, but if you find that, man, what a, what a blessing.

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, for sure. For sure. That's interesting. So you're, so basically what, what, what I'm hearing though, you just said is that most of, most of your, so there's, there's several levels that people get into implants after the pathway. Some of them are the ones who will, who, who do a few every month. And to be perfectly honest, that's great. There's nothing wrong with it. There's people who really, who really orient more.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_01] And then there's, then there's the ones that you've racked who don't even want to work on teeth anymore, but that's like, so you've got a continuum, but that's a pretty cool continuum either way.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, like, and you know, when, when we first started, I taught most of the, uh, uh, advanced courses, you know, I mean, I'm very like, I taught our first full large course. I've always, I've always taught our, uh, uh, sinus course. And now we've got, you know, now we've got Dan Holtzclaw and the building and he's doing remote anchorage and all these things. But I tell you what, the really going forward, you know, the only course that I teach is just, you know, you can call it one-on-one, but we call it the fast track.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_02] And, uh, you know, my, you know, my desire in my career is I just want to excite people into implant dentistry. I want to, I want them to, to, to see what's possible. And then if they want to go off to what they want to go beyond. Yeah. We've got guys that, uh, and, and, and we've got guys and women that like are masters at this and they, and they'll, they'll take you to the next level. But like my job, like is to just get people excited.

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_01] That's awesome. It's not a bad place to be at all. That's fantastic.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_02] We, we actually, at the first of the year we launched, uh, what we call the pathway platform. And it's a, it's an, it's an online home. Uh, it is a subscription base, but it's not very much money. And, uh, it, it's got, you know, it's run by world. Uh, you know, so there's, there's content to plenty, you know, like the guys post and shit every single day. I, I post every time I'm in that. I post every time I'm in the actual clinic, whether I'm mentoring or whether I'm seeing one of my private patients.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_02] Cause, uh, I don't, I always want like what's going on in my world to be present. And, uh, I also, you know, I also know that like, uh, you know, implant dentistry changes all the time, especially with technology. Like it's getting to the point where I I'm struggling to keep up myself is old. Yeah. I'm in brother.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_01] It's funny that you say that because, but I mean like, it's not that you can't, but you have to make an effort to be on top of it. I get it. I totally do. You do. You got to make a conscious effort to it. It is. It is super funny to think where I am, like where I am, like I've been using a scanner for a while and I think that I'm pretty, pretty hot stuff. I'm using a scanner for a while, but like just going to the midwinter, I'm like, Oh my God. I'm like, this is like, this is like late nineties polyvinyl, you know, at this point, it's just like, there's so much more going on. You're exactly right. So the old guys have to work twice as hard.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_02] We graduated dental school dipping film or, you know, what was fancy was having a film processor. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, so, and now think about that. Like, uh, I, do you know of anyone still using film? I don't think so.

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_01] It'll be shocking if there's someone out there, but for the most part, no. And, and like, well, okay. So we got intraoral, we got, we got digital X-rays in 2008. That was before I was five years before I even moved into my new building. And I was behind the times to be honest. Like, like we, we had film up to that point. So yeah, it's like, we've seen a lot in our career. Let's just say that we've seen a lot in our career and we're still in it. That's the crazy thing. You're right. What's next? My God.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_02] You know, I look, uh, you know, I walked by the, uh, so we have, um, we have some residents. Uh, uh, we got a chief resident, St. Brian Leland. He came from Boston. Uh, I got, uh, uh, two docs from, uh, uh, LSU that had a couple of years and, uh, came up. Then we got one, uh, uh, fresh off the boat of dental school, uh, Claudio Miro. He, uh, uh, he graduated from Nova and joined us this year.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_02] And it, it's fun to see their learning curve because what we've done is we've taken all the BS of dental school out. But if you think about it, it's not all BS because like people, they get screened and then you got to clean their perio up like, you know, anything else. And then you've got to, uh, uh, do these, uh, you know, get, get through that. And it's, it's fun to watch them, but they've got a, uh, uh, uh, they got a ream down, uh, by the treatment blinding area.

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_02] And it's got one of these Ray faces where you step in front and like it, you know, like photogrammetry is the whole face and they could put the teeth in there. And, you know, I'll be honest, like, I'm not even sure I can start that machine. And, uh, I know, I know I'm like, I'm not sure that I actually want to, uh, I want.

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_01] It's funny that you say that because I feel a fair amount of shame that I'm not interested in printing and I'm not interested. I'm really not interested in this stuff and there's people that are like super into it. I'm like, I got nothing, man. I got nothing. It isn't. And, and, and I think that I could do it. I don't think I'm too stupid. Although sometimes I wonder, but, but like I, so what, what I see what they're doing is they're, I mean, it's, it's amazing. It's amazing. The technology and, and they are like fish to water with that stuff.

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_01] So there's just remember you'll eventually be old enough where, where you'll wonder what your kids are, what, you know, the technology that your kids are comfortable with. You'll wonder what in the world they're talking about. You will eventually get that old. If you're a young listener, you'll get there. Don't worry.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I like, uh, uh, yeah, I just think about, um, you know, uh, a couple of our mentors like weight killing and, uh, Josh, how, you know, like, like totally into 3d printing. They're teaching an FP one course and like, uh, and now they're a little younger than we are. I mean, they're not there. Yeah. But, but I just look at it as like what they're now teaching these docs, like in 10 years will be the, probably the standard normal thing. Yeah. It'll be normal. Just the normal thing.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_02] And I'm like, uh, you know, 10 years from now I'm open that, uh, uh, I'm open just to be sitting on, uh, the, the patio, uh, looking out over the, the, the vineyard in Napa and, uh, you know, and, uh, and hosting, you know, hosting groups like that to do a course at the winery.

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_01] Like, like that's not like my, you'll, you'll be, you'll be the guy, you'll be the, the guy that uncorks the vintage for the, for the guests that are taking a course. You'll be at, what do they, what do they call it? It's a professor emeritus. That's what you'll be. That's right. That's right. That's right. You got the, you got the, you got the credibility, but they don't make you work at that stuff anymore. You just uncork the bottles. That's, that's what I get it. So before we go, briefly, before we go, tell me a little bit about your winery. You have a, you are, you are, you're multi-state again. Tell me about your winery and how the hell did that happen?

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_02] You know what? Um, you know, I, some people don't know this, but, uh, back in, uh, 1999, a couple of years after dental school, uh, I made a trip to Napa with one of my best friends, Kurt rising. He's a, uh, a pharmacist. And we stayed up on spring mountain and, uh, at this bed and breakfast. And, uh, I just fell in love with like the, yeah, it's probably cause I grew up on a ranch and farm, right? Like, I just love like growing the grapes and taking those grapes and like turning it into

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_02] something that lasts for years and leaves this kind of like legacy. So we went back to Nebraska on my dad's ranch and commandeered five acres of his, uh, farm ground. And we put, uh, five acres of wine grapes in it. And then in 2001, we, uh, applied and became the third bonded winery in the state of Nebraska. Now. Wow. Okay. I had no idea. Now there's like 42 wineries in the state of Nebraska. Okay. Yeah. I, I, I did that long enough. I did in 05.

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_02] They, uh, of course we were pretty young at the time. They made me the, uh, president of the Nebraska grape growers association. And then in 06, uh, uh, our wine or our winemaker wanted to own the, his own place. And I was just like, Hey, like, it's kind of con, it kind of like was at the same time that I, my implant career was like really skyrocketing. It's like, I love this winery thing, but like, you know, I also had two young, you know, two young boys at home. I'm like, like, I really need to plan for their future and mine and stuff.

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_02] So I, I, I took this direction into implant dentistry. Now, if you kind of remember circle back, I sold. I sold it to him in 06, um, in 2020, there was, uh, it was 2017 and 2020 Napa Valley had two large, uh, fires. Mm-hmm.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_03] Mm-hmm.

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_02] In 2020, it was called a glass fire and it went from Santa Rosa over spring mountain into Napa Valley. And I think it burned up 5,800 homes. Wow. Yeah. And about 50 wineries. Okay. So I'm a, I'm a, you know, I, I, I've been going out to Napa a couple of times a year for probably the last 10 years. And, uh, I always say, you know, I, I don't know if you do, but like wherever I go, I usually go on Zillow and be like, what, what's shit? We're always here. Right. Exactly. Always.

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_02] You're like, and, um, so I looked out there and there was a number of these distressed or birth properties.

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_02] And I was like, you know, I've like, if anything like that opened up, like I can afford to just buy some burnt dirt, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, we were headed out there to Memorial day of 2022. And, uh, one of the properties I had starred, you know, popped up and it said, uh, uh, price, severe price reduction. It went down like $550,000 on this. And it was 17 acres, uh, in the spring mountain district of Napa Valley overlooks the town of St. Helena.

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_02] And there were seven acres of Cabernet grapes on site, but the house burnt down, the winery burnt down, the outbuildings burnt down. There's a little two bedroom cottage to survive. And, uh, I was like, you know what? Um, I'm going to do this. So, uh, myself and, uh, Christine Odland, uh, uh, we went and, uh, bought the 17 acres and, uh, now, uh, we've got the thing cleaned up. We got all the dead trees cut off. The lines are looking good. Uh, we, um, our goal.

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_02] It was to, uh, rebuild the, the winery and, uh, uh, and a house out there where sure should have been through the permit process of Napa County, which is crazy. I mean, yeah. Well, I had to California. Yeah. I'm going to, I'm going to write and I'm, I've started it. I'm writing a book on building in California. You told me about this a year ago. I remember I'm still, I'm still writing because every, every day seems like another chapter that takes me like 10 more pages.

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, but, uh, uh, so we, you know, we named it titanium winery. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, uh, so one of the things was, I was like, Hey, listen, like in 20, again, this last fall, uh, in, uh, November of 23, uh, we, we, our grapes were previously contracted to other wineries. So, uh, so in 23, the grapes were ours and, uh, we had fallen in love and, uh, with,

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_02] uh, ghost block vineyards actually had our engagement party down there and they, okay. Uh, they said that it was capable, you know, like they'd like, Hey, we'll custom make your wine. Cause so there's 900 wineries in Napa Valley, but there's not 900 physical wine drinks. Yeah. There are these big wineries that make other people's wine and store the barrels and such. And then they get them to a bottle and then they put them in warehouses and they sell. So they, you know, not everybody actually has a physical place that you can go visit.

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_02] And so we, we saw, we, we, we took the grapes down there. We've made, we've got 39 brand new French oak barrels that our cabinet is sitting in. Um, and it won't be released until, uh, 2026. Okay. So it's kind of like, it's hard to wait that long because now the four crop is starting to, uh, uh, leap out and you're like, well, God, I'm going to buy more barrels. And, you know, this whole thing, like this delayed gratification. Yes.

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_02] In may, we will have some, uh, white wines that are available, the Sauvignon Blanc and the Sauvignon. But I, I, um, I told, you know, Chris and I were talking and I was like, how do we, how do we launch this? Uh, I hope we got a couple more minutes. Cause I, I think you'll like this, uh, this part of it. Um, you know, everyone should have an idea of what they want to do, uh, you know, uh, after dentistry, you know, and my after dentistry is a long ways down the road, but there is

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_02] a, there is a, there'll be a period of it. It'll become, you know, combined, you know, teaching dentistry and wine when I'm not doing a course. And, uh, uh, so we decided like, Hey, like if we're not going to have our first like real wine, the Cabernet, uh, available till 26, how do we get people to know what we're doing and tell our story and stuff? And, uh, as we started to go through, you know, like I, I had asked another buddy that had

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_02] taken, uh, Fabletics to market. And I'm just like, Hey, you got to know about marketing and shit. So he gave me some names, some big marketing companies in Chicago that take beverage, you know, food and beverage industry. Yep. And it didn't feel right. Yeah. Then I remember that, uh, Josh over at a studio eight and eight. Yeah.

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_02] And, uh, um, I, I remember him, remember he was, uh, they went to VOD multiple times.

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. They're, they're all about storytelling. Yeah.

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. You know what I, uh, uh, I'd always, um, you know, I'd always been following, uh, him because, uh, one of the, uh, things that, uh, you know, one of the things that Josh got does is he's a, he's a wine saw. Oh, you got, you got a studio 88 shirt. I'm wearing their swag. They have the best swag. Yeah. Right. So, so I was, uh, uh, I was thinking about this.

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_02] So it's like, listen, Josh is into wine. Like so much, he, like so much, he took courses and he's become this Solomon. I was like, and I, and I really love what he's done in the dental space. So I called him one day and like, Hey, like, would you have any interest in like, maybe like doing the, the, the, the marketing and the brand creation for, uh, our winery. And I think it took him a microsecond to say yes.

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_01] Uh, he was born for this. Yeah.

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_02] He was born for it, man. And like, uh, I don't know if you've been on, uh, we, he just released a video of his experience being out of the vineyard and doing some contact creation. And it's, it's just out of this world. It's actually in this world. We should do a podcast with him. That'd be really cool. I mean, like, like, I would love to do that with him. And one of the things in the design of, we're going to, we're going to build a cave and have a structure on top because, you know, I don't need a fire burning. Another thing down.

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Like, so, you know, so the expensive wine and stuff's all the, it will be, but yeah, we do have a, we do have a building outside of the cave. That's a tasting room and patio and stuff. But my goal is like, you know, I, I even talked to Costas the other day and I was like, Hey, I was telling you about it. He's like, I'd love to do a mastermind retreat there. Yeah. And. Oh, interesting. And then, and then these, and then these Dell companies are like, Hey, like, we'd love to do our like national sales meeting there and things like that.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_02] I was like, you know what? Like, like we're going to create this winery and we're going to, we're going to find it. We're going to, we're going to create something that those in the dentistry industry that know will want to come out and we'll cater to that. Like unreasonable hospitality. And I, because we know what they're going through, right? Like, I'll only charge them $5 a gallon for coffee, not six. Right.

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_01] Oh my gosh. It's so funny. That's hilarious.

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_02] Anyway, if they're out about titanium, uh, titanium, we'll put it in the show notes.

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_01] That's awesome. I feel like we definitely have to put together a round table where we could talk about that. That's kind of cool. That's an interesting idea.

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_02] And honestly, it's a whole podcast itself on what, what I want to do out there.

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool. So that's awesome. Like, I love the idea that it's, it's sort of bringing all the worlds together. It's kind of cool.

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Because this world, Alan, this world is, is made of abundance. It's not a competition. You know? And those that are, those that are out there cutting others down and this to either sell their dentistry or sell their courses or whatever, man, like, like, like you should go take all the damn courses.

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_03] Mm-hmm.

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_02] You know, like you just can't take mine, like, oh, take them all. But like, like you'll, you'll feel at home when you take ours. And then that's the, when we build the winery, like, like you'll be part of the family.

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. No, that's awesome. That's so good.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_01] All right, Justin, we've been going for a while. I'm going to, I, well, what we'll do is we'll put together, we'll put together a round table with Josh and maybe some others talking about, uh, talking about this at some point, but this was great. It's really nice to catch up with you. It's been too long. It's been amazing. We should just mention in, in passing, putting meat on the bone or anything, but maybe mention what our thoughts are.

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_02] Alan, what, what would you think about voices of dentistry 2025?

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_01] Boy, I don't know. I've been thinking about it. I think, I think not having one in 24 might make 2025 feel even more important. I don't know. Just thinking.

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know about you, but like the, the, the core group of, of, uh, uh, VOD, like they're Jones and for it. Matter of fact, they're like, they're sad that it, that, that it, I hear, I hear that a lot. I hear that. I did too. Like I do. And I was like, you know, I got this big building and it would be limited seating. Probably. I don't know how many of it, like there was there. It can't grow.

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_01] Like it can't be, it can't be as big as it is. It won't be our biggest one.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_02] It won't be as big as our biggest one, but what I can tell you is, man, like you will have access to podcasters. We're going to have some credit. We're going to have some incredible food and you don't have to deal with all the BS that a hotel has to offer. Like we don't, we don't have to continually raise the ticket price every year because the price of copy goes from $40 a gallon to $60 a gallon. Yeah.

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_01] We'll only charge you like $6.50 for that hard boiled egg. It will not be $7. I mean, that's like one of the, one of the things that made me the most crazy about it was how badly they gouged us. You remember when the hotel wanted to hold us to, to, uh, doing voice of dentistry during 2020 when, when, uh, or 2021 when no one was allowed to have meetings, but they were going to stick it to, cause we'd signed a contract. They were going to stick it to us. All this stupid stuff. It's like the worst part about that meeting was at the actual dealing with all the vendors and all the BS with that.

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_01] And that's what basically what Moody is saying is we can have a meeting where we don't have to do that. They have a completely different.

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_02] And you know what, Alan, you know what else? Like stay in the hotel that you want. Like if you've got Marriott points or Hilton points or whatever, like stay, stay where, stay wherever you want. Also there's a fricking million hotels around there. So it's like, you know, what else is, uh, there's a lot of around there is I guarantee you that the, the voice, the dentistry regulars, they're going to go get some Airbnb parties and Mike.

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_00] Yep. Yep.

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_02] And we will do, uh, we'll do a great event Friday night. Uh, I've got some ideas. Not going to let that out, but, uh, uh, and it will truly be for those that want to be there. Yeah.

[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_01] And, uh, well, so anyone's wondering too, uh, Mark Costas and Jason Lipscomb are on board with this as well.

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_02] So they signed all the dotted line.

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_01] They, they, they said they'd do it. They said they'd do it. So it's, this is, this is likely a thing. It's pretty exciting.

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I think it's pretty much a done deal. Uh, uh, and if they were to keep a weekend open, they would want to keep in January 24, 25.

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, I'm just saying it just, you might want to pencil that in.

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_02] Just, I want to pencil that in and, uh, keep an ear out for, uh, the four of us on social media is like, uh, when it's timed, I will tell you when it's time to register. You won't want to wait on it because don't wait. We cannot create seats years, years after years.

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_01] It was always, we try and get people to sign up early and everyone signed up late. Guess what? If you sign up late, you won't have a spot. You won't have a seat. And guess what? You won't be able to come and leech off people who've signed up either because there's literally limited seating. Literally. That's what's going to happen. So it's, it's going to be when, when it happens, you better sign up quick or you can just hear about it on social media and not be there. Yeah. So yeah. And have the worst case of phone call in your life. Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, these are going to be, this is going to be a hot ticket coming up next January. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. This was awesome. I'm glad we did it. Thank you for having me on the show.

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_01] I really appreciate it. You bet. You bet. We'll do it again soon. All right. Talk to you later.

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_02] Bye-bye.