Very Dental: Dr. Richard Golden on Real-World Efficiency and Physics Forceps

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[00:01:55] This is a production of the Very Dental Podcast Network. This is the Very Dental Podcast. Welcome to the Very Dental Podcast, where you'll find entertaining and relevant conversations with visionaries, clinicians, and your friends in the dental space. Now, here's your host, Dr. Alan Mead.

[00:02:24] Very Dental people, welcome to another episode of the Very Dental Podcast. Again, coming to you from Golden Dent in Roseville, Michigan. It's really nice to have an opportunity to podcast in person. Dr. Golden, a lot of times when I'm recording, I'm sitting in front of a computer in my basement, and whoever I'm recording with is somewhere else, and it works pretty well. Right. But the reality is, is that this has more of a conversational feel.

[00:02:52] Like, the last time I got to do this, I was at the Chicago Midwinter on the floor, and I literally spent three days just having conversations like this. I'd like to welcome back Dr. Richard Golden. Welcome back to the show. Thank you. So, if you guys heard the last episode, we've talked a bit about his history and how he became a dentist and a multiple practice owner in the Metro Detroit area. But also, something he told me that was very interesting to me is that he felt like because

[00:03:18] he had started multiple practices, he needed doctors that could work for him. And he found that a lot of these doctors, their training, and when I say training, man, that's dental schools, basically, wasn't helpful in creating dentists that were efficient and could do a good job but also get the job done in a reasonable amount of time to make it work. And Dr. Golden wanted to start being able to train people to make them better. Am I getting it right so far? Correct. Okay.

[00:03:48] So, tell me about what you felt like the training was missing from dental school or from whatever. Well, I don't want to talk negatively about the way doctors are being trained. I really don't want to do that because I get a lot of bad flack because of it. Sure.

[00:04:09] But I will, when I look at an office or I talk to a doctor, I reverse everything into accounting. Mm-hmm. I basically say to them, how much does it cost for you to run your office every hour? Mm-hmm. Or how much can you produce in an hour to pay the bills? Most dentists have no idea what I'm talking about. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:04:39] Another thing I'll ask them is, if you're going to work eight hours a day, what time of the day is your overhead paid? Mm-hmm. And they look at me like, what are you talking about? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Then I'll say to them, how much, tell me what the percentages are on your management, your

[00:05:05] fixed costs, your variable costs, and how much you want to make. Mm-hmm. Again, they have no clue. Mm-hmm. I'm not trying to badmouth dental school, but dentists are never taught any of that. No, none of it. And still, to this day, I guarantee you there's not much of that either. So, if a dentist comes to me and says, well, I can do two crown preps and take an impression,

[00:05:32] and it takes me two hours, I'll say to them, is that more than your basic office overhead or less than your basic office overhead to produce those two crowns and pay the bills? Mm-hmm. Again, they have no idea what I'm talking about. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:05:52] So, my goal was to train doctors into understanding that if they're there for eight hours and this overhead is this much and this overhead is this much and your payroll is this much, how much do you have to produce in order to pay the bills, make yourself a living, and help me make a living? Mm-hmm.

[00:06:22] Some of them understood and some of them had no clue. Mm-hmm. I would have doctors say, well, that's not my problem. I go, well, why isn't that your problem? Well, I'm a doctor. Mm-hmm. No, I get that. I get that. I know why you're saying that. Yeah. And I go, well, what does being a doctor have to do with any of this? Dr. Golden, you don't understand. I'm a doctor. Mm-hmm. I said, I don't care if you're a doctor. How much does it cost to run this office every day? It's not my problem. I'm a doctor.

[00:06:52] I go, well, doctor, you can't work here. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Thank you. Yeah. And on some level, I get it because there's a bit of treat the patients well, do good treatment, and the money will take care of itself. And I think that that's maybe, I mean, that's kind of what you hear. That's what you, and maybe from like a 30,000 foot perspective, that might be right. But the reality is, is that a dental office is a business. Correct. Dentists are doctors.

[00:07:21] There's one other thing I would tell every doctor. Leave your ego outside. Yeah. Yeah. When you walk in this office, your ego stays outside. Mm-hmm. Because you're here to be a good dentist, to be friends, and to make money. Mm-hmm. If you put your ego in front of all that, you will fail. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And a lot of them failed. I mean, I get that. I get that. That's interesting. So knowing that when you were in dental school, you probably weren't thinking about these things,

[00:07:49] but once you realized what dentistry was like in real life, you decided you wanted to train these people. And so what you're saying actually is like you wanted to make sure these people had an understanding of the business aspects and not just doing excellent treatment, but doing excellent treatment in the amount of time that actually makes a profit for the office, for them, for whatever. And not sacrificing the actual treatment part. Correct. Yeah. And I mean, that's today.

[00:08:19] We have to learn that stuff too. And I would argue, okay, so I've talked to my dad about our experiences in dental school. Like I said, I went to the University of Minnesota. I graduated in 1997. And I remember dad, dad graduated from University of Detroit in 1968. And when he was looking at the clinical experience that I had, he couldn't believe how little clinical experience we had. It's worse today. I mean, and I was just going to say, and now my 1997 graduation from university, I had tons of clinical experience compared to what they're getting now.

[00:08:48] It's less clinical experience now. And my dad would talk about just how dental students at Detroit, they'd just see whatever walked in the door. You know, it was just like, and there was like an unending amount of need for stuff. I know. And so dental students got to do all kinds of stuff. You know, in dental schools now, there's so much middle management to make sure the patients are distributed in this way and all that stuff. And so it's like on some level, you don't just get to jump in and treat patients so easily.

[00:09:18] No. Well, I mean, and it isn't, you can rag on them, but they all do it that way. I mean, it's sort of like, so I don't know. And on some level, if you thought you had dentists that weren't really prepared to work in the real world in a profitable business then, I can only imagine. And I mean, it's maybe one reason why DSOs are so, I mean, they take new dentists like crazy because they're sort of putting them into the machine in a similar way. I wonder if they're training them in this. No, they don't train them at all. Yeah.

[00:09:46] Because their financial structure is based on, if you can produce, let's say, $200 an hour and our overhead for that hour is $180, we're going to make $20 an hour. So 20 times 8 is $160. We're going to make $160 from one doctor in one day. And if they have 100 doctors, do the numbers.

[00:10:16] They don't care. So it's just a numbers game. It's just a numbers game. That's all it is. Over time, you'll find some dentists struggle more with that. Some dentists can really do it. And it's just probably survival of the fittest at some point. Correct. But it's kind of wild when you think about that. So knowing that you were looking for dentists to staff up your offices as well as you started a training center. Tell me about your earliest. Because right now, just so listeners understand, I'm sitting in one of the training centers.

[00:10:46] There's just literally a couple rooms down away, they're teaching right now. They have a classroom, and then they have a hands-on area, and it's pretty cool, actually. But I'm curious about how did that start for you, and what did it look like back in the very beginning? Well, I looked at dentistry in a completely different way.

[00:11:12] Instead of saying, this is what I start with, these are the procedures, one, two, three, four, to get to the end, I reversed it. I said to myself, I don't care what I start with. All I care about is what I end up with. And that sounds really stupid or crazy. So I came up with the theory of, I call it, end product dentistry.

[00:11:41] So now what I start with is what I end up with. And doctors would say to me, well, what the hell does that mean? Well, let me, I'll give you a perfect example. If you're going to do a crown prep, and you do procedure one, procedure two, procedure three, procedure four, and it takes you 45 minutes, you're done.

[00:12:03] I look at it and say, how can I wind up with the same end procedure in 10 minutes? Oh, you can't do that. And I would say to him, yes, I can. Because I'm going to do things a little differently. Instead of spending 45 minutes, I can show you how to do it in 10 minutes. So if you can do it in 10 minutes instead of 45 minutes, isn't that better?

[00:12:32] And I would say 90% of them would say to me, I'm not going to learn that. Why not? Well, I went to dental school. That's how they taught me how to do it. And I would say, well, if you can't change, then you can't work here. Because do it in an hour or two hours. Go ahead. But you'll never make a living. That was so foreign to them. What do you mean I won't make a living? I'm a doctor. Back to that, yeah.

[00:13:04] A root canal. An anterior root canal. Shouldn't take you more than 10 minutes. Not two hours. Dr. Holden, I was taught to do it in two hours. You're telling me that I can do it in 10 minutes? I'm not working here. You're doing something wrong. Well, if you feel that way, don't work here. I got tired of it. So I decided I don't want to do this anymore.

[00:13:29] But if you look at the end product, what do I want to wind up with? I don't care what I start with. I can teach you how to be a more productive, more efficient dentistry than you ever, ever imagined. Because all I ever did was experiment in techniques. And instead of going for 40 minutes, I can do it in 10. And I'd love to teach you how to do that.

[00:13:57] And that's limited my ability to attract doctors, my ability to train them. Because they had this wall. Well, I would have many of them say, so you mean to tell me they taught me wrong in dental school? And my answer would be, if you want to make, let's say, $50,000 a year, do it their way.

[00:14:25] If you want to make $400,000 a year, learn my way. Same tooth. And they still have problems with it. What's interesting about that, too, is that it doesn't seem that hard to... You don't even have to say that they taught you wrong, necessarily. They taught you a way to be safe and understand the concept. But that doesn't mean you can't refine it. I mean, I feel like that makes some... And I would say that there's a lot of continuing education out there that looks at that now. I think now it does.

[00:14:54] Maybe not so much then. So you were working on efficiency when efficiency was kind of poo-pooed a little bit. It's still poo-pooed. Yeah. In some places, I think you're right. So tell me, what did your training center look like? Was it only for dentists that were working for you? Or were you doing... It was just a regular dental office that I would work at. Okay. And I would bring the doctor in and show them my way. And then I would help them, if they wanted, to replicate what I showed them.

[00:15:23] Mm-hmm. So it was like a hands-on thing. Correct. It was all hands-on. They could sit next to you. Okay. So that's a pretty good way to learn. Yeah. Like maybe the best way, honestly. Just see one, do one kind of thing. That's interesting. Interesting. So how did that turn into what we have now, where you guys are teaching dentists across the state, across the country, whatever, in a situation like this? Because you guys do a lot of continuing education.

[00:15:47] And you're at a lot of meetings where you've got products that help dentists do these procedures better, quicker, easier, that sort of thing. Well, like I've already mentioned, it's based on what I call end product dentistry. Mm-hmm. Like an extraction. Mm-hmm. First of all, would you even do that extraction? Mm-hmm.

[00:16:09] And if the answer is no, then you're losing money, you're losing the confidence in that patient, and you're wasting chair time. Mm-hmm. I had a doctor in this course about three years ago. He was 55 years old. He told me that he's been a dentist for 30 years. And this is the interesting part.

[00:16:36] He says to me, he goes, I drive a 10-year-old car. Mm-hmm. My oral surgeon drives a new Bentley. Mm-hmm. I live in a $300,000 house, and I still have a mortgage. My oral surgeon lives in a $3 million house, and I'm sure he has no mortgage. Mm-hmm. He said to me, I send him $150,000 a year worth of extractions.

[00:17:05] I don't want to do that anymore. Mm-hmm. And I said to him, oh, he said to me, can you help me? Mm-hmm. And I said, well, if you have an open mind, and you can understand the theory behind the physics force-up, Mm-hmm. And you can train your brain and your hand to adapt to the theory, you, not right away, but after maybe a year, you'll only send him $20,000 a year. Mm-hmm.

[00:17:35] Mm-hmm. But that's up to you. Mm-hmm. I can show you. I can actually hold your hand and show you, but if you don't want to do it, you'll never master the instrument. Mm-hmm. I know that. So tell me a little bit about how did you develop that? How did the physics force-up come about? Well, as I already mentioned, my end product dentistry allowed me to experiment. Mm-hmm. And say, how can I do this better?

[00:18:07] So I would walk into my office when I was starting years before, and I would have 20 people waiting for extractions. Mm-hmm. So if it took me an hour to do two extractions, I could only see eight patients. Right. Exactly. So I started to say, what can I do? How can I do this to make this extraction easier? Not only for the patient, but for myself. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:36] So I started to put pressure on different parts of the tooth. I understood that when you take a tooth out, it's no different than taking a hammer and removing a nail. Mm-hmm. Instead of squeezing, I moved my wrist. Mm-hmm. Instead of moving my arm, I moved my wrist. Mm-hmm. And when I, depending on where I put the two ends of the forcep. Mm-hmm.

[00:19:04] And it became very simple for me to take out teeth that doctors wouldn't even do, take them out 30 seconds. Mm-hmm. Because of the force. Mm-hmm. And I kept experimenting, and the teeth kept coming out easier and faster. Mm-hmm. And then I went to, eventually went to a patent attorney. What made me go to a patent attorney is very interesting.

[00:19:37] Is that a typodont behind you? It is. It is. Oh, can you hand it to me? Absolutely. Let me grab it. Hang on. Oh, thank you. I had assistants that would work for me. And this is a typodont. Mm-hmm. And these teeth are purposely destroyed. Yep. They're beat up. Yep. Yeah. And I would, this is for training purposes. Mm-hmm. But many times I would have patients exactly like this. Mm-hmm.

[00:20:05] Number 12, 13, no, excuse me, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. Mm-hmm. All these teeth are bombed out, rotted to the gum. Mm-hmm. So I would say to my, I would have a new assistant, and I would say to her, get the instruments, and we're going to take out 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. And the assistant would set this up because the physics foursomes didn't exist. Mm-hmm.

[00:20:35] So they would give me the standard instruments, and I would go ahead and take out these five teeth in less than 10 minutes. Mm-hmm. And my assistants would say to me, Dr. Golden, I don't understand. And I go, well, what don't you understand? And they would say, how did you do that? Mm-hmm. And I would say to them, how did I do what? How did you take those teeth out in 10 minutes? I worked for several doctors. They wouldn't even touch those teeth. Mm-hmm. They'd send them all to the oral surgeon.

[00:21:05] Mm-hmm. I would, I would, didn't think, I didn't think anything about it. Mm-hmm. I would hire another dental assistant, and I said, we're going to take out three and four. So she'd get my standard instruments, and I would take these two teeth out in less than five minutes. Mm-hmm. I would have the same reaction. Dr. Golden, what did you just do? Mm-hmm. I go, well, I took those teeth out. Mm-hmm.

[00:21:33] And they would say to me, no, no, no, no. I work for four doctors. One of the four doctors would probably take these teeth out, and it would take them an hour and a half. Mm-hmm. What did you do? Mm-hmm. So I said to myself, maybe, maybe I got something here. Yeah, right. So I went, and I saw a patent attorney, and I showed him my technique in taking these teeth out. Mm-hmm.

[00:22:02] And he said, well, let's apply for a patent. And in the patent, it's really based on a class one lever, what we call is the beak and the bumper. Mm-hmm. So we applied for a patent, not a design patent, but a process patent, because we didn't have the force up. Didn't have the force up yet. Got it. So I waited about a year and a half, and the patent was granted. Then I said to him, well, can I make the instrument? Yeah.

[00:22:31] And he goes, yeah, yeah, you can. So I found a little tool and dye shop, and I took my existing instruments, and he cut the ends off, and then he started to make beaks and bumpers. Mm-hmm. And then I would take what he made, and then I'd go work with him, and I'd go back, and I'd say, make this a little longer, make this a little bigger. Then I'd go back again and say, curve this more.

[00:22:59] And then after about a year doing that, I was happy with what he had made. And then I went to my patent attorney, and I showed it to him, and he said, yeah, we can patent those. So I went and got him patented. Okay. Okay. When was that about? That was probably 2006, 2007. Okay. Okay. I'm old. I don't remember. I get it. I get it. I mean, they've been in my orbit for around that time. So yeah.

[00:23:29] Yeah, I would say 2006, 2007. Okay. So and the reality is, it's a different, it's not, I mean, what they teach in dental school. No. Not at all. Is nothing like this. I mean, it's a, and your concept is, it's definitely, well, it's physics forceps. There's some interesting physics going on there. It's all physics. And it's essentially, you're using a rotational force with the wrist. It's all based on wrist movement. Okay.

[00:23:58] If you move your arm, squeeze your arm, nothing will happen. If you constantly put pressure on that tooth with your wrist and slowly move your wrist, 20 seconds, 30 seconds, 40 seconds, 50 seconds, the tooth will move. Because what you, what you're doing is you're creating energy. And doctors look at me, what the hell is that mean? And I'll, and here's a perfect example.

[00:24:29] Why, why does my finger put a hole in that, in that plastic? Put a dent in the plastic bottle. Yeah. With full water. It's my finger. Yeah. Because of energy. Yeah. That's energy. Mm-hmm. The energy makes the hole. Mm-hmm. Just doing this, there's no energy. Mm-hmm. Doing this, there's energy. Mm-hmm. That's exactly what that instrument does. Mm-hmm. It creates energy. Okay. And that energy moves the root. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:56] And so your concept is, is the energy focused in the right place with the right amount, give it a little bit of time and it'll start. I mean, anyone who's luxated a tooth kind of has the same concept. You're luxating in a very specific way. But I mean, you're waiting for the ligament to let go, essentially. Is that what you're talking about? Well, actually, when I first invented them and started advertising it, I got a letter from

[00:25:24] another doctor and he said to me, do you know exactly what happens when that instrument's on the tooth? No, he called me. And I said, no, I have no idea. He goes, well, I forget what kind of a doctor he was. He was a, like a, well, anyway, he told me what exactly what happens. He goes, when you put that beak on that tooth and you move your wrist, you create energy.

[00:25:52] And what the energy does, it goes down the root and it releases hyaluronic acid. Okay. And I said to him, I never heard of that. I had no idea what was going on. But honestly, it's interesting, but it also doesn't really matter. I mean, it's a little. He says, that's why that tooth moves. Okay. I go, that's what happens? He goes, yeah. I go, I had no idea. There you go.

[00:26:17] So just so I understand, what you, I mean, you've, you've created different forceps with the same concept for different areas of the mouth. Correct. What forcep is that? What teeth would that work on? That's the upper, that's the upper left. Excuse me, upper right. Upper right. Okay. One to five. One to five. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. There's four instruments. Upper right, upper left, anterior, and then the lower does all the teeth. Okay. Okay. So the lower, okay. Interesting. Okay.

[00:26:46] But then we were, because of the bumper being so big, the bumper won't go back here for the wisdom teeth. Okay. Okay. So then we invented, I invented two other instruments for wisdom teeth. Okay. Upper and lower. Okay. And we call those easy one and easy two. Easy one, easy two. Okay. They're based on the same principle, but they're designed differently. Okay. Okay. Okay. And it's probably a lot about access because you're so far back there. Yeah.

[00:27:16] You'll never get that back there. Okay. It's just too big. Okay. So what's interesting too is that, of course, everyone who's used a conventional forcep is the wrong movement for what you're talking about. In other words, I mean, even myself, if let's say I'm, I mean, a lot of times you're going after a tooth that's really broken down. It's subgingival, that sort of thing. And even then squeezing too hard is the kiss of death, even though that you do need to use it, you're trying to grab it. This is not squeezing at all.

[00:27:44] You want to squeeze almost none on these. There's no squeezing at all. Yeah. Yeah. It's just placing it in the right place. It's real simple. If you put one end of the force up here and one end of the force up here, what makes that tooth move? Pulling your arm. And that breaks teeth. It does. And you go, what the hell am I going to do now? Yeah. Yeah. But if you put a beak, excuse me, if you put a beak here and a bumper here and you move

[00:28:13] your wrist, that's all it is. Yeah. The fulcrum of the movement is a very different place than the conventional force up. Yeah. Exactly. Interesting. Interesting. And so for people who, and done the way that you designed it, it's a pretty atraumatic procedure is what you're saying. Well, the wonderful thing is when the old way, the patient's head would move. The new way, the patient doesn't even know you take their tooth out. Okay. Okay.

[00:28:42] Even as good as it is, doctors are terrified. Not because of the instrument not working, but because if the tooth breaks, what do I do now? Mm-hmm. So if I'm going to take that tooth out, and let's say I squeeze too hard or I move too fast or I move my arm, and the root breaks, what do they do now? Mm-hmm. Lay a flap? They don't want to do that. Right. All right.

[00:29:14] So, not to brag, but I'm inventing a new way to take the root out. Okay. Okay. No, hey, that's great. That's awesome. And it's really amazing. Okay. I mean, really amazing ways to take roots out. I think that gets attention, to be sure. That's why most doctors don't want to do extractions. Not because of taking the tooth out, because of the root. Mm-hmm. So if the root breaks, what am I doing? You have to go digging after it. Want to do section it, lay a flap, take an hour? Mm-hmm. They don't want to do it. Mm-hmm.

[00:29:42] So I'm inventing a way to, I wouldn't say every root. I'd say 80 to 85% of them, you can take them out in less than five minutes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And not do a flap. Mm-hmm. No flap. Yeah. Well, no flap is nice. That's honestly, that's a lot of people like me that, like, that's the difference between surgery and just taking a tooth out, you know? Well, the doctors who do implants always tell you, you do a flap and take all the bone away, the implant won't work. Yeah, yeah.

[00:30:12] I mean, you're, like, the bone is so vital. Right. And a lot of extraction techniques. I mean, okay. Extraction techniques, when I was in dental school, you'd go into the oral surgery, you'd go for your oral surgery rotation, and the first thing they wanted you to do was lay a big flap and start drilling on bone. And as a third-year dental student, that scares the hell out of me. Hell yeah. And, you know, you're not any kind of suturing genius. So, I mean, everything took forever. And you're like, this is what taking teeth out is like?

[00:30:40] And the reality is, it's like, no. But also, maybe the oral surgeons wanted the general dentist to feel that way about taking teeth out. I don't know. Uh, it's worse than that. I've been kicked out of three dental schools because of oral surgeons. Yeah, I get it. Do you know how scared oral surgeons are of me? Yeah. Not because I'm a bad guy. Because how do most oral surgeons make their money? Referrals. Right. Yeah.

[00:31:05] So, instead of sending that to an oral surgeon and getting $600, $800, if you can do it yourself, they're going to lose that income. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I was at the dental school in San Francisco about probably 10, 12 years ago. Mm-hmm. The oral surgery department was on the basement. The general dentistry was on the first floor.

[00:31:31] The head of the general dentistry walked up to me and she goes, Dr. Golden. She looks around. She goes, I hate to tell you this, but if the oral surgeons downstairs know you're here, I'm going to get fired. I swear to God. Yeah. And I go, what are you talking about, Dr. Golden? You have to leave. I go, I flew here from Detroit. You told me to come. We have, I'm doing a lecture. She goes, you can't. They'll fire me. That's wild.

[00:32:00] I went to Memphis, Tennessee to their dental school. Mm-hmm. I walk in, said hello to all the students, and then another student walked in and said, you have to leave. I go, what do you mean I have to leave? You told me to come here. Mm-hmm. No, you don't understand. They didn't know you were coming here. The students asked you to come here. Yeah, yeah. Not the oral surgeons. Yeah. They are above us. They tell us what to do. Yeah. But if they know you're here, I'm going to get expelled.

[00:32:31] Yeah. I swear to God. So do you have any oral surgeons who come around and like to use the physics forceps? Oh, all the time. Yeah. But they won't tell you. I don't think there's one oral surgeon that'll ever admit to using them. Uh-huh. Because it's too easy. When I first started to let the profession know, a friend of mine was the dean of the dental school at U of D. Mm-hmm. So he allowed me to come there and put a demonstration on.

[00:33:01] And it was a tooth. It was a number three, just like this. Mm-hmm. And I was scared to death because I didn't know. With my luck, it'd probably break. Sure, yeah. Yeah. So I had like four or five doctors around me. And I walked up there. Sweat was coming off. Sure, yeah. And I go, God, God, please make this go good. Make it work, yeah. Yeah. So I put the beak and the bumper on.

[00:33:27] And I can usually do this in like 40, 45 seconds. So I waited a minute, a minute and a half, and I saw it move. And then I went like this, and it came right out. Mm-hmm. And then I asked the patient, I go, do you know I just took your tooth out? And the patient goes, uh-uh. That's wild. I didn't know you did anything. I get a call about two weeks later from the oral surgery department. Mm-hmm. Come and get your instruments. They fail. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:57] And I go, what are you talking about? Well, we have this one patient that he broke the tooth, and he couldn't get the root out, and he doesn't want them here. So I had another friend of mine who worked in that department, and I called him up. And they called me back, and they said, Dr. Golden, he never used your instrument on that tooth. Interesting. He just doesn't want them here, period. Mm-hmm. Eventually, he left. Mm-hmm.

[00:34:22] Once he left, they called me back and said, come and bring your instruments again. Mm-hmm. What's interesting, too, though, like you could, if you didn't know the technique, if you didn't know, if you tried to use it like a regular forcep, it would be a nightmare because it's not the same technique at all. No, that's what the course is all about. Yeah, exactly. So if someone is hearing this and goes, okay, I got to look into this because this is, you know, I don't love surgery or I take too long taking teeth out or whatever.

[00:34:48] So you guys teach how to use this, and then you go over and do live patient extractions with the instruments. Correct. Right here in Metro Detroit. Right. So, and this is something that, like, I think a lot of people don't realize. I've heard of people say, well, you know, I can invest a lot in these instruments, but I'm not sure if I'm using them right. You're saying, don't worry about it. We'll show you how to use them right. Do you do a lot of extractions? I do a fair amount, actually.

[00:35:16] Well, would you like me to come to Saginaw and show you how to use these? Oh, hell yeah. That'd be fantastic. But you got to have, I'm not coming for five extractions. Yeah, we got to line some people up is what you're saying. Give me, if you have, do you have full miles? I don't do a ton of full miles, but I mean, I know that we've got people around. At very least, maybe I should come down here first and take the course. Then we'll talk. Well, if you have your own patience, I'll be happy to come up there and show you how to use it. Interesting. So, it'll be my pleasure.

[00:35:45] But, for people listening right now, if you're interested, the place to do it is here. Well, we only see it once a month. It's only an hour and a half drive. It's no big deal. I know. It's close by. That's one of the reasons I was coming down here. It was an easy drive. Yeah. So, if you could line up four or five patients, I'll be happy to come up there and show you how to use it. I'll see what I can come up with. That's really fun. That's really cool. Dr. Golden, this has been a blast. I think we've learned a lot. I'll make sure all of the photos, I'll take a photo of the instrument and the typodon.

[00:36:15] I'll take all that stuff, put it in the show notes, and if people have questions, I'll make sure I can get them to you and have you answer them and all that stuff. This was fantastic. I really appreciate your time. My pleasure. That's an open invitation. That's fantastic. Thank you. And if you guys are interested in finding out more about the instruments, check the links in the show notes. We'll send you over to the Golden Dent website where you can see all the different CE. Now, mind you, Golden Dent has a whole bunch of products that are, I would have to say, oh, they've got a ton of endo stuff.

[00:36:44] They've got a bunch of restorative stuff. But in the same vein of making stuff easier, quicker, and better with the idea of the endpoint. We had Tim Kaczynski on just a couple weeks ago talking about the extraction grafting courses and stuff like that. And much of what is associated, in my mind, with Golden Dent is simplifying the stuff that seems mystifyingly hard. Is that how you'd feel? Correct. Yeah. It's very cool. It's really nice to be here.

[00:37:13] And you guys, check all this stuff out. If you have questions or comments, we can talk about it on the Facebook group. I will get any questions to Dr. Golden himself. And again, thank you very much for being on. Say any positive questions. That's right. That's right. That's right. Thanks a ton. We'll get some negative ones, too. Yeah, for sure. Always. Thank you. Thank you.