Very Dental: Dr. Tuan Pham on Regret Minimization and Dental Maverick AI

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[00:01:37] Stop overpaying and streamline your ordering today at Net32.com slash VeryDental. Head to Net32.com slash VeryDental and see what your practice could be saving. Very Dental people, welcome to another episode of the Very Dental podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Alan Mead. Joining me today is someone I've known online for, I mean, since Dentaltown days, 12, 15, 20 years ago, something like that. I don't know.

[00:02:04] I've known him for a long time. This is the first time we actually talked. This is Tuan Fam. Tuan Fam. Sorry. Tuan Fam. You just told me and I screwed it up. But your name's not as hard as some. Like, some are a lot harder. I like simple syllables. I'll take simple syllables. How do you say your Dentaltown handle? Well, you know, I was actually born in Germany, so I like to fly fish also. So it's fliegenfishing. It's fly fishing in Germany.

[00:02:32] Oh, you were born in Germany. Interesting. Yes, sir. But then you're in Austin, Texas now. Is that correct? That is correct. I've lived here for many years. I went to college here, so I'm a log porn, so. Okay. Okay. Nice. Nice. Germany, that's interesting. And it makes sense, your Dentaltown handle. So I've known Tuan since Dentaltown days.

[00:02:54] I've known of Tuan probably before he even started what he was kind of first known for, which is the Maverick, you know, Maverick Dentist, Maverick System. So, and he's kind of come a long way. We're going to talk about a bunch of that stuff. So, Tuan, tell me a little bit about your, what's your background and where'd you go to school? You went to school in Texas. Tell me about how you became what you are. Well, we could start depending where you want. So we'll start at the beginning, you know. Oh, one second. Let me give me my apologies. I will put my phone in.

[00:03:23] Not disturb. Okay. So, very good. So, for me, let's start at the beginning. You know, people ask me why did I become a dentist? And, you know, it takes me back to college years. And honestly, I was sitting in my dorm and I had 80 plus hours. And then the advisor was like, what are you going to do with your life? And I was like, you know what? Let me think about it.

[00:03:40] And I will never forget this. I went back to my dorm. It took me maybe a couple hours, but my thought in life was, I don't want to work Fridays. And I'm like, who doesn't work Fridays? And it was the dentist. I was like, all my dentists never worked Fridays because my mom would say that. So, there we go. So, I became a dentist. And, you know, I went to dental school. You know, I'm a nerd. I'm a geek. I'm really a nerd. And I'm, you know, I used to think very linearly in life, meaning that, you know, if we study hard, we do well in school, then that will translate to a successful career.

[00:04:09] And it does for most instances, you know, to some degree. You know, it teaches you to have discipline in what you do and working hard. But, you know, it doesn't really translate in life. You know, some of the smartest people, they're very good at what they do, but they get pigeonholed. They do the same thing and they're kind of in the corner and they don't really break free from what they want in their lives. So, as I got older, you know, I went to dental school. I got my first job. I worked as an associate for a fee-for-service office. That's what I, my first thing, my first reference point.

[00:04:36] And then one day I got let go because the office got purchased, you know, and I was offered the office to buy, but at young age of 26 years old or whatever like that, and you get a note, information, a note that says, you know, you're going to take a one plus million dollar loan. I couldn't fathom it. My brain just couldn't accept what that was. You know, I made $83,000 my first year out of school. And for me, that was enormous sum of money that I'd never seen my whole life. When did you graduate? When did you graduate? 2005.

[00:05:06] 2005. Okay. Okay. I didn't have any dogs. It was myself. That was plenty of beer drinking money, you know? Sure it was. Back when I drank a lot of beer. So these days I'm getting old. I got to watch what I do, you know? But like for me, that was a lot of money. And so I couldn't fathom it. And then, you know, I got let go and then I'll never forget. It's the loss of security in the moment that made you really think about what you wanted in your life.

[00:05:26] Like, I was like, how could he pull this rug from me? Even though I knew it was my decision, you know? But until that happens, you don't know that feeling. And that got me on the path. I'll never forget that also. So I was sitting on my computer. I had discovered Dentaltown. I started reading about, you know, dentists that were successful, all these things. And just reading random things that, you know what? It lit a fire in me.

[00:05:47] And I was like, you know what? I'm a nerd. I made it through dental school with high grades. How can I translate this into my career? And that's when the motivation really started. I started learning everything outside of dentistry in terms of business. And I say that because when I was younger, I remember having a conversation with my dad early out of dental school. He's like, why don't you just buy a practice or start a practice, you know? Then you won't have to worry about this.

[00:06:11] And I remember I got mad at him. I yelled at him. We got in an argument. And looking in hindsight, that was so stupid. You know, he was right. And then so that motivated me. I started getting this fire. Once I got that fire, that was it. You know, I was like, I'm going to solve this. And around that time, it was the Olympics, too. It was Michael Phelps. You know, he won all those competitions. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, you know what? I can be, I can get a big fat loan and I'll take the risk because I'm single and by myself. I can fail in bankruptcy. Okay, that sucked.

[00:06:39] I could tread water and just work my whole career until I'm like 70 years old or whatever. That's okay, but that's not really ideal. Or I could do really well and then do what I want in my life and see where it takes me. So I decided on that and that's basically it. You know, I read everything. I'm an avid reader. These days, I listen to audiobooks. Yeah, I remember that. I remember like literally what was interesting about that is you were, I mean, you kind of had that mental, I don't know, transformation or whatever on Dentaltown.

[00:07:06] I just remember you were a guy who kind of shared a lot about what you've been getting into. And I mean, you were, I was, I'm a couple years ahead of you, like eight years ahead of you, it sounds like. Like, and I was, I was already kind of, I bought a practice early. I was way over my head. I was, I was a hot mess. But I mean, like I kind of pulled it together by the time I got on Dentaltown a little bit. And so you were someone who came in and you sort of had that transformation live on, on Dentaltown.

[00:07:35] So everyone kind of saw it. I sort of remember all this. So you did a startup, didn't you? I did. I did do a startup. I did a recession in 2008 and everyone thought I was crazy. Okay. I just want to remember this. I just want to remember this. But I was like, I'm going for it. And you know, like I'm a big reader. So I, one of my favorite authors, I'm actually seeing him in town coming up next month is, is Malcolm Gladwell, you know? Yeah. Yeah. He's a great art author. I love his books. I love his stats. And you know, he talks about, there's a book, he talks about being a maven, which is where you, you just proclaim and talk about everything you like.

[00:08:05] It's the same with me. You know, I like to learn, you know, I don't care if people make fun of me or whatever. Like I asked all the questions, even if you thought it was dumb in school, because I'm paying for it. And if I find the data, I like to share it. So that's who I am. And it's really funny you say that, because you remember there were, there are people listening to this right now who always hated the guy who sat in the front row and asked questions. Like, come on. And to this day, you'll have, you go to CE and there's some, some guy asking all the questions and stuff. But you know what?

[00:08:30] Those guys get a lot more out of what they're paying for their education, all that stuff. They really do. Like on some level, it's like, it's easy to sit in the back and complain. It's a little harder to just, and also not caring about what other people think is sort of a big deal as well. So that's kind of, it's kind of cool that you did that. Yeah. I, I, I, it's a fault that my, my, to some degree that my wife doesn't like, you know, but. I don't care what people think about me. And this is my thought.

[00:08:54] Like if I have that question, I am almost certain that someone else around me has that same question. But I'm not afraid to ask for it. Yeah. So I don't, I don't care. Like make fun of me. I don't care. So Tuan is the guy you want to go to the class with and sit a couple seats away. Cause he'll ask the question, but you don't have to like necessarily, you can, you can still be cool and not like, not like you can just stay just far enough away that you're, you're out of the, out of the bomb zone, out of the blast zone. I like that. I think that's exactly. Exactly. So what, what happened with what, how did dental maverick come about?

[00:09:24] I mean, that also happened kind of live and in person on dental town. What, tell me what dental maverick is and how did that come about? Okay. Well, uh, I started with training dentists and I've done it for many years. Uh, you know, the life. Yeah. You know, we go through phases of life where you're passionate about certain things and over time it kind of winds down or wanes a little, but at that moment I'll never forget. So I like doing things and I liked, I like the challenge in life. That's what drives me. Okay. Everything I do now has to have a challenge, but a satisfaction to some other degree.

[00:09:53] You know, some people work to make money. That's fine. Money is a bride byproduct of what you want. But if you're really passionate about something, there's a Japanese term called ikigai, which means like if you like it, it's congruent with you. If you do it, then there's joy out of it. And so back at that portion of my life, locally, I ran this group with my friend and it was like, we found people in various industries. We were doing startups, entrepreneurs, whatever. And we would hang out every month. We'd have a fun activity. Then usually we'd get drinks afterwards and it just stimulate chat or whatever we're doing.

[00:10:23] And so I remember telling this guy at the table, I was like, man, you know what? I know how to teach people. I really like teaching. And the guy said to me, he's like, well, why don't you just do it? And I'm like, yeah, I guess. He's like, no, no, no, you can do it because I know literally what you do on Fridays. You do nothing. You sit there and you drink beer and you do nothing because it's your day off. And I looked at him and I'll never forget. I was like, you know what? You're absolutely correct. I will start this process next week. It's like someone just had to tell me or put it in my face.

[00:10:53] I love it. And so it took me, I remember it took me a year. I wrote every Friday. Some days I was motivated. Some days less. Some days I'd sit for an hour. Some days I'd sit for 30 minutes. But I wrote, I mean, I printed it out once. It was a stack of probably a foot worth of paper. And then after that, you know, I had a friend, a very interesting guy. We recorded this back in the day when everything was very difficult to do. Yeah. Video was difficult. So we recorded. We had a teleprompter with an iPad, whole nine yards. Our editing was terrible compared to these days. But like.

[00:11:23] Oh my gosh. So it's very true. But like, honestly, the fact that you did it tells me that you, you had some stick to it because yeah, it was really hard to do all that stuff back in the day. Yeah. It was super hard, but it was fun. And then, you know, uh, you know, there's doubt at the beginning. People were like, oh, you can't make a name for stuff. You don't know yourself. But I was like, hey man, I have confidence. I don't care what you think. But I've helped people locally that I knew build their practices in various stages of their life. And I was like, you know what? I know this works. It's, you know, it's, it's a lot of success in dentistry.

[00:11:52] It doesn't have to do with, uh, I hate to say this, you know, it's not to imply or say someone should be bad clinically, but the success that we want financially for a lot of times, you know, we should always work on a clinical success. Like, especially if you're there for a long time, like there's nothing worse than a redo. A remake is the most expensive thing in the world. Oh yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. The, the ability to be successful, to do that dental work and have the patient accept it comes not from physical hand skills.

[00:12:19] It comes from your ability to talk to people, connect with people, enjoy that process. And when they do, and they like you, it's congruent. And then they'll open their ears to listen to what you have to say and accept the treatment. So that's what I really train a lot on. It's, it's, it's how to create that, how to understand it, how to say things that if you're not good at it at the beginning, then I just give you prompt prompts and scripts. And over time you become confident. And it, it's a, it's a reinforcement cycle and you get better. So, you know, that's, that's what I did back in the day. So that's what Dental Maverick was when you were first putting it out.

[00:12:47] And, and, cause I mean, you were, you were having, you were doing classes, you were doing shoot, you were doing meetings, all kinds of stuff. Is that, that's Dental Maverick was, was kind of like soft skills and business skills. Is that what it was? Yeah, it is. It still is. Uh, you know, I, I stopped doing those live events cause you know, like we're talking about stages in life. Like I lost the interest in that. That's a lot of hard work. And you got little kids if I remember correctly too. So. Yeah. And then I had kids. So that really put a damper on things. Oh God. Yeah. I did. Yeah. And availability. Now they're foreign sticks.

[00:13:15] So I have more time, you know, like, but like, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I'm in a different phase of my life. I'm doing something different now. So, you know, that's, that's what I enjoy. So Dental Maverick, if someone's like, I could really use it. Dental Maverick is still going. It's just going in a different way. Is that correct? Yeah. It's online. It's, it's online based. It's at your convenience. Uh, the, the, some of the stuff that I say and I relate to is like a decade old. So it does. I know. I know. It shows its age, but. I get it. I get it. It's still there. Yeah. And the story is that kind of thing.

[00:13:44] Soft skills like that are kind of an evergreen thing. They kind of, they kind of work. They continue to work, but yeah. So the video is not as good as it would be maybe or something like that. I get it. Oh, if I record it now, it would look brilliant. AI would like edit it. Oh, you could do it. It would be super easy to do too. I know. It's got to break your heart a little bit. And I, I mean, I listened to the old episodes of the podcast. I'm like, oh God. It's like, and I remember how much time it took me to, to edit everything. And it's just, it's such a different animal. Like, like for, I hate.

[00:14:10] I kind of hate the con, the concept of a content creator, but for people who are making a living and getting out there as content creators, they have no idea how easy they have it compared to the way it used to be. I mean, like there was, yeah, there was really no such thing, you know, like literally you can kind of make an entire, you can kind of make an entire life just carrying a phone around. It's kind of wild, but anyhow, Tuan did not do that. Tuan went all in. So we'll make sure that there's a link to dental, dental Maverick.

[00:14:40] If, if, uh, if people want to check that out. So that's sort of like, that's like the original thing. So what I know that this is an, an odd question. So you are not, you don't do much clinical anymore. Is that right? No, no. I retired about two years ago. Um, okay. You know, it was something that was on my mind for a while. Like, uh, once it's in your mind, it's hard to shake. Okay. And for me, you know, uh, I have younger kids. My kids are four and six right now. And, you know, like I was saying earlier, I go through phases in life, which means that,

[00:15:10] you know, professionally I had been a dentist for quite a while. Uh, I graduated in 2005. So at that time, you know, 20, 20 years or 20 something years, I forget, but like I've accomplished everything that I wanted clinically and professionally to a high degree of what I wanted. And so, you know, I became a parent, you know, and at that time for me in my personal life, becoming a parent is very important to me. That's the ultimate goal in my life. Like if I want to have kids, I want to be available, you know?

[00:15:38] And so it weighed on my mind. And then I kept talking to my wife and my wife was like, fine, just, just make the, just make the move. If you want to quit, you know, we have enough money. We don't have to work. You don't have to work again if you don't want to. And so I thought about it. And the thing that really sealed the deal for me is there's a video on YouTube by Jeff Bezos. It's called regret minimization framework. And I'm, and I showed this to anyone that has similar thoughts, Jeff Bezos in this two minute video, he's being interviewed. He's like, you know, the guy's like, well, well, how did you decide to do Amazon? And he's like, you know what?

[00:16:08] I imagined that I was 80 years old. And I looked back to that time when the internet was booming and he's like, well, I have a regret if I don't do this. And the moment he thought about it, he's like, yes. And he's working a fine job, well-paying job at that time. And he gave it all up to do Amazon. And so once I watched that video, I thought back and I was like, you know what? This is it. I have the opportunity to not be a clinical dentist and stay home, do mundane things that like drive my kids to school, which I did today. And I go to the gym. Same here. It's glorious. You know? Yeah. It's like, you know what?

[00:16:39] These, what do they call them? Magical golden ages, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. You're your whole life. Like, I want to be there, you know? And I think back, like when they were a little younger, you know, I just came home. If I went to the gym, it's like six o'clock. They go to sleep around seven. I see them for an hour or something like that. That's it. You know? So different lifestyle. Al Franken. You remember, you know, Al Franken, the guy, he was a senator. He's a comedian, all that stuff. Al Franken used to talk about something. He said, you know, people always talk about having quality time with your family and your kids.

[00:17:08] He said, but there's something to be said about quantity time as well. In other words, just being around. Just being around. That's exactly what you're talking right now. And I will say that I, there's a lot of things I don't do. A lot of dental meetings I don't go to. A lot of talks that I don't give. A lot of stuff because I've got kids and I'm around. And it's, it's basically, and honestly, maybe I'll pick some more of this stuff up because they're, my kids are older, but, but the idea of having that quantity time, I, I admire you for it.

[00:17:38] I think it was a great decision. No matter what happens, it was a great decision on your part. Your kids will remember that forever, for sure. You know, there's the, you know, if you're talking about books, you know, a lot of people have read this book, Die With Zero. And it's, it's an interesting book. It's about what you decide in your life as time passes and how you want to exit one day. But like, but you know, he tells, he says a very good point. He's like, what is your life when you're on your deathbed? It's a series of memories. That's what you remember. Hopefully your family's around you, but it's a series of memories. And so for me, I was like, you know what? I want this.

[00:18:08] I'm going to go for it. And I firmly believe that, that, that if I exited dentistry clinically, it would avail myself and free myself up so that something else may occur. Like, you know, people believe, some people believe in luck, you know, like I don't believe in luck, meaning that your life and what you end up is a part of luck. I believe in the fact that luck gives you the opportunity to recognize it. So I told myself that if luck and the opportunity availed myself after I quit dentistry, if it's

[00:18:35] something that's congruent with what I do, I'm sure I'll recognize it and I'll figure it out. Otherwise I'll do dad stuff. I got pages of a honeydew list that has been accumulating all these years. And I used to start knocking them out. Like, you know, I kept looking at my face board for all these years. My wife kept saying something. I'm like, you know what? I'm going to knock this face board out. I could hire someone, but it's going to keep me busy for a while. Yeah. Good on you. So, okay. So we've got Twan's backstory, which I appreciate because I've known you from a distance, not

[00:19:03] up close, but I kind of, kind of lines up with what I know about you. And I knew about Dental Maverick. I know a lot of people that were helped by it. Now, what's interesting is we're going to move into what you're up to now, but I am curious about what has your experience been? I mean, you, you now have an AI product. We're not going to talk about it quite yet. I want, I want to know, I mean, AI became kind of mainstream usable in about 2023 when chat GPT came out. That's, that's my understanding. Maybe, maybe you were more on top of it than I was. I was not.

[00:19:33] So that's kind of when I first learned about it. I didn't really get into it probably till, I don't know, maybe late 2024, 2020. What's your experience with AI been? Where'd you start with this stuff? Well, to be honest, I'm pretty much like you, like it popped on the radar, chat GPT and then crock and then claude. You know, I used it for initially very low level stuff. Like instead of just Google. Yeah. I asked the question. I liked it because they aggregated the data from multiple locations, kind of summarized it. And at the beginning, you know, I still use Google a lot.

[00:20:03] I still do. To some degree, if you want to back up and get more research or just verify things. But hey, I was like you, you know, I took my, put my foot into the pool to see how it went and then, you know, it was interesting, you know, but until I really got to this project, like I didn't delve in as deep as I could have, you know, like I'm an early adopter to some degree, but I'm not the most bleeding edge cutting adopter person. Like iPhone Duo just came out. I'm like, you know what? I'm used to this phone in my hand like this. Yeah. That's a couple grand. I don't need to spend. That's exactly right. Yeah.

[00:20:33] Yeah. So no, no, I was the same thing, but like I use it much more extensively now because I, you know, you create content with it. It can do work for you. Obviously. Yeah. Super funny to me. I literally was listening to a podcast yesterday and it was talking about AI agents. And it's funny because it depends on who's talking about it as to if this is the most ominous, horrible thing that could ever happen or my gosh, this is handy for, for,

[00:20:58] you know, moms that are trying to get, it's very funny how just the topic of AI is so polarized and I will, I don't understand the polarization because I'm like, man, every time I use it for a lot of stuff that just makes my life simpler. Like, you know, I will tell you that I use it mostly for the podcast. This it's so great for like, it just doesn't take me nearly as much time to do the editing as it used to and, and all that stuff. And I, so I think it's kind of wonderful.

[00:21:27] Um, clearly we're in the very, I mean, in 10 years, you and I will listen to this podcast and laugh considering how much will change because it really is changing. And I, I literally dropped a podcast today talking about how many different AI things I've, I'm using and have used. And, and there, there's all this overlap where they're all getting to be more and more capable and all this stuff. And some of the dental ones are, a lot of the dental ones are clinical. Like you've got the over jets and the, and the pearls and the ones that are, they, they

[00:21:56] help you kind of, in a lot of cases, it's more about showing your patients x-rays that are more obvious and stuff like that, which is cool. I will say that the, the charting I've, I've podcasted about this a lot. The charting con using AI for charting is brilliant. And I, I do believe in five years, there will be nothing but AI charting. I mean, I literally went to my, I had a doctor's appointment on Friday and they had me sign a thing cause they're going to literally, they have a, their laptops are all built right in with the charting. And so like, it's brilliant for that. I think it's really good.

[00:22:25] But you are, you have an AI product out there that I'm not super familiar with that, that does some real specific stuff. I am curious about how you, you kind of tell me about, tell me about Maverick AI. Tell me about what you're doing there. Okay, sure. So, so I'll give you a backstory first cause it'll kind of tie everything together. So after I retired, you know, um, one of the things that we wanted to do, uh, part of my enjoyment too, is I've always wanted to learn Italian and like, I want to learn it.

[00:22:52] It's something that I like learning languages and I wanted my kids exposure to other cultures. And we've been a lot of places, but we want to take a big trip. So what we did is after I retired, we took a three month trip to Italy. Like we traveled all through Italy, like entirety. Like it was unbelievable. And I get a call from a guy that I've known for 20 plus years, probably 30 years actually. And he says, Hey man, I know these guys from, from, from school. All the kids go to St. They heard of your name, multiple locations and they want to enter AI dentistry. Do you want to do it? And I'm like, that's an open-ended question. Let me think about it. Yeah.

[00:23:21] That could mean a lot of things. Exactly. I mean, uh, you know what? I've been doing nothing, drinking limoncello all day, limoncello all day. So like, let me think about it. So I did think about it. And, and interestingly enough in Italy, even though the food is fantastic. Yeah. My kids are young. So what do they want to eat? They want to eat McDonald's every day. Yeah. So we go to McDonald's all the time. And like, you know, uh, it's nice because in Europe, you know, there's many languages and not everyone reads Italian.

[00:23:48] So, you know, over there, there's just nothing but kiosks and one person working in the front. It was nice. I was like, this is not AI, but this is solving a lot of problems, a lot of errors. You know, they have someone to talk to that speaks English too. They need to usually in case, uh, something needs to be done. So I was like, you know what? Hey, this sparked something in my mind. I was like, I know the answer to this. What do I deal with every day in dentistry? It's, it's insurance. It's front desk stuff, you know? And then I started deep delving to it. I'm like, you know what? I know what we're going to solve. We're going to solve how we do this entirety process from start to finish.

[00:24:18] Like in software, there's something called incumbent software, which means like a go-to default software. And I was like, you know what? I think that I can attempt and I will do this to solve this issue and make hopefully an incumbent software that will do the process of insurance from start to finish. Uh, and I say that because, you know, I, I'm a very technical person, but, uh, I'm a human. I, I'm prone to errors, you know, like, you know, you think an Asian guy would be extremely good at math. If I do any math, yeah, even simple math. It's like, it reminds me of going back to grade school.

[00:24:48] I do a test and what do I do? I double and triple check my math. Because humans, yeah, exactly. Because humans make mistakes like that. Yeah. So, you know, we don't intend to make mistakes, but math is a technical thing. You know, it's a logistical process that you have to be very detail oriented. And I find that. You already know Crazy Dental has practically unbeatable prices on everyday dental supplies. But how do we make that deal even sweeter? Free shipping. Jump over to crazydentalprices.com, fill your cart and enter promo code VERYSHIP, all one word, at checkout.

[00:25:17] That's VERYSHIP, all one word, to wipe out shipping costs on every single order. Even better, using that code directly supports the Very Dental Podcast Network. Stock up, pocket the savings, get free delivery, and help back the show. Use VERYSHIP, all one word, today. And I knew, not I find, I knew that in my office, you know, I had three full-time employees focused on doing this with one kind of in the corner, just plugging away insurance all day.

[00:25:44] It's just interesting enough, as I did this, you ran the numbers and you'd be blown away about what it actually cost you for your office to do all day. No, I get it. I get it. It's great because the insurance companies are there doing their thing. And you basically hire an employee for the insurance company or multiple employees. Because, you know, they're there, but, like, your office kind of runs on that. And even if you're a fee-for-service office, no one comes in your office, you know, with insurance and says, nah, I just won't use it. That doesn't happen.

[00:26:14] So the reality is, no matter what kind of office you have, you're probably going to be dealing with insurance in some way or another. And, yeah, and it's, and you've got an employee that's doing that. Exactly. Yes. Like, one was sitting in the corner, literally in the corner, not really talking to patients, doing this all day. And it's, it's, you know, what you find is, like, no one make, intends to make the error, but they make errors. And just like doing a remake for something that you didn't do well enough for your patient, a remake, a redo, verification of the benefits in dentistry is very expensive.

[00:26:41] You know, until I did this, if you break down the time that it actually cost to package a whole claim from start to finish, you'd be surprised at how much time it is. It's almost 50 minutes if you break down the prep time, time on hold, being on the phone if you use it, or portals, you know, jotting down that data, translating that data, following the doctor up to get the narrative or the chart notes so the narrative can be created. Creating the photos and x-rays for the claim, pasting it, follow up, you know, reconciling it. It's crazy.

[00:27:08] If you really add it up, it's literally one of the worst things, one of the worst things in my day, one of the worst things in my day is if, if my front desk comes and asks me for a narrative, I'm just like, oh, come on. Yeah. The reality is I actually use, I use AI a lot of times to help write a good narrative, but I still have to sit there and I have to give it a prompt. I have to give it all that stuff. The reality is the narratives are, my, my front desk has mentioned it to me over the last year.

[00:27:34] Almost everything's asking for a narrative now, even the, even the basic stuff that they didn't use to ask for now. So that is, and I believe that because they're using AI on their end as well. So I think that this is sort of, this is, it's, it's, uh, fighting fire with fire a little bit, but I'm sorry. Go ahead. Keep going. No, no, no. I was going to say like, you know, it makes sense. You know, the name of the game on the insurance industry is to today delay or deny claims. The longer they could hold your money, the longer they grow interest on the bank and the more they make revenue.

[00:28:02] So it's to their, uh, success that they, uh, hide the data, make it difficult to obtain. Yes. Make it lengthy. So whatever we can do to reduce that is to the benefit of the doctor on the doctor side. You know, it's just the name of the game. I understand what they're doing. We all understand. We don't want it, but you know, if we ran insurance companies, we probably to some degree play within the rules and the laws that the government allow us to, to the data, you know, that's just the way it is. So, uh, you know, if we can create something that reduces that time, free up people, get more

[00:28:31] correct data, less errors, then it's just the benefit of everybody. You know? Yeah, for sure. So what, if I, if I'm, if I sit down and I'm using Maverick AI, what, what does it look like on my computer? What does it do for me? And what does it, how does it free me up from doing that stuff? So right now we work natively with OpenNail, which means we can read and write to the program natively. Um, we're about to, we're scoping out, we're about to enter our process with Dentrix and Eaglesoft. But, uh, for right now we work exclusively with OpenNail and all the others.

[00:29:01] Once we solve it for Dentrix, it just opens up to everyone else. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I get it. I get it. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, OpenDental is easy because they were originally open source. They're a little more closed now, but they have full read and write, which means that, uh, for someone that doesn't understand it, it allows us to read OpenDental completely and then write back to the program natively into the chart, the ledger, whatever we need to do. For example, other companies, they're more restrictive. A lot of them have easy read, which means you can read the data easily, but they restrict the right.

[00:29:30] My guess is either someone that pays enough or they open it up, probably someone that pays enough or is big enough. Or obviously they own a portion of it. Yeah. But they make the right difficult. So we figured out a workaround. A lot of companies have, but that's, that's, you know, that, that's the difference between. But for OpenDental, we're native. It's very easy. It's a very cleanly written program. And I suggest that anyone looking into dentistry should use OpenDental because there's a lot of integration with everything. It's a very good program to use. It's low in resources, low in processing power of your computers, everything.

[00:30:00] So for someone that uses OpenDental, we, you know, once you sign up and it's really easy, you just obviously put your credit card in, you give us all your information, your NPI, everything. And then we register you, we get you an API key. It puts the, it's very 10 seconds, 20 seconds to put the API key into your OpenDental and it arouse our backend to read from your software. And so for me, a little side story is part of the reason that I quit dentistry and not

[00:30:27] the exact reason, but a contributing factor that pushed me kind of to the edge and over was I had a string of three employees in the front desk that I just didn't like enough. Like I'm real detailed. I'm real specific of what I want. And for many people, they would have thought they're probably great. But for me, I was like, eh, it's just not good enough. And when you have a sequence of events, when it's one, two, three in a row, you're just like, why am I dealing with this if I don't have to? So for me, that was kind of something, not a major factor, but a minor contributing factor

[00:30:55] that pushed me over to just exit and do, and go to Italy and then eventually do this. Yeah. Yeah. Unexpectedly. But for someone that works with OpenDental, you know, you'll use your OpenDental just as normal. We can read and write to your program, but we also have a portal for people that like that because I found that people are in transition. Some people like working exclusively OpenDental. Some people like using a portal. It depends on who you are. But basically, for example, we go to three phases and I kind of split the phases up. First is just entrance verification. You know, traditionally, if you want to get someone on the schedule, what do you do?

[00:31:24] Someone schedules a new appointment. What do you do? They call you, you gather the information data, you write it down by hand or notes or whatever, a text notepad on your computer or whatever. And then you research it later. You find, in the meantime, you find an appointment tight and you say to the patient, hey, we're going to call you back to confirm once we confirm your entrance to verify this appointment. And then what do you do? You get off the phone and you call. Well, what happens here? Well, that's a lot of wasted time, you know? It sure is. You got an appointment on the schedule. If you get the data wrong for the entrance, then what do you do?

[00:31:54] You try to reach the patient again. If you can't reach them again, what happens? You eat the appointment time or double book, you know? And then even if you get the data correct, you're spending 20 to 30 minutes if you're on hold or more. And then you get the data. You try to reach the patient. If you can't confirm the appointment, it's the same thing. Either you eat the appointment or you double book. So first of all, we change the workflow. The workflow is the patient's on the phone. You get the entrance. If it's in the schedule already, we automatically read it. Or some people prefer, we built this because some people prefer it.

[00:32:23] There's just a little applet that you can put the information in, verify instantaneously their benefits. And if they do, if you're smart, like I would say you should do, it'd be, hey, we just instantly verified your insurance. Hey, let's find a time that works well for intervening it for you. And let's, in our office, it's a policy to take a deposit. So if you took a deposit now, you locked it in, just like a hotel. Sure, someone could still cancel or no show, but the probability is lower. So now you saved all your time, you compressed all this time into follow-ups, trying to reach

[00:32:52] them, email, multiple calls afterwards into this couple minute call. And first of all, you solved that major issue. That saves you a ton of time, saves you a ton of lost costs. You know, I ran a fee-for-service out of network office, so I would always eat the time if we couldn't confirm it. Oh, I get it. I get it. Yeah. You know, for customer satisfaction, if they did show up, you know, which was, you know, statistically less likely if you couldn't confirm them. So, you know, that's what I did, but I ate a lot of costs, you know, and it was a big waste of time, of open time. So that's the first step.

[00:33:21] The second step is after the appointment's done. This goes in the AI narration and stuff like that. But like, you know, I'm trying to reduce like doctor follow-up for narrative. So in Open Dental, once you complete the, yeah, once you complete the chart note, you know, like, you know, once the chart note's completed, what the program does is it automatically reads your chart notes, pulls the appropriate data from it. Like we've educated train, you know, we have to be careful about using the word train because, you know, train can be misconstrued when it comes to AI. No, I get it.

[00:33:49] But you want to make sure that the chart note covers the things that you're going to need for the insurance stuff. And it's not that they're faking a chart note. It's just that they're making sure that knowing that the software is going to read that chart note. I get it. Well, you bring up a good point. AI can actually fake because it's predictive. It can fake data if you don't give it good boundaries. Exactly. That's a concern, obviously. Yeah. It is. It is. So, you know, with AI, that's why we get careful what we say. Have I trained it? No, you've given it parameters.

[00:34:15] Like we fed it tons of factual data about what insurance companies expect for each claim, all the codes, 800 codes or whatever it is. We fed it all the data about what the parameters should be to get maximum acceptance. So it knows the boundaries. And then it pulls, it doesn't make fake data. It pulls from your chart notes. It starts with the facts with the chart notes. So it's all correct information, but it pulls that data. So it knows how to lead with the most powerful information that leads to maximum success. And then as with everything, you know, we find this is interesting.

[00:34:43] Some people want automation where over time we're building it out or we just haven't enabled the button because it's still some people. But like some people want pure automation where it just does it from start to finish without looking at it. But most people I find are still in a transition phase where they want to review it just for a split second. So we have that option. We're about to enable full automation, but most people still want to click. And it's actually interesting. I think there's a little wisdom in it at least while you're first using it to really know what it's doing. Yeah, because you should. I think it builds confidence.

[00:35:10] And interestingly enough, there's a lot of projected future laws coming out where they want human attestation of what you do. I get it. They want to verify it. And actually, interestingly enough, we built this into our system. We haven't enabled it either. But if laws occur and if it does become a requirement, I have the ability where we have a public ledger that writes on the Ethereum blockchain that will just show that a human verified this. So it's not enabled yet, but it's something that we will offer. That's an interesting thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:39] So it's really cool because the human component is never going to be left out of this. I still think we need humans. We need humans to verify everything just before we do everything because, you know, I don't want to terminate a world yet. Maybe we'll get adapted. No, but we're not there yet. But the reality is, is that anyone who's worked with insurance knows that there's a lot of time. I mean, as we said, you know, there's, you literally have employee or employees in your office where that's pretty much what they do.

[00:36:05] And like, this is sort of taking back some of that time, it sounds like for them. Absolutely. You know, we're talking about breakdown, you know, impactful things. Like before I started this whole process and procedure of doing this, I didn't realize how much time it takes from start to finish on average to do this. You know, if you package everything up from verifications and reconciliation of your EOBs and ERAs or EFT payments, it's almost 15 minutes per person. Okay. It's insane. And then on my office, I had three full-time employees and I paid them well.

[00:36:33] That was over $180,000 per year just to do all this. One of them is in the corner. I can easily eliminate a position here because it wasn't even customer related. So, you know, going back to the thing, once you write your chart note, the program compiles all this data, creates the narrative for you to review. You can, we have unlimited claims. We work with Vine. That's our background. We're official partners with them. You have unlimited claims, attachments, so you could send your client.

[00:36:59] And then the next part is RCM, for people who don't know what that means, is revenue cycle management. Acceptance and stuff like that. Fair. Got it. Traditionally, what do we do? We go into Open Dental or whatever program you use, run the manual report, look at the print it out, look at the manual report, highlight the ones that you follow up on, make sure you tell your front desk to do it. And if they don't do it, then your AR piles up, you know? Yep. So this is all automated. What we do is we have it running automated. It runs it continuously.

[00:37:26] It pulls our clearinghouse all the time to see if an age of rejection or acceptance occurs. If it's a rejection, we flag you right away. We're going to, we're about to add automation very soon. We're just auto using AI, read the narrative, figure out what's wrong if it can and just redo it. But right now we still want, we still have human involvement to some degree because people still prefer that. Yeah. It's different. Everyone's in transition. Some people are putting their foot in AI, but they still want some control. Some people are more progressive, just like you asking me how I got into it.

[00:37:54] And if I use Claude or Grok or whatever back in the day or GBT, everyone's different. So we're putting all those variations. Everyone has a certain level of comfort with how much, how much it can be done. What's nice is it sounds like you're easing into it with the idea that eventually it'll be more automated, particularly when people have used it and have come to trust it and that sort of thing. Yeah, absolutely. And so with this portion, we automate it and then it's nice. You know, if you, we don't have that human involvement in running the reports, we reduce

[00:38:22] the stress management of your doctor or owner coming down your back all the time to deal with this. And that's stressful for everyone. And the nice thing about this is with, with automation, you know, uh, everyone, or hopefully everyone has recognized, but Delta, for example, in 2027 in January, they're transitioning everyone to a $15 per week charge to get paper checks. And, you know, every other insurance company is going to be watching. They're going to be like, Ooh, Delta is making this extra income 15. Uh, you know, like, like, uh, we'll start adding on. It's like toll roads in my town.

[00:38:50] They started at 50 cents, but now after three years, it's a dollar 50 or something like that. You know? Yeah. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. We'll start with 15 before, you know, people are paying 30 per week or something like that. So it's going to add up and paper checks, you know, 61% David Harris of prosperity. It says, I think it's like the stat is like 60% or 60 something percent of offices of embezzlement in their, in their lifetime. You know, it's because you can intercept paper checks with automation and using EFTs, which we're transitioning to, which is free. The ability to be fraud is much less like, you know, it's interesting.

[00:39:20] Like, you know, like I, I'm a dentist and I hate, like, I know what dentists hate. We hate annual contracts unless there's a discount if we like it. We like monthly contracts to get out of any time with easy clauses. And we like flat fees instead of percent health charges. You know, there's some companies that do a lot of things, but they'll charge X percentage of your, your collections. I hate that. I hate it. Yeah. So everything we do here is going to be a flat charge. And for me, you know, you can do incident verification, entrance, flat charge, all inclusive, following

[00:39:48] unlimited claims, and then reconciliation of your EFTs, your payments with no percentile charges. I could get real nerdy about this, but once you get paid, our software pulls for it. It reads the data coming in. You can't intercept that data. Okay. We don't have access to your bank account. So it's just reading the data and then we know exactly what, why, when was done for what amount. And it writes to open dental ledger, uh, accurately. You can review it. Uh, but like I said, some people want automation. So we're going to add automation where it just does it automatically without reviewing. But yeah, it's all native. It's fantastic.

[00:40:18] And then, then you could just think of the time that you've saved, you know, our data shows that, you know, from everything, packaging a claim from start to finish with the entrance and everything is almost 15 minutes a person after using AI and automation, you break it down to about 10 minutes, less than 10 minutes, you know? And so you save about 80% of the time, you know, and if you add that up, it's huge. Like, and people like, you know, it's so interesting. I'm on a tangent now, but like, so when we started this, we had all these beta offices

[00:40:47] and we got a lot through Gentiltown. It was very interesting. Uh, but for example, I, at one point I started, uh, we'll just give a reference, but I remember at one point we had about 12 beta offices. Okay. Okay. And I found three of the 12 would not give us data or very limited. And then we found out why it was the front desk blocking the usage of it or downplaying what this could do. And then I had to bypass them and go to the doctor. The doctors were very interested. Well, I was like, Hey man, you know, uh, what's going on here? Do you have any questions? Can I solve it for you?

[00:41:17] You know what we found out of those three offices? And we find this very true also, cause we're on Facebook groups. I see it too, but like, they're all afraid of losing their jobs. Yeah. Cause, cause you're doing stuff that they, that they do. Exactly. So, you know, like now, now to clarify, let's say for example, you have a, the higher your volume, your office and the more people you have dedicated to insurance and maybe the remote are just sitting in the corner, not talking to patients. Yes.

[00:41:43] To some degree, those types of people may lose their job because you're freeing up a lot of time, but most of us in smaller offices, you know, if you have one or two front desk, you're not dedicating your whole life to just entrance. What are you doing? You're checking in patients. You're talking and you're doing. Well, it's more FaceTime. It's more the valuable stuff. It's more FaceTime. I totally agree. Exactly. You're saying valuable stuff. So what's happening, what happens is actually in those offices where most people do multiple jobs, you're not losing your job. You're not worried about your job. You shouldn't be, but you're freeing up your time.

[00:42:12] If I could save you 40 minutes per patient on aggregate from doing all this, what happens? Well, you got 40 times how many extra patients a day. What could you be doing that's more interesting? I believe that most people that sign up for a front desk position for like that, they like talking. They like talking enough that they want a job that's face to face with people. So what do you do now? You free up your time. You free up your time. So let's think of a classic scenario. A classic scenario is someone comes up to the front desk after they've seen the hygiene or whatever.

[00:42:41] And let's say they get recommended three fillings, right? Traditionally in high volume offices are we're short on time. Hey, doctor recommended three fillings. Would you like to schedule? No. Okay. How about we call you in a week and we follow up, right? Yeah. So what just happened here? You didn't capture the patient for scheduling. You didn't get them on schedule. And now you've created more work for your future self because you have to follow up on the patient. Yeah. Because why? You're short on time. So let's say we just have 40 minutes per patient. Let's say I'm going to be very conservative.

[00:43:09] And let's just say you have two extra minutes per patient for some reason as they check out in the front. That's real conservative. If that's the case, what do you do with these two minutes? Well, most, most front desk people know, and this is in my training too with the dental Maverick originally. They don't realize, front desk don't realize that they're like a superhuman. Okay. What I say is they have superpowers to get patients to accept treatment. It's very weird. Like if I go to a restaurant, it could be a fancy, it could be non-fancy, but why do we always ask this silly question to the waiter? What do you recommend?

[00:43:38] But if you look at the waiter, I'm like, I don't know anything about you. You know, like, like you got a nose ring, you got an Austin that's caught, you know? Yeah. Like, I don't know if you like food. Why am I asking you this question? But when they answer that question, it sways us automatically. Absolutely. Because our brains are perfect. Because they're in the know. Yeah. Yeah. So it's the same thing. It's like most people don't realize that a front desk position, when patients ask these questions, they're almost there, but they're asking to qualify their decision. They want to feel emotionally correct in their decision.

[00:44:07] So if you had another minute or two, instead of saying, oh, do you want to schedule? If not, we'll follow up with you. You just talk about the procedure, use social proof. You'll be like, yeah, Dr. Smith, you should recommend three fillings for you. And we find that, you know, you should do it now because if you don't, what happens is mother nature eventually is going to knock on your door. And then it hurts. And then as you're doing this, you write down, hey, instead of a filling, now you're going to a crown or root canal on top of that. Write that number down, circle it. And now relatively, and this is Cialdini's principles of persuasion. You all know that if you know.

[00:44:36] But you look at that, now it's the same number that was recommended at first. But now instead, you see this after insurance coverage of a filling is peanuts compared to this root canal crown. And you're like, oh, of course, I need to do this now. And the more times they hear it from more people in the office, frankly, like I like having my other team members explain what I explain because they'll explain it a little bit different.

[00:45:02] A lot of times, honestly, there's sometimes because I work with women that it comes out differently from a woman or maybe they trust this person more or they just want to have, they want to hear the same thing. I get it. And you're creating time for them with all this stuff. I am curious. So we've been going for a little while. If someone wants to know more about Maverick AI, what's the best way for them to find out about it? It's just the website, dentalmaverick.ai. That's the hottest domain right now.

[00:45:31] Dot AI. There it is. Dentalmaverick.ai. OK. That's it. So we'll make sure that's in the show notes. And then honestly, if you have any questions, I'm pretty sure we can get our hands on Tuan to ask them too. So I read every single email. I read every single customer. I'm dragging you into our comments. I have a little Facebook group. I'm not a big Facebook group. It's a lot less of a shit show in our Facebook group too. But I'll drag you in there so people have questions. Sure. Because this sounds like, I have to tell you, you're pretty early in this space. Does that worry you at all?

[00:46:01] In other words, people are going to see what you're doing and go, uh-huh-huh. We need to. So at this point, I feel like you're kind of early in on this deal. And there's a lot of ways to jump in and copy. Sure. Well, I'll tell you a couple of things. One, uh, early is relative, you know, and you'll find out. Someone wants to jump into this. You'll find out how archaic dentistry is in terms of developer access and software. It is absolutely archaic. And you'll have to learn everything over. Yeah.

[00:46:30] So it's not as easy as you think, okay? Not as easy. That's true. And the barrier for that is time and cost. There's a lot of cost and time and barrier to figure this out. AI does make it easier, but unfortunately, it's just the way it is. To get real nerdy, like the transmission standard for clearinghouses is called X-FIL. That was actually created in the late 70s. Yeah. So it was created for medical. So everything has been piled on. So it's actually a little complicated, but besides that, you know, dentists are creatures of habits. Okay. Yeah. I like to do the same thing. Uh, my wife finds it funny.

[00:47:00] I like to eat the sandwich for lunch. I like to make breakfast a certain way. And I like it in my schedules off track from what I do. And so I'm not worried, you know, being early, not being first, but being early is nice. You know, when someone uses our software, they'll probably like it. And because we're a smaller company, we're not big, like we're not owned by Shine or anything like that. It's actually really cool. You get direct access to developers, myself, our product manager. So we're actually really fast with feedback.

[00:47:26] You want a feature, you want something, a lot of things we can enable within 24 to 48 hours max. That's amazing. But I read every single email and feedback that comes. And if I can't handle it or I don't know it, I pass it to my product manager or someone can do it. But the point I'm getting to is, you know, because we're responsive, if someone uses us, I'm almost highly certain that you're going to like what we do. Because you like what we do, you're a dentist. You're probably not going to change. Here's another tangent. You know, as a dentist, I understand what people like. We don't like annual contracts. We want percentage charges.

[00:47:56] And I'm a nerd. I told you that. So one of the things I'm modeling myself after is if you ever read about the story of Square, you know, the credit card process. Yeah. Yep. They're very fascinating. They entered a huge new market that was untapped because the credit card companies had a monopoly on things and they didn't service mom and pop smaller companies because there was a lot of risk. So Square had to analyze the risk, create their own risk, accept the risk and create the ability for people to process without historical data of anything to do this.

[00:48:25] So they basically opened up this huge triangular base. If you think of a triangle to a marketplace. And that's part of my philosophy too. I price things as low as we can so that we can keep a standardized price, lower price, flat price, no onboarding charges like some companies, no percentile charges. And because the price is low enough to do multitudes of things that overlap, do more than a lot of other companies. Hopefully a lot of dentists will say, you know what? This is not a big risk for me.

[00:48:53] It's only $6.79 a month and I get to do every single thing here, no percentage charges. I'm going to try it. If I don't like it, I can exit before it's too early or too late. So that's my goal. It's my personal mission because I think most dentists, including myself, I hate to say it, before I retired, I was very archaic in Stone Age and how I did things. We did some portal access, but my staff, because they've been with me for a very long time, were used to phone calls and they would sit on phone calls all day. If you got disconnected or hung up, that 20 minutes is now 40, 50 minutes. Yeah, it's gone. Yeah, exactly.

[00:49:23] So my goal is to price it low so that everyone tries it or gives it a chance. And I'll pull you out of Stone Age into the automation at AI age. And everything, you know, AI, like you said, is just in the infantile. It is. Everything we're doing now, you build it from the bottom up. You build it to work as a software, then you layer the agentic stuff on top of that. We have a lot of stuff coming on. But it's going to be fascinating. We're going to, I can't even imagine, fathom what AI, well, I can.

[00:49:51] Of course, I like to read, you know, five years, 10 years from now, what we can do. But yeah, that's my goal. It's to drag most dentists out of these arcade processes. You know, we're creatures of habit, so I know how difficult it is. So you have to make it enticing for someone to want to make a change. But once you make a change, you know, you'll see that you free up so much time. Like, you know, I think about it myself. Like, if my office just had more time, and actually we did because I was a very slow-paced office. But for the average office, if you free up more time and they just had more time to explain,

[00:50:20] the probability of treatment plan acceptance just automatically skyrockets. And, you know, like, you know, you know how schedules are, you know, usually it's on the hour every 30 minutes where people start coming up. So, you know, unless you have over at accommodation of the front desk to see all these patients as they come up, you really need to free that time up to some degree. And if they do, the treatment plan acceptance just goes up and it's a win-win. You know, dentistry or anything, like people often say, I don't like the term sales. I don't want to be salesy. But no, it's not salesy.

[00:50:48] If people come to your office, we're a health profession. People come in, most people have a medical condition. They have caries, they have cavities on their teeth. Now, we're not talking about doing veneers or aesthetic things that are optional, but most people come in and they have functional issues. So, it's a lose situation if the patient doesn't accept because, for example, they don't feel pain. It's a win-win if you can have the patient accept the treatment.

[00:51:12] It's a win for you to build production, pay your staff, but it's a win for the patients because they will address that in an earlier stage, hopefully before it hurts. And if after it hurts, obviously we all know it costs more. There's more damage to your tooth and more tooth loss or irreversible issues. So, it's a win-win. We have to do sales, but we have to do ethical sales. And if we free up time, the ability to do that increases. No need for any pressure, fear of missing out, you know, FOMO, high-pressure sales, none of that stuff.

[00:51:43] That's the goal. That's fantastic. Twan, this was really good. I feel like we could talk about this more. I'm interested to see what kind of questions listeners come up with. I'll make sure you get them. Yeah. Thanks a ton for your time, man. This was fantastic. Yeah. And we'll catch you another time. All right, sir. Thank you for the invite. I appreciate it. And I've always wanted to say this. I've listened to your podcast, but you have like the best podcast voice. Thank you. I wish I could take credit for it. I'm afraid that it's all genetics. Thanks a ton, Twan. This was awesome. We'll catch you next time.

[00:52:14] Thank you.