Very Dental: Dr. Katie To on Biological Dentistry and Finding the Root Cause

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[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_00] This is a production of the Very Dental Podcast Network. This is the Very Dental Podcast.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_01] Welcome to the Very Dental Podcast, where you'll find entertaining and relevant conversations with visionaries, clinicians, and your friends in the dental space. Now, here's your host, Dr. Alan Mead. Very Dental people, welcome to another episode of the Very Dental Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Alan Mead, coming to you again. It's the last day of August that I'm recording this on, and I'm still able to record on my porch. My son has made sure that I will have no cats bothering me while I'm recording.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_01] And you can see that my guest has a studio, a little bit more professional-looking deal going on here. I'm talking with Dr. Katie Toe. Katie, welcome to the show.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_04] Thank you, Alan. It's my huge honor, and I know you are so flexible with practicing dentist schedule, emergency on Monday, and so I'm very happy to be here.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_01] No, it's really cool. We finally got together with this. So Katie practices – I'm sorry. Katie practices in Katy. Holy cow, I just realized that. In Katy, Texas. We were talking before we started recording. It's the Houston area, but her practice is in Katy. She is originally from – we have this connection. She's originally from Minneapolis, and that's where I went to dental school. I graduated from the University of Minnesota in 1997. And so you grew up in Minneapolis. Tell me a little bit about that.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_04] So my uncle actually migrated from Vietnam to Minneapolis about 1975, right after the Vietnam War. And then that's how my parents followed the footsteps, and we would not really expect that much snow. So coming from a tropical country, and we started seeing snow in October, and we're like –

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, yeah.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_04] For six months. Maybe seven months sometimes.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_01] So a bunch of my classmates at the University of Minnesota were actually – were born in Vietnam. And so they'd come – and I always laughed about that a little bit. I'm like, you know, that's a real – that's a real culture shock to come – I mean, I don't think Vietnam probably sees a lot of snow. I'm guessing.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_04] Never. Mm-mm. I've never ever seen snow.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01] And I mean, okay, so I live in Michigan. I live in mid-lower peninsula of Michigan. We get plenty of snow. But when I went to Minnesota for dental school, I'd never seen snow like that. I mean, the one thing you can say about Minnesota versus Michigan in the winter is Minnesota gets more sun. It's very cold, and there's a ton of snow, but at least it's a little sunnier. It's very cloudy here in the winter. That's the only – we usually get less snow here. But I can only imagine someone who came from Vietnam going to Minnesota.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01] But yet there's a huge population of people who've emigrated from Vietnam.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_04] That's right.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_01] So that was you.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_04] Yes. But as soon as I graduate from high school, I'm out of here. Bye. I'm going to go as far south as possible. That's Texas. Just straight shot I-35.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. So you left Minneapolis. You ended up in San Antonio. Is that right?

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_04] First, Dallas area, which is Arlington, UT Arlington. Okay. And then after that, I went to dental school in San Antonio.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. Okay. That's what it was. Okay. And you stayed in Texas. So somehow you didn't come back north for the winters, I see. I mean, no one can really blame that. I will say that when people end up in Texas, they generally don't leave Texas. I know this a little bit because I grew up in Midland, Michigan, which is the world headquarters of Dow Chemical. And Dow Chemical has like an outpost in Lake Jackson, Texas.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_04] They do. Yeah.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01] And anyone that was brought up from Lake Jackson to Midland, like when I was in high school, they were mad. They were not glad to be here. And they made their way back down there as fast as they could. I think you get used to the weather is what happens. So anyhow. That's right. You're in beautiful Katy, Texas.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_03] Yes.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_01] So tell me a little bit about you. You went to dental school down there. Tell me a little bit about you and your journey into the way that you practice now.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_04] Yes. So I graduate in 2010 from San Antonio. Then I also met my husband. He's my classmate in dental school. Okay. And you know, life always happens for you and not to you. So I was dead set on joining pediatric residency, pedo residency. Interesting. And he's from day one of dental school knowing that he's going to be, he's going to be an orthodontist. Okay.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_04] So he matched to University of Oklahoma, but unfortunately they did not have a pedo program there. So our plan is like, he's going to finish his ortho residency and then I'm going to work. And when he finished his residency, then I'm going to pedo residency. And you know, I'm so glad that three years he's in ortho residency, I realized that I did not like the parents.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_04] And I really love my cosmetic dentistry size of the practice. And so I'm very grateful for that experience because a lot of us chose our specialty in dental school with our real life experience. And we thought we knew exactly what we want. However, to many of us, real life experience really gave you perspective of not just the clinical dentistry, but also the type of practice you want to run.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_02] Yep.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_04] Medicaid, insurance, fee for service, wellness, all of this thing. And so while we're in Oklahoma, we actually love Oklahoma and people there.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. But then we got hit with the F5 tornado in 2013.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_01] I remember that. Yeah.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_04] And yes, President Obama visited more Oklahoma because we were right there. And I had to pull people out of the house. Wow. And I still get goosebumps talking about it today because I actually had traumatized thinking that I would never see my husband again. We were separated, working different offices. And that one, we said, we need to get out of here. And he from Houston. Yeah. So obviously my parents actually end up while we, while we working and learning and studying

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_04] in Oklahoma decided when they're going to move from Minneapolis to Houston. There's a huge Vietnamese community here in Houston. I think the second largest in the country beside California. And so, so when we have two set of parents are here, we're going to have a family and having grandparents around is like a huge plus. And Houston is like the next right move for us. And so, yes, that's how we end up in Houston. And then, you know, I knew from day one, I want to own my practice because I know that I

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_04] want to practice a certain way. I took a lot of CE right after dental school, realized that dental school gave us a license to practice and teach us a lot of single tooth dentistry. But when you, when you see patient with comprehensive dentistry, you're like, oh, I'm actually not equipped during these cases. I need to take more CE. And so continuing education was a big part of my, I would say my career still, I'm still taking a lot of CE, but today's CE for me is more medical CE than dental CE.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, sure. And I can get into that in a little bit. So you've got a husband, you've got a husband that's training to be, and then he is an orthodontist now, is that correct? Yes.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_04] Yes. He practicing.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_01] Man, that's.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_01] That's interesting. That's interesting because I mean, as you know, a lot of comprehensive dentistry, once you start taking the CE, you realize that orthodontics is really involved in a lot of this stuff. Oh yeah. Every case. Every case you look at, you're like, okay, we could get some benefit from orthodontics. And I'm going to tell you. Yeah. I mean, how much better of a referral setup can you have than your husband? I mean, you get to the front of the line when you're married to the orthodontist. That's what I'm saying. So that's kind of amazing.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01] So have you found that to be helpful that he's an orthodontist?

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_04] Well, it's helpful for our patient, but not so much for our marriage. I'm so glad you hold that water in.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I can see that. I can absolutely see that. That's hilarious. That's a good line. So, okay. So you have gone into, you took, what kind of CE did you take? Who'd you go to and what was your, what'd you focus on?

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. So definitely comprehensive interdisciplinary because I know that I have the orthodontist in-house, right? Or I go home with the orthodontist and have to talk about a lot of cases. And so-

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_01] Do you guys practice in the same building?

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_04] No.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_01] Do you practice in the same building? Okay. Yeah.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_04] We have our own practices because we have very different impersonality and different in management style.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. There you go. So- I can live with that. That's, that's, I mean, it's amazing. For the folks that do practice together, I know a few, I give them credit. I don't know that it probably wouldn't work for me either.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. And I don't know how they're going to separate the conversation at home beside what's going on at home and what's going on in the practice.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_01] Seriously. It's all blending together. The kids are probably warped. Yeah. The kids are probably warped on the profession of dentistry. Okay. So you were focusing on interdisciplinary care, kind of comprehensive care. You had an orthodontist in your back pocket if you needed him. Okay. So tell me about your practice. Did you start up? Did you buy a practice? Or do you work with someone else?

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_04] No. So I know from day one that I want some cash flow because I was working out in Oklahoma and I really like that you can go in and actually start seeing the patients right away. And Houston market at that time was really tough for startup. Okay. And so I was working with a field broker in Houston and they told me that there's a prosthodontist that's really picky, but he has a very nice practice because he's only working in that location two days a week.

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_04] So there's a lot of potential for growth. Okay. And so I came in, visit the practice. And you know how when you walk into a place and you're like, this is mine? You have that.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_04] That intuition, that sixth sense of that gut feeling. And I felt like that when I walked into that practice at 7 p.m. at night where all his employees already went home and I said, I really like this practice. And that's in Katy, Texas.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02] So there it is.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_01] Okay.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_04] So we ended up bought his practice. He was supposed to stay for three months, but then after he worked with me for a week, he's like, you got it, kid. I'm out of here. You know what you're doing with the dentistry. And so taking over a prosthodontist practice, the only plan he was in contract with is Premier Delta.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_02] Okay.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_04] So I got a really good start. However, I realized that, oh my God, people say yes to his treatment plan, but they don't say yes to my treatment plan, even though I also treatment plan comprehensive. And at first I thought it must be my age. It must be, you know, I don't know how to present treatment plan. And so I'm taking more CE, right? I'm trying to get increasing my clinical skill. They didn't realize that it is actually how you really present it, connect with the patient emotionally.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_04] So when I met Christian Coachman in Houston 2017, I started implementing Digital Smile Design DSD and it changed my practice. I got patients to cry on their test drive. They say yes to all the big treatment plan, including orthodontic treatment, which many of them walk in and say, I don't want ortho. Or I just got off in the line. Yes. Because they see what their, the end look like because you show the test drive.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_04] Now they say yes because they know exactly what it takes, reverse engineering back to get there. So I got a really successful cosmetic comprehensive practice, building that practice from two days a week to four days, five days a week, breaking seven figure. I'm like, life is amazing. Then, you know, in that, in that really you thinking you ride the wave and then you got really sick. At first it's just like, oh, maybe I'm working too hard. Maybe I'm, you know, growing a practice, have a young kid.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_04] I had my, my first son at 2016. So it's about a year in. So even a few months after I bought the practice, I found out I got pregnant. But you know what? You're just taking 10 days off post maternity, go back to work. And you're just pushing it. And then everyone telling me, it just must be you burn out, you're tired, you're working too much. But all the symptoms didn't add up. And it got worse and worse. At one point my husband said, I think you're dying.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_04] Because the doctor just keep prescribing medications, especially steroids. And I was not getting better. And then actually a patient saw me and he said, you need to see different doctor. You need to see functional doctor. I'm like, what is a function? And this is back in 2018 where functional medicines is not as popular today.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, it's not as well known. Sure.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_04] No, it's not well known and very expensive. Very expensive because they see very little amount of patient. They're not in network. Everything paid cash. I remember my new patient exam with all the testing was $6,000.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_02] Wow.

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_04] Back in 2018. But I was so desperate. Okay. I was like, I have nothing to lose. I could not wake up. I could not sleep because all of the rashes I have over my body. And so I came in and it's a two-hour exam with one-hour nutritional consultation. And never had an exam like that. But as soon as she saw that I'm a dentist, she's like, well, I need to test for your heavy metals. And we're like, heavy metals? Like, I don't have metals in my mouth. I never have anything exposed to metal. Sure.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_04] And so the test came back. I had over 10 times the limit on lead and five times the limit on mercury for a normal person. Yeah.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_02] Sure.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_04] And so they did genetic testing. They do everything and realized that my body could not detox. Because my husband actually had amalgam filling in his mouth. And his test was fine. Mine was just elevated because I've been compounding and hoarding these chemicals and these toxins in my system. Because of my genetic, it's not just what's been exposed to. And then they gave me visit.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_01] I'm curious. Did they think that it was probably exposure because you're a dentist as well? Was that a factor or less so?

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, they test this very detailed. They test this methylmercury or is organic mercury. Is it from seafood? Yeah. Is it from dental material? And so you know exactly it's from dental.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. I mean, I'm not surprised when you think about all the exposure that we have to mercury, whether you're placing or even if you're just removing. Yeah, for sure. Just removing. Keep going.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_04] Yep. Okay. So that's when they sit me down. And this is the funny part because I know a lot of people relate to this. My husband's like, I think you had a quack doctor. Let's just go to see another one. And so we went to second functional that was very well known in town. The diagnosis is the same. Heavy metal toxicity. Then we went to the third one. We're like, you know what? Let's see the third one, what he said. He also said the same thing. And I said, okay, you know what? It's so crazy.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_04] If they told me I have cancer, I'm probably like, okay, I think I have cancer. But when they told you that you have heavy metal toxicity, you're just thinking that they're crazy. And so when I accepted that treatment diagnosis, they said, okay, you cannot practice dentistry anymore. Your body cannot take any more mercury, any more heavy metal. And so I said, seriously? Like, this is not a joke. I just built my practice. I bought my practice in 2015. The practice was going really well.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_04] I'm three years in making seven figures collections. And this is happening. And so that's when I said, is there any other way? And all of them said, well, yeah, you can practice in a way that you can remove it without breathing it in. It's called safe mercury protection. And so I look into that. And I was like, oh, my God, they've been doing this for 40 years. What are we doing? We're not teaching it in dental school. We're not even mentioning it because we don't do genetic testing in dental school.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_04] So we don't know which dental student can tolerate it or not.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01] Interesting.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_04] And so that's when I shipped my practice, you know, 180 because I either had to quit or I'm going to have to make this work. But because my team saw me sick for so long, when I said I have to do this for my health, they're all on board.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_04] Because otherwise we'll have a new boss.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_01] That's wild. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01] I get it. I get it. There's a lot there. There's a lot there. I want to just go back a little bit. First off, you as a highly trained but a general dentist taking over a prosthodontist practice. That's wild. I would say that's uncommon. And that's pretty cool. It's a testament to you and your skill set. That's very interesting to me.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_01] But then secondly, you realizing that, I mean, on some level, he had patients that were accepting treatment plans that you found that patients were not accepting as much. And you found the way to get patients to accept treatment plans was with Dr. Coachman's program. Tell me a little bit more about that.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_04] Yes. So digital small design, the concept is you're going to start with, of course, facial planning. Yeah. Where the face, where the incisor is, where the eye level. So they don't want to introduce the concept of digital face both. And now everyone is very familiar with it. But back in the day, it was controversial because I bought a prosthodontist practice, you know what, in his drawer? Koi Facebook.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. In the lab.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_04] He have a huge lab in the practice. The practice is 2,500 square feet, only five up because the lab is bigger than the lab. Sure.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_01] And that's a prosthodontist thing for sure. Yeah.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_04] And he have all the articulators. And he actually was part of the David Hornbrook teaching group. So much material for lab is in there. And so when I saw that Dr. Coachman said, you start with the photos, you start with the smile, you start with the incisal edge. And then you build the smile and then a function based on that. And you'll be able to show the patient the end before they even say yes to any of the crowns and the crown lengthening and the ortho.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_04] And so I basically, even though I know the treatment plan for that patient is 28 unit, I don't say a word. I just say, let me design it. And it took the photos. And we had Trio scan in 2017. So we scanned the patient. We designed. Then that's the first visit. The second visit, we put the test drive, which is the design printed. We do putty. And then we put it on with the Luxus hem. And the patient want to go home with that because they thought it's like, wow, this is magic.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_04] And so that's how we selling these complex cases and patient accepting ortho treatment and surgery and the implant.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_01] The trial smile was, and I mean, you're hearing people now doing printed trial smiles. But you're saying that one of the reasons what got you from patients being less likely to accept, more likely to accept is the trial smile that you generated.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, because we don't say clinical things to them. We just basically getting the emotional about it. They see it with their owner. They bring their friends, their family, whoever they want to be there on that appointment. That's the second appointment. And then it changed. Like they basically say, whatever it takes, I want that.

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[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, exactly. So you're like, basically, you're showing the patient what they could have without them having to have invested in it. And so, in other words, what you've done is you've made them want it. And once they actually want it, it's a lot harder for them to say no. They're like, no, no, no, I can see what I could have. I want this. That's a huge thing. It's a huge thing I think people need to realize because when, I mean, and the other thing is this is comprehensive stuff. It's hard to do a trial smile when you're doing a single round and a couple fillings on a quadrion.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_01] This is sort of big case stuff. But there's a lot of the adult population that would benefit from that. I find it interesting that that's what it took for you to get the case acceptance that this prosthodontist was having. Yeah. So he was confident.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_04] So he was confident, right? He'd been practiced for a long time. He was known doing these cases. So patient came to him, already won this kind of dentistry.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_02] Yes.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_04] But when you're presenting it and you're out of school for, you know, five years, you definitely don't have that, you know, history and that reputation yet.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_02] Yep.

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_04] And so this is helping you to giving the patient what they want, but deliver what they need.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. What's cool about it? I mean, I've always said specialists sort of have it over us a little bit because if the patient's in their office, they've already kind of realized that they need some pretty serious treatment. Yep. And you took over a specialist's office. That's a, that's a, so that's a big step. That's very impressive that you came to that. I kind of, I kind of love hearing. I'm sure there's a lot of people are like, okay, I'd like to know how she did that. And it sounds like you use Dr. Coachman's program to kind of get you there. Is that right? Yeah. So we would, you would recommend. Yeah.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_04] We design everyone that walk in the door. So even they have a crown 18 pop out. Why? Well, the occlusion is not right. The vertical is not right. You still have to basically treatment plan and design that case so you can do more comprehensive dentistry and not just single tooth dentistry.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. What's interesting is, is that patient, I will say, I think doing digital, it sounds like you've always been done a lot of this design digitally. That makes it a little bit easier on some level. There's, there's, um, I, I don't know if I can quite say this, but digitally you can turn things around a little more quickly sometimes with digital. And it sounds like you did a lot of it in house as well. You didn't necessarily have, you weren't necessarily sending this out to a lab or anything like that.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_04] I'm glad you bring that up. No, I'm, I'm a master of delegation. I have a DDS and then an MD. Stand for master of delegation. So when I.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_01] No, great. That's fantastic.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_04] So when I met Christian, I said, I'm not going to spend hours sitting here designing it. So is that anything that you can spit this process up? And he said, okay, we can have people in Madrid can design your case for a fee. Yeah. I'm like, absolutely. So we would send the photos and the STL and then we will get the design back. Yeah. And all we do is just print the model and then make the putty and we can do our test drive.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yes. That's so good. I mean, like, okay, you know, there's some dentists who, who fricking live to do the design and all the, all the, all this stuff. And then there's some like me that would not, that would not be exactly, but good on you for understanding right off the bat. I mean, it makes a ton of sense for you to have just jumped into that. I sort of love that. That's great.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_03] Thank you.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_01] So then you were basically doing the kind of dentistry you wanted to do and with, with the systems in place to do it. I love that. I love that. That's very, that's very cool.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_04] Thank you.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01] So you, and that's what kind of got you where you're going and then you got sick. Tell me about what, what did sick look like on you? Oh my gosh. Like when you were sick, what, what were, what kind of symptoms? Because I, I'm, I suspect there's, there's listeners that, that might, might relate to this a little bit. So tell me what it was like when you were sick.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, absolutely. First of all, I have random rashes, you know, on my skin and you definitely is antihistamine, right? It's a, it's a histamine symptom, but then you take antihistamine and you're like, oh, it goes away.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_04] I must be eating something. And then you would go to your doctor and do skin allergy tests or allergy tests. Blood tests. But then it's not conclusive because thing that was showing up on your test would be the thing that you've been eating your whole life. And so a lot of confusion. So number two is I had a lot of joy, ache and pain, even though I work out and then eat clean. And then I had terrible brain fog. And this is two people that first met me probably don't notice, but for people like my husband,

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_04] or my parents and my team, they were like, you can't even finish your sentences. This is weird because I used to be able to remember, even like now my, my health is significantly improved. I can remember details. You just mentioned me like 10 years ago. I still remember the name of the person or the location, even the date. But then my brain fog getting so bad. I could not finish my sentences. And then I'll end up with like the sleep issues. Could not go to sleep. Taking magnesium, zinc, even melatonin chronic, like could not, nothing working.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_04] And I'm like, this is so crazy. And the rash got worse at night. It's like coming out at night. And so, and the rash got in the face and you'd be like, okay, something is going on. And so my blood work come back and say, you waterline autoimmune. You're not there yet. We're just going to wait until you get there. And I'm like, what? And so a lot of these things, and the most embarrassing for me, I'm wearing black scrub right now is the dandruff. It was so bad, right?

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_04] That it just like white on my, I stopped wearing black scrub during that time.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_04] And so all of these people are like, oh, I checked that. And my mood was just like everywhere. And so the funny thing, when they start telling me about heavy metal toxicity and then they print out all the symptoms, I would check like 33 out of 60 of those. And my husband was like, okay, I'm not crazy. You are really going through something. But the symptom can be so generic. It could be like an upset GI system. Like, you know, you don't know what happened and you try to, you know, clean up and you thought it's the antibiotic you take 20 years ago.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_04] So all of these symptoms is not very like pinpoint to the heavy metal. And that's why we thought the doctor that we saw first, the first doctor we saw was a quack because we didn't realize that this is something that really common until now I'm seeing, I would say one out of, I mean, maybe five out of 10 patients I see in a week having heavy metal issues because they sent to us from neurologists who tested them.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_01] Interesting. Interesting. So what, okay. So I do want to go back. It sounds like conventional medicine left you frustrated.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_02] Oh yeah.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_01] Is that, I mean, cause I got to tell you that like, I mean, conventional medicine is frustrating. Yeah. I mean, even, even when they're doing, even when they're doing everything right, it's very frustrating on some level. And I just, I can imagine that you were, you were going to them with symptoms that they were, and it's like they, I'm always sort of bothered by conventional medicine where they like to try and treat something without a diagnosis. Like you can't. They treat the symptom, right?

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, if you have the rashes, let's give you some steroids.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Well, the problem is you can't live your life on steroids. You know, you really can't. I mean, I find steroids useful on occasion for patients in my office, but, but it's not something that I would want to fall back on as, as just the answer to the thing. And, and, but what's crazy is it's like the way that medicine is kind of set up is that they do sort of, they, they can't go in deep enough that, that they can, I don't know, they can't really, they can't really spend enough time to do those. No.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_04] The hands are tied with what the insurance dictate on the testing. Yeah. So for example, I, I now know that there's so many tests available, but because your insurance, the insurance is not going to approve those tests. Like for example, vitamin D.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_04] They don't test vitamin D on your regular panel of your annual exam, unless you are asking for it or your doctor saying why they need it. Yeah. And it's a very important test for people that dealing with fertility. How do I know that? When I got my fertility treatment, they asked me what is my D level? I might, I have no idea. Yeah. And so it's really crazy. But when you go into like a specialist to treat for fertility or you're treating for Parkinson's or Alzheimer's or cancer, and they're asking you all these numbers and you're like, how come my doctor never checked that?

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_04] And they keep telling you, you normal. Oh, you normal. You're fine. See you next year. But normal is not optimal now that we realize that. Yeah.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. That's an interesting take. And I've heard that before. So moving forward, you got a diagnosis and you challenged it, it sounds like. It took several times before you really believed it and owned it with the heavy metal toxicity. So your health was improved by treating that. Is that what I'm hearing?

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_04] No, because the heavy metal is in your soft tissues and hard tissues. So if it's in brain tissues, take 30 years to get it out. If it's in your gut, it's a bit faster. And then you also had to monitor the level to make sure you're not exposed to it.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_01] Increasing.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_04] So amazingly, the treatment for what I was going through with the rash and with the swelling, my face was swelling. I mean, if I show you the picture, you're like, oh my God, that looks terrible. But it's just about removing inflammatory factors. So no sugar. Yes. For six months, I did not touch any sugar. For six months, at least processed sugar, white sugar. Yeah. And then no dairy and also no grain.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_04] No gluten. Wow.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01] That's a tough diet. Yeah.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_04] But when you have so much inflammation and they tell you, remember my new patient exam was two hour exam plus one hour of nutritional consultation. And I have to stick to it because that's my medicine. Food is my medicine at that point. And then you start to sleep better. My skin's not getting clear. I'm start. I mean, I remember get so emotional, get out of my car. I got really the worst in my life is in June of 2018. And in December 2018, I look like different person.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_04] I don't remember. I got so emotional, get in my car and take a selfie because I was like, I never looked this good. And so I would never want to be that sick again, you know? And so once you really get a second chance, you really don't want to risk it. And so the way I'm practicing, I'm asking a lot of questions. I'm not accepting everything what everyone gave me. But I was like, why is working for this person and not working that person? Why do I not look at blood work and genetic?

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_04] Because we are doing surgery on patients. We are putting so much material that they go home with 24-7. You know, you no longer be like, oh, I was allergic to tomato during that time. Is the tomato bad or is my body not accepting it?

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_01] Interesting. Yeah. And so... So tell me what practicing looks like in your office today that's different than before you kind of went through all this.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, yes. So our new patient is two hours with no cleaning. Patient bringing their blood work. Patients also have to have a medical doctor because we're sending all our report to their medical doctor. And even their medical doctor, not functional, not integrative. That's okay. We have to make sure that they know, hey, this is what's going on in your patient mouth. This is the saliva test result. This is the inflammations hidden in their jaw after we scan the CBCT.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_04] And the radiologist gave an official report, not just the dentist looking at the teeth and the bone. And so our practice today, I look at the person as a whole person and we collaborate with their medical provider. And so that's increasing our referral significantly because the medical doctor get probably two hours of dental educations in their medical school.

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_00] If that.

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_04] They don't know the number, right? And so when you send them all this information, they're like, oh my God, I was looking for the inflammation. I didn't know where it's coming from. And now they are, start asking these questions from their patient. Did you have this done? Did you have this extracted? Did you have the root canals? Do you get it checked out? So now they're the one that be proactive and ask their patients. And then I have a functional doctor get a light and help patient open and see if they have any metals.

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_04] And they would send a patient to us for evaluation. And so working with medical doctor is very rewarding because they're the one that tell you, hey, Katie, I didn't do anything on this patient. I just dropped blood work and then look in them out and refer to you. And now they got this, you know, their fatigue is gone. They got this, you know, cognitive functions back. And you'll be like, all I did is did their scaling root planning. And you'll be like, really? So a lot of time we do amazing things for our patient because we have no feedback from

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_04] other medical professionals.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_01] You know, that's a huge, that's a huge thing. That's a huge thing. And I think that's right. I, I've run into it a lot of times where we're trying to get it, trying to get a physician, a medical referral to even call back or to talk because they're so busy doing their own thing. They're not, they, like you said, they don't really, they don't really, they don't look at the dentist as, you know, as, as part of the process when they're in. And honestly, they're swamped. Like you said, most of them are dealing with, with a million medicines. They have very little time with the patient. So part of it's being able to take the time.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_01] It sounds like I am interested because clearly there are patients that have heard of what you do and they, and they seek you out. So at this point I'm wondering what kind of marketing is your practice doing or is it mostly referral based or what people, people know about?

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. So there's a huge growing pain. So I was the only dentist in a practice. And when I start practicing this way, because of my selfish reason, I was sick. I had to practice this way, but then stop patients start talking to each other and say, Oh, she's practicing this way. So I had at one point five month wait list just by myself just to get into my practice. And then it's worse after COVID because after COVID people are like, okay, there's way more

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_04] connection to the body than what we were told. And so I had my associate join me. And then now we actually have a team of four doctors. And so patients actually find number one from word of mouth, like they tell each other, Hey, did you go to the dentist? And they check, they look at your blood work. They check your CBCT. They ask questions about your nutrition. So patients refer patients as our number one. And that's actually how they get into our practices. If they have another patient refer them because good patients refer good patients.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Well, I mean, you're, you're offering a very specific product. I mean, you're offering to, and I was, I sort of laughed because we were, we were talking about how the state of Texas has these just multiple humongous cities. And so you have a large population to draw from. And when you're offering a very specific kind of care, word of mouth is what it takes. I mean, at this point, like, I, I don't know what kind of marketing you do if you need to, because this is the kind of thing that word of mouth, I feel like, like you said, that there's a certain kind of patient that's going to be drawn to you. Yes.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_01] And that's in that, and, and there's probably not many places that are doing what you're doing. So you're sort of a one out of a lot of different practices. Yeah.

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_04] So we identified the two types of patients that come to see us. One, the one that sick of being sick. They went to the conventional medicine. They was like, I do, I did everything my doctor told me to do all the tests, all the medication, three medication for high blood pressure is not getting better. Or something is not right. Right. Or they have a heart attack and they fired their cardiologist. And so there's one last week, the cardiologist passed away because of a heart attack. And I'm like, okay, all right. You have to practice what you preach.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_04] And so that's one type of patient. They sick of being sick. And the second type of patient, they see their loved one getting sick, especially their parents. And they don't want to follow the footstep, especially if it's something like cancer or Alzheimer or cardiovascular, where they had to take care of the parents for a long time. And they said, I don't want to be that to my kid. And so those two patients, they are driven to do more because to be honest, in my practice,

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_04] the patient actually dictated success of the case 80%. We have the knowledge. We have the technology. We have the skill. But the moment they work out of your office, you have no control over what they eat, what they do to their body, how stressful they are with their job and their life. And so the patient had to take the ownership. And because of that, we're practicing happier. They don't blame us when something breaks.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We should wrap with this question. Do you think that the kind of patient that comes to you is already taking that kind of ownership or is there something you can do to help a patient take that ownership? Because I'm going to tell you, every dentist listening to this goes, yeah, that's the worst patient you work on is the one who doesn't own their problems. What's your advice or suggestion for that?

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_04] Yes. So my advice is like telling them that from day one. So on our new patient exam, I share my practice philosophy. And if they not have the verbal commitment to that, then they not get accepted to the practice. I basically said, we are a partnership, but it's an 80-20 partnership. And be your guy.

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_04] And be your guy. You'll be the hero. Because you're the one that will show up here today, paying a lot of money to be seen today. Yeah. And so you're going to go and do the homework. So number one, we have to share our practice philosophy with them and have them verbally commit to it and agree with it. And number two is we give them homework. And the homework is not something expensive. It could be like, make sure you take time to do your breathing. Make sure you're taping your mouth, your nose, you know, open. And then if they don't do that, if they don't using the water pick and the floss, then they're

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_04] not going to take care of the dentistry that you're going to put in their mouth. And so- It's 100% true. Yeah. So you have to be really open from day one because otherwise we just focus on treatment planning and try to convert the case. And then later on, they blame us and say, you never told me how to do all this. I didn't spend this money to have to go in and take care of it every three months. Right?

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_04] And so especially when people are doing all in X, they're thinking, I spend this money and then I don't have to do anything for the rest of my life. And I'm done. Yeah.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_01] And that's, yeah. No, no, that's the X. That's amazing. I love that. I love that. So, okay. Let's just say you've got, because we should wrap it up here, but we've got, let's say patients are like, okay, I'm interested in this way of practicing. I want to know more. What's the best way for them to find out from you or where they should go to learn? I want to tell me where they can find more information.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_04] Yes. So I know your listeners are dentists. And because of that, we have an educational institute called Wellness Dentist Institute. And we always get people to start with the foundation, which means how do you can incorporate all this knowledge into your exam? Your exam is how people are going to remember you for the rest of their experience with you because they never have an exam like that. And it's also where you actually generate a lot of acceptance of treatment because they also didn't know that was what's going on in their mouth and in the body.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_04] And so Wellness Dentist Institute is where we are training dentists and team. And this is actually one of the best ways to go fee for service because all the doctors that are doing this, number one, they don't see a lot of patients. They also have to take time to collaborate with medical professionals. And so patients that are looking for this also coming from the medical practices that don't accept medical insurance. So you have the right audience, you have the right people, the people that are willing to do the work.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_04] And so this is the way for a lot of insurance practices to say, you know what? I'm seeing too many patients and I don't have time to review all of these cases and treatment plan them. I'm going to be able to incorporate this. But first you have to provide value. You have to let the patient know you are different. So when they decide to go somewhere else and they're like, oh, that dentist walk in and just tell me I have no cavities. Never ask me if I have sleep apneas or not. Never ask me if I have teeth extracted for ortho or wisdom teeth or not. Then now you become different.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_04] And when you're different, you can charge whatever fee that you see fit.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. But also I also look at it as you're not really competing with a conventional dental practice. Not at all. At all. So it's not in some ways it's like you're literally saying the kind of practice or the kind of patient that is looking for my office is very specific and we might not fit everyone. That's a great place to be. It's a really good place to be. I like it. Thank you. So I'll make sure all that is in the show notes. Dr. Toe, this was fantastic. I really appreciate your time. And for sure, if we have questions, we'll get them over to you. So thanks for being on.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_04] Thank you, Alan. It's my pleasure.