Very Dental: DSOs Defined with Brian Colao

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, Very Clinical listeners, are you ready to add implants to your practice?

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Feeling overwhelmed by the procedure? Not sure where to get training?

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we have an answer for you. Join our very own Dr. Kevin Friar in beautiful Raleigh,

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_01]: North Carolina this November 4th through 8th for a week of didactic and hands-on training

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_01]: for dental implants that will get you ready to start placing them on your own patients when

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_01]: you return home. 3D Dentists is the best place to learn guided implant surgery. The didactic

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: portion will teach you atraumatic extractions and predictable grafting techniques using PRF,

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_01]: guided implant surgery basics and even a restorative portion designed to offer your

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_01]: patients the most efficient and predictable way to replace a tooth. This all takes place

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: at the amazing 3D Retreat and Learning Center and live surgeries take place at the wonderful

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and modern Smile 3D Clinic where you'll place implants on deserving patients from

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: the greater Raleigh area. Don't miss this opportunity to add a valuable procedure to

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: a procedure your patients want. Go to 3ddentists.com and reserve your spot today.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_01]: That's www.3ddentist.com. This is a production of the Very Dental Podcast Network.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, hello, Very Dental people. Welcome to another episode of the Very Dental Podcast.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Today I'm throwing back, I'm throwing back to an episode recorded with Jason as the dental

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually just going to throw the entire episode in here so you hear the old theme music.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Today is the Thursday of Fair Week, so this is going out Friday of Fair Week. Fair Week

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_01]: for the Mead family is a very busy one. It takes up kind of all of our time thus I

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_01]: did not, I'm not editing anything new for this week, I apologize. Good episode though,

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: really good episode. We're interviewing Brian Coleo and he's from Dicama who's a,

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: he works with a bunch of different DSOs. And we basically grill him about what a DSO is.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a little bit older episode but what's kind of cool is I think we all know a little bit

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: more and know people who have dealt with DSOs now, maybe more so than when we recorded this

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: episode. So it's pretty cool. It actually holds up and it's very interesting. So basically

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Brian explains what a DSO is, what it can do for you and what it's doing to our profession,

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_01]: to have DSOs being a bigger player in the space. So I think you're going to enjoy this,

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_01]: again, a classic dental hacks episode so you get Jason and I bantering back and forth for

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: whole nine yards. I hope you enjoy it and we'll catch you next week.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: This is the Dental Hacks Podcast, a podcast created by dentists

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_01]: for dentists. Now sit back, relax, you're about to be hacked.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Dental Hacks Nation, welcome to episode 280. That's 280, 280 of the Dental Hacks Podcast.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: My name is Alan Mead. Hey, I'm J Lipson, you're FN Dial in the morning.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: 280 episodes. Can you believe that? How can that possibly be?

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. I'm not asking a lot of questions.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I know. Someone is. Someone is.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Not just my mom. Just saying. She's an avid listener. She doesn't like all the cursing but

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_01]: besides that, she's a huge listener. She's a big Jason Lipscomb fan actually. You didn't realize that.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I bet she is. Yeah. Who isn't man?

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I know. Your father thought I was a valet when he first met me at the dentistry but-

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. He totally did when dad pulled in and he started busting Jason's chops

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_01]: about being a valet because they literally pulled in. My mom had said what she said,

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_01]: she brought us a really long way from the airport. And the she she was talking about

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Siri. She refers to Siri as a she. That big.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: When you have a relationship, you can call her she. That's all right.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So Jason, I think it's time we talk a little bit about DSOs. It's time we talk about corporate

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_01]: dentistry. Right now? Right this very second. No, obviously our guest is a-

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_01]: we talked a lot about DSOs with him but I want to talk to you about it because

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_01]: like he of course knows a lot about DSOs because he's in the DSO business and I feel like I

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: feel like I know more for talking with him but so much of what people talk about corporate

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_01]: dentistry and all that stuff I think is- I'm not sure that we know all we think we know

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: about that stuff. What's your experience been with DSOs in your area? Do you know what

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_03]: practices are DSOs and what practices aren't DSOs? Previously when I was in Fredericksburg,

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_03]: there was a large group that started that came down from Northern Virginia and they had

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_03]: probably six or seven offices in the area and of course all the local dentists were in a

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Twitter because they had come but after they'd been there a while it was kind of

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_03]: businesses as usual. It didn't really affect anybody all that much. Later they sold to

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Heartland. Were they branded a certain way? In other words, did they have like-

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_01]: logo and all that stuff or were they just offices that were owned by or run by a

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: certain organization? Did they have a giant Aspen site? Okay, so Aspen is a DSO and

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Aspen brands the same everywhere they go. You see the big Aspen logo but that's not-

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_01]: as you'll hear in our interview, that's definitely not all DSOs. There's quite a few

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_01]: offices that are owned or run by a DSO that are Mead Family Dental or Brush Up Dental or

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_01]: they don't change their branding necessarily. They just manage differently.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it was Neibauer Dental and then Neibauer Denticare and then they got bought out by

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Heartland and they stayed Neibauer however you say it. Okay. I know down here in Richmond we

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_03]: didn't have that many- there used to be a couple Aspen dentals around but they weren't

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_03]: a whole bunch. Now they're opening several here just recently. Okay. And then I know there's a

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_03]: couple around that are Heartland dental but they are branded independently that you would

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_03]: know they were Heartland. Right, right. Then we had another group locally that used to be the

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Perkinson group and that was one guy that started and branched out and had several offices

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_03]: and now they've changed their branding recently because he kind of retired or

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_03]: lost control of it. He was in his contract at a certain age. Sure. He was going to

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_03]: deviate up but they've changed their branding to Virginia Family Dentistry.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. So I don't know why but yeah. I think that there are some practices around me.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if they're Heartland practices but I think there are some DSO-owned or run practices

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_01]: that did not change their branding when they were bought. So and frankly, I mean I'm not-

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have my pulse completely or my finger completely on the pulse here but

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. I mean I'm not sure that you'd know from the outside that it's being

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_01]: run by a DSO. On some level this is- it's the management company. It's how it's being

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: run. Not so much the way- not necessarily the way that they're branding stuff and I think that

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: that's maybe something that people assume that it's you know they're going to have a big neon

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: sign that has a name that you're familiar with and that's not necessarily the case it sounds

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_03]: like. Several local dentists near me had joined a group. I'm not really sure how it's structured.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_03]: I know it was coming from the Virginia Beach area but probably about 50 or 60 of the offices

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_03]: around us have joined this group. It's run and governed by an attorney. They're supposed

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_03]: to get better reimbursement for- from insurances. I've heard that they don't.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_03]: They're supposed to get better deals on equipment and supplies. I think they're

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_03]: running it through Benco. I have- I don't know if they've- if they're really getting

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_03]: great deals. And then also they get first dibs if anybody retires or sells them right. That's the

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_03]: group gets first dibs on that and the only reason I knew that is because I was working

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_03]: at that with that dentist that passed away suddenly. Oh that's right yeah. He was part of

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_03]: the group and I didn't really have a good- I didn't have a crack at the at the ownership

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_01]: after it kind of gone through their pipeline. Sure sure. So what's interesting about it is-

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_01]: okay so I feel like one of the big advantages to being part of a DSO and just I'm going to

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_01]: just throw out- Brian gives this definition right in our podcast and I'm going to do it

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_01]: word for word. A DSO is an entity that provides non-clinical administrative support services

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to a dental practice that is owned by a licensed dentist. So I mean that's very

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_01]: specific. He gives that right in the podcast and there's some huge advantages not the least of

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: which is I'm a terrible manager. I'm just freaking awful at it. I'm terrible at managing

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_01]: employees. I'm not- I don't keep an eye on the numbers like I should all that stuff. The reality

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_01]: is is that being a clinical dentist you know for some people maybe it's easy to do that but

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_01]: that's about all I- you know it's- that's a plenty big job for me and so like managing

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_01]: the business side of it is something that's sort of forced upon me because I'm a practice owner.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So clearly there's a lot of room for a practice like mine to be run a hell of a lot better.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean so- I mean and I look at that and I think you know that's an advantage.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of times people push past that and say okay ethically if it's business first

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_01]: then maybe you're not going to be looking out for the patients but I don't think that-

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that- I don't think a DSO is by definition that way. I know that everyone's

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_01]: heard stories about oh the you know the office manager runs the treatment plans and blah blah

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_01]: blah. I'm sure that probably happens but I don't think that's- I don't think it's by definition

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: what a DSO does. I feel like- and I feel like you know I know I'm not a great manager. I

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_01]: don't really want to be a great manager and so on some level there's a lot of room for

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_01]: my practice to be like managed better and I feel like that's where a DSO can really shine

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_03]: through don't you think? Yeah and I put this up in the group the other day that

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_03]: and I've made some comment that a lot of the DSOs are probably managed better than my office is

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_03]: and I know 100% they are and everybody jumped on that saying oh yeah they're just doing it just

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_03]: for the money but let's be honest like 99% of us got into this profession because we can make

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_03]: a good living. Yeah. We don't get into this freaking job so we can make minimum wage and

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_03]: experience the joy of breaking your back every freaking day. Yeah. It's not the effing truth.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. And it pisses me off when people get on their high horse and say that because it's not

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_01]: true. My thing is- my thing is as a coming into it I knew dentistry you can make a good living

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_01]: at it. I didn't know what that means because to be honest Jason a good living that's a

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_01]: range of things you know I'm saying like a good living is a range of things. It's you know

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and so I on some level I see what they're saying. I don't necessarily agree with it but I do.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a sliding scale you can go it's there's the bell curve you can go a lot of different

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_03]: ways in the bell curve. A lot of people are going to try to be ethical and still make

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_03]: a good living at it. Sure sure. And you know it's not necessarily and even the DSOs

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_03]: are not going to try to do that because they know too that they're going to get blasted

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: if they go too far one direction. I think that's I think they they if they don't have

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: that in mind they're going to wish they had that's I think that's true. I think that's real.

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And coming up there are several companies right now that are working on artificial intelligence

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_03]: for DSOs for insurance companies everybody to read x-rays to figure out the bell curve

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_03]: on this amalgam when this amalgam should be replaced and when this carry should be so

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_03]: there's going to be a lot of stuff coming down the pike that's going to be changing a lot.

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah and you can bet your ass dental insurances are going to be running this artificial

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_03]: intelligence wherever they can save a dime or see where you've over treated. They're not going

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_03]: to tell if you've under treated for god but uh no yeah they're not but interestingly though

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_01]: DSOs also are kind of famous for handling data better than a schmuck like me you know

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_01]: what I mean? Like when you have multiple practices kind of grouped together and run

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_01]: under the same roof you get a lot more data and actually then you can actually use that.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're someone smart enough to know how to look at it that data can be kind of valuable too.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Well it's there's tons and tons and tons and tons and tons of low-hanging fruit in the dental

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_03]: office where you could either save money or make more money and it has nothing to do with

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_03]: ethics and probably 99% of the dental practices out there have have that somewhere in their

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_03]: office and if they had the data and were run efficiently they would make more money

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_03]: still practicing with within the realm of what other ethics they are they are comfortable with

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_03]: and either we're either we're lazy like me or ignorant like me like me um or or you know

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_03]: we're not our personalities are not such that are proper to be a manager and put in that

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: position. And I think a lot of people didn't get into dentistry with the idea that they

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: were going to be business people like that was the goal. I mean clearly there are some dentists

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_01]: who really that's what they really love and that's totally cool but I mean a lot of us

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't and so on some level it only makes sense to have some of this. So am I being

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_01]: pro DSO? I don't know. I definitely am not being anti-DSO on some level because as you'll

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: hear in the conversation we have with Brian you know man there's a million different models

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_01]: out there. Probably worth keeping your eyes open towards a lot of that and we actually talk about

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Brian's company is Dykema it's a they essentially help put DSO deals together

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and stuff and they have a big conference every year this year it's July 15th through the 17th

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: he actually invited us so Jason and I we haven't put our travel stuff together but hey maybe I

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_01]: think it'd be a very interesting meeting to go to. Before I talked with him I would not have

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_01]: thought that that was a very interesting meeting to go to and now I'm kind of intrigued. He's

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: too but so what I'm saying is like I know that my practice can be managed so much better you know

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and and and because I'm not all that interested in doing that aspect of it. That's why they buy

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_01]: them yes that's why they buy them because they know that they can do it better they can but

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_01]: the numbers can be bumped just because someone is better at managing it and then there's potential

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_01]: that me as a dentist I can just do dental stuff which is you know that's what I'm

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_03]: that's what I know what to do so. And typically they keep that they keep that original

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_03]: owner if they don't like to lose that original owner so they're not going to come in and

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_03]: expect you to change your ethics overnight. No takes at least three weeks actually. Yeah yeah

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: super obvious that when we're talking to him he's he says yeah there are some deals that they make

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: where you might be able to get out a little sooner but that you can tell that I think the

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_01]: typical one is that the owner sticks around for a while because they want to they want to be

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_03]: able to take all that goodwill from the owner. So I yeah usually they'll be that'll

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_03]: get you for five years and usually that initial DSO that buys it is probably not going

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_03]: to be there at all five years they're probably sell it within two years to somebody else.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah I gotta tell you that this interview was nothing short of fascinating. Brian's a super

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_01]: smart guy and he's the other thing is he's actually really open about stuff for for a

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: lawyer you know we're dentists we're supposed to be really skeptical of lawyers he seems pretty

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: much on the up and up I really enjoy talking to him. Those college stories he told us were

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah all the prison stuff. Brian wow maybe you should have left that out. We're just getting

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: out. This is a this is a good interview I think for the business types that listen to our show

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: or for the people who are even interested or even the people who are who work for a DSO new

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_01]: out of school and they're kind of kind of wanting to see what's going on on the inside.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is a really good interview I'm pretty proud of it. Brian's good guy and like

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I said we may well be showing up in Dallas in July to see what's going on there so

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: why don't you guys sit back and take a listen to Brian Kaleo from Dykema as he keeps

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: us up to speed on DSOs in 2020. That's Brian you're I don't mean to put this the wrong way

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01]: but you're pretty easy. I will take that in the spirit as it's intended exactly.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Dental Hex Nation welcome back to another interview recorded here live at Voices of

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Dentistry 2020. We have wrapped the CE program so now it's I have to say like I didn't know

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: you know the afternoon really yeah come out podcast and I'm like we are in Scottsdale.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't have been surprised if everyone took off but they didn't as you can hear there are

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_01]: people doing this stuff so I'm very excited joining me as always my stalwart companion Dr.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Jason Lipson. Hello. Good how are you? I'm good now we've got a recurring guest someone who

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_01]: we've talked to a lot at the Voices of Dentistry Brian Kaleo of Dykema. I'm here

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_00]: to see you credit is over with so there's no rules that's right when there's CE credit

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_00]: now there's no rules and that's it man and actually gloves are off.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Dykema has been supporting this meeting for years now so thank you for coming.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah it's like yeah it's like this is very cool so uh Brian what is going on in the world

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: of DSOs right now since like since last Voices of Dentistry last January what do we need to

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: know about you're kind of our you're kind of the guy with the finger on the pulse so what do we

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: need to know about that? Yeah no really good question so consolidation is 23 percent of DSO

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_00]: you know DSOs are 23 percent of the market is the way to say it now you know maybe 23 24

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a little disagreement there uh the consolidation is continuing at a very brisk pace

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_00]: it's predicted seven to ten years DSOs will be 80 plus percent of the market so

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: you know that's sort of what we're looking at things that I'm kind of thinking about is

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: if a recession were to hit knock on what it doesn't look like this year but next year

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_00]: or the year after you know what is that going to do to the consolidation

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_00]: you know what might the impact be of some of the alternative models out there that we're

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_00]: seeing because what we do know is not every dentist wants you know wants it to be a foregone

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_00]: conclusion that they're going to have to affiliate with a conventional DSO they want

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_00]: other options yeah and you know a lot of other options are coming into the marketplace right now

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_03]: what's what's the definition of a DSO at that point I know the range and size greatly so I

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_03]: mean is that just considering like a small DSO that's going to take over or I mean a

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: couple good questions there right a DSO can be one office right a DSO is a entity that

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: provides non-clinical administrative support services to a dental practice that's owned

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_00]: by a licensed dentist now I get phone calls all the time from business school graduates hey I just

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_00]: graduated Wharton School I want to join the dental industry and do a DSO and I'm starting

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_00]: with my first practice and to that person they're a one practice DSO I mean sometimes

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_00]: people are like that's stupid how can you have a one practice DSO anytime you have a

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_00]: non-dentist that wants to participate in the industry sure you have a DSO obviously then you

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_00]: have a DSO with a thousand affiliated offices on the other end of the spectrum so you know a DSO

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_00]: the way I think of it is anytime you have an entity that's providing non-clinical support

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_00]: services I don't think of it as you have to have a certain size you have to have that's

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: very interesting amount of offices because that's not true and clarifying and clarifying to say

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: the truth that's really interesting that that I hadn't thought of it that way that's that's

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of so basically it's it's non-clinical not I mean management by a non-clinical

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah you know and you see it like this isn't some like hypothetical like you know dream up

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_00]: you know potential things that could happen but probably aren't going to happen no no that's not

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_00]: what we're doing here I get calls every month from business people you know I just graduated

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: business school in dent dentistry is a hot market I want to start with my first office

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: but I'm not a dentist so I need a DSO and I've got probably I mean just conservatively

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: 15 or 20 clients that consist of some graduate of business school or some other entrepreneur

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that's not a dentist that started with one office that has a one office DSO what why are

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_03]: they attracted to to the industry right now why is why is it considered a hot industry is

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_03]: it is it the ability to they so hot right now so hot right now yeah but it's always been

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_00]: it is hot right now you guys are right but go back to I don't know what you guys were

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: in 2006 and 2007 when the financial markets collapsed and it was really really scary and

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_00]: you know it was looking like you know it was right up there with the great depression that

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_00]: happened in the early 1900s dentistry was thriving I mean I was representing you know

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_00]: dental groups then and continued to do I had partners that went from making you know five

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_00]: six hundred thousand dollars a year to zero business in the next year after the financial

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_00]: collapse and I'm just off you know I don't know you know now I think we got a little respect

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_00]: based on what's been going on in the DSO industry but back in those days they were like who's this

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_00]: guy that represents dental practices whatever I'm like well that's the guy that like still has

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_00]: work right now yeah there's like a recession going on also known as the busy guy running

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_00]: around you know Sue and Dennis under non-competes setting up offices you know dental

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_00]: board complaints you know I'm running around because even though the great recession was

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_00]: going on dental offices were operating almost like recession proof and it was business as usual

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're running around defending dentists and doing deals and things whereas the rest of you

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_00]: know the economy was really really suffering and I think that's where dentistry first caught

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_00]: the attention of all the non-dentist investors and they said wow it was somewhat recession

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: proof and that was at the time that was a big that was easy to see is that what you're

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: in 2006 and everybody's down for the count except those guys standing up over there thriving and oh

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: those are dental offices wow you know that was kind of a little bit I have to say that it adds

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_01]: up though that's about when I first started hearing about this big wave of DSO stuff that's

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_01]: very interesting that's exactly right I didn't put two and two together but that does make sense

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_03]: looking looking back to I know I know the Kennedy's made a lot of money during the great

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_03]: recession and that's how our great depression that's how they made looking back with that

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_03]: was that a time where people should have been investing more in the in the dental market they

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_00]: could have they they didn't have the capital to do so and in fact I think they first took

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_00]: notice of it in 06 or 07 and the proposition at that time with the private equity groups are

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_00]: wow look at that over there if we ever get back on our feet yeah that's where we're headed

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_00]: ironically the calls for me from private equity groups started around 010 so to be truthful it

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: took about three years for them all to get back on their feet and then priority one when they

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_00]: were back in a position to really invest again was dentistry and in 2010 I probably did six

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: major dental deals involving big big big you know giant DSOs because that's when the

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_00]: economy started to recover we weren't 100 out of the woods but the M&A transaction started

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_00]: to pick up again in 2010 where they were almost non-existent in 06 07 08 you know that kind of

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_03]: thing I've heard recently too a lot of people have been talking about a dental bubble

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_03]: obviously if something is really is thriving and growing like that yeah but it's burst a

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: little no no no that's a great I want to talk about that Jason for a second

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_00]: it's burst a little bit already but here's the thing well when we I can't remember the

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: last you know I've been on this show just about every time I've been yep at voices of dentistry

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_00]: but maybe two years ago when we were here and we were probably talking about you know 18 time

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: multiples yeah 16 time multiples it's worth telling this story I'm sorry but I'm gonna

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: cut you out for a second please the first time we had you on you were you and the bulletproof

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: so so people and we were drinking we were drinking and you were having a loud argument

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_01]: actually about something and I handed you guys headsets and said keep talking that's right

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll link to the episode because it's freaking awesome it was a great episode but I literally

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_01]: like interrupted an argument and put headsets on before and you were talking about exactly

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: that the multiples they were it was no that's this multiple no it's this multiple so I was

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_00]: my friend ron d from dental care alliance I hope ron d will listen to this at some point

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: always says that was the greatest podcast she ever heard because she goes you guys were just

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: getting drunk and then they gave you headsets afterwards it's exactly what it was it was

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_01]: podcasting it was exactly what we did we just handed you headphones I love that but but

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: at that time that was the time we were talking about you know 18 multiples 16 multiples

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_00]: 14 multiples you don't see that anymore now nobody that listens needs to panic or anything

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_00]: there's solid returns it's a very very brisk and robust market but I think it has corrected

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_00]: itself a little bit already a lot of that stuff that was going on in 15 16 17 that

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_00]: were really really high oversized multiples you don't see them to the same degree today

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_00]: you know something that might have been a 14 or a 15 is an 11 or 12 or a 10 and believe me that's

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_00]: still a pretty solid return yes but but those that were worried about the bubble as jason why

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_00]: i'm addressing that I think it's already popped a little bit and anybody that follows bubbles

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_00]: knows if the balloon pops when it's maybe half deflated you know the explosion is not nearly

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00]: what it is the thing explodes when it's fully deflated I think we got about half deflated and

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: some air came back out and we're rocking and rolling now as opposed to getting to a full

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_00]: fledge bubble that you know would explode and it would be you know a lot of collateral damage

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_03]: put it that way yeah is that scared off some of the bigger players I mean obviously some of

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_03]: these bigger players if they're not getting a half of percentage point in profit is this

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_03]: what at what point does that kind of shake some of the bigger investors coming into the

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_00]: well you know you got to remember it's a tremendous buying opportunity so it hasn't

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_00]: frightened I mean a lot of the big boys now are re-energized because they were saying we

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_00]: didn't have the appetite for a 14 or a 15 or a 16 but now that these things are going

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_00]: for 10 or 11 hey we got a ball game going here we you know we want to play in that

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_00]: sandbox so I think it's actually stimulated more interest because the higher the multiples

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_00]: were going it was it was discouraging a big a big you know part of the investment

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_00]: community was like we don't have the appetite to yeah that pay that much we don't have it from

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: the outside okay I get it I get it sure I uh I mean how much it's really funny because

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_01]: when we talk to you when we're talking about dsos we're talking about the big picture business

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: uh in big investors coming in and working in the industry but you know when we talk

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_01]: to other people like particularly young dentists or that sort of thing dsos are are the

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: opportunity they're like I mean you can try and find an associateship or you go to a dso which is

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: uh I mean could you paint with a wider brush because I mean there's so many different kinds of

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_01]: of dso type organizations but they are employers in dentistry too in a big way

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's a huge employer what's interesting about it is that's I don't remember it being

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I graduated from the university of Minnesota and there were people that would work at park and

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_01]: metro which are I'm assuming that would be considered dso they were large group practice

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01]: they never called it that when I was in dental school it was no it was just a group

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_01]: of dentists owned group practice but the reality is that's essentially what it is and it's no

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_01]: what it's so they've always been big employers I mean it's always been it's always been a good

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_01]: opportunity for for dentists that didn't have an associateship or they weren't going to

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: a rotation so is that still going to be the the way that it is or are they more looking to

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_01]: buy practices of existing owners I mean I feel like there's always going to be opportunities

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_00]: for new dentists in there is that right yes there always will be opportunities you know

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I think in the next seven to ten years a lot of markets are getting saturated for de novo offices

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: so that's becoming you know there still are some markets you know you could go to a place like

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_00]: where I live Dallas and you know it's going to be hard to open up a lot more de novo's at

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: least in Dallas proper they're expanding north towards Oklahoma and one time we're going to

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_00]: be right on the border of the red river with John Wayne and they're driving the cattle across

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_00]: now there's still nothing there but an Indian casino but now we're soon we're probably going

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_00]: to have dental offices there but in Dallas proper there's not too many opportunities for de

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_00]: novo's you go out to Iowa you can still open some up so okay you know but eventually that's

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_00]: going to become saturated and the acquisitions are going to be really the way you're going to

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_00]: have to do it because there's just markets are going to get saturated and there's not going

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_00]: to be room to open up brand new de novo's so I think acquisitions are a very big part of the

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_00]: marketplace right now but there still is a decent amount of de novo opportunity if we fast forward

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_00]: 10 years from now it's going to be mostly acquisitions just because markets are going to

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: become saturated yeah okay so I want you to put yourself in the position of a dentist

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: who's owned a practice for 22 years it's getting kind of personal isn't it so uh his name is his

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_01]: name is mal indeed like getting emails from potential from literally from group practice

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_01]: buyers I see emails come through I'm not I haven't really paid a lot of attention

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: everybody else gets unsolicited offers that's right that's what we're talking about not even an offer as much as like hey let's have

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_01]: a phone call but but I mean like okay pretend that I'm like yeah this seems like a really

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01]: how do I what's my move how do I do that like when you I who what do I need to know before I have a

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_00]: conversation like that you know I'm saying yes you got to do your homework okay um it's still

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: very much a seller's market so you have options there's not and tell me again al and I forgot

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_00]: what town are you I know I practice in Saginaw Michigan yeah yeah that's we do a lot of

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_00]: deals up there I mean it's not a bad marketplace but here's uh here's the thing it's not like

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_00]: there's one game in town and right when they get around to calling you I got two emails from two

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_01]: separate places last week right and I don't think it's me I think it's I think they're looking for

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_01]: similar practices like me and just kind of finding they are they they bought a list or somehow

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: got a list yeah so it really isn't just me okay I'm sorry about that it doesn't mean there's

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_00]: not an opportunity for you and there is always someone for everyone just you you know you're not

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_00]: just that special yeah we're all special in our own way I know we're about participation trophies

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_00]: these days that's right we're gonna give you your participation trophy for playing but

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_00]: here's the thing um you got to do your homework the good news again is it's not a one

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_00]: you know a one game thing you know only game in town type situation there's a lot

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_00]: in where you are in Michigan it's just a little personalized it to you then we'll move

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_00]: broadly lots of opportunities lots of dsos are doing business up there I could think we're not

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_00]: going to name names on your show but I could think of 10 or 11 dsos that you know that are

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_00]: looking around be looking around up there so you got to do your homework you got to figure

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_00]: out which one is going to be the right fit for you and this is not a knock by the way

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_00]: if I say again we're not going to name names but if I say a certain dso you know is not a

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_00]: little more hands-off others have operations and procedures that might go well with your existing

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_00]: infrastructure others will result in a complete change of your non-clinical function so you got

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_00]: to do your homework and you got to figure out tell me tell me what homework I would do

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not not specifically when you say that I mean how do you how do I research someone how

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_00]: do I find out information about these people the good news is I mean there's a lot of

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_00]: the

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: other conferences meet with these people but honestly we'll go to the daikon

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_00]: moment let's just say I think you should and I think we should have this big podcast out

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: there and uh Charlene's off here she's going to talk to you about that but but but when

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_00]: we're done she's really here but but but you go to the conferences and you know the funny

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_00]: thing is you don't even have to do some type of Jason Bourne James Bond type secret stealthy

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_00]: operation meet with these folks I mentioned my good friend ron d from dental care alliance she's

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_00]: she's one person in that role at dca if you sit down with her and you just say ron d if I

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_00]: affiliated with for example you know dental care alliance tell me what what what would it

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_00]: look like what would the systems be they'll tell you I mean oh I mean these organizations

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_00]: will sit down because they don't want to do something that's not going to be good for them

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00]: either yeah yeah they're gonna sit down and they're gonna tell you and if you're talking

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_00]: to a given organization and you know you don't like what you hear it's okay nobody's gonna have

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_00]: a heart attack you know there's other options and everybody will shake hands and stay in touch

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and maybe some other day you can do something but they'll they'll tell you I mean I'm not

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_00]: you should rely 100% solely on the employees of the various dsos no one should do that you

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_00]: should do your independent independent homework but what I am saying is you could find out

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_00]: probably 75 percent of what you need to know just by talking to the dso itself I mean they're

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_00]: that transparent about what it means to affiliate what software system they're on what their

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_00]: marketing they're building they're collecting looks like what their you know non-clinical

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_00]: business systems looks like what the phone system is going to look like I mean they will tell you

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_00]: all this upfront so you can find out 75 just by going to a conference and just talking

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_01]: you know to the various I have to tell you I just hearing the fact that you can go to

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_01]: a conference and honestly a conference would be a really good thing because it wouldn't

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_01]: you wouldn't be specific to one you know it's not like oh it's not like a weird one-on-one

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_01]: meeting there's a whole bunch of people looking to do the same thing it does make

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_00]: a ton of sense actually and they're all next to each other and you know it's different

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_00]: for different folks you know it's not like some pressure cooked environment like you know

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_00]: you're talking to McDonald's and Burger King is creeping over and it's it's it's you know

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Wendy's is coming over and I'm gonna say McDonald's made me an offer I would sell to them

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if they want to buy your practice in Michigan but but what I'm saying is you

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_00]: know where you had like the coal wars and it was like it's a friendly dental community

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not like if you're over talking to dso number one and then you go to the next

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_00]: next door they're going to be looking at you yeah they expect you to do your homework

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_00]: meet with these folks and and learn about the various platforms because the reality is

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_00]: you know there's not one platform that's going to work for every single seller right some are

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_00]: going to fit better for certain groups and if it turns out that dso abc is not correct for

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_00]: you somebody's going to come over later that it is going to be correct sure and xyz might

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_00]: be the right one for you so 75% of it is just talk to them and learn and gather up and say is

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_00]: this going to be you know a situation after we do the deal that's going to work out for me and

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_00]: it's going to you know be a good situation for me or is it going to be a dramatic change or

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_00]: you know is it going to be you know a situation that's probably not a good fit for me

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_00]: that's number one number two you can go to the various conferences you can talk to

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_00]: people like you know me on my team there's a lot of brokers and i bankers and other folks

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_00]: in the industry that have databases and an enormous amount of information and if you want

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_00]: to say you know hey dso abc you know is talking to me right now what do you know

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00]: just by being in a room like this this is not really a complete dso conference but if

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_00]: you go to a dso specific conference and go in a room like this you can find out what's

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of information to be found there yeah it's free it doesn't cost you it's not like

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_00]: you know if somebody comes up to me and says what do you think of this dso i'm not going

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_01]: to charge them to talk to so there's there's a lot of information and there's not necessarily

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_01]: any commitment so that's kind of but so what i'm hearing is if if you've got a practice

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_01]: if you're thinking about looking into having a practice acquired you'd be nuts not to go

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_01]: to these conferences that's exactly right because that's this is the best and easiest

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_01]: place to get information and frankly from a lot of different sources that are all knowledgeable

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_00]: sometimes people are overwhelmed you know and i still get these questions about how can i make

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_00]: somebody interested in my practice you know you at least know you're getting unsolicited

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_00]: emails it's not hard but i had a guy yesterday at this conference say well how do you find

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_00]: these people how do you know and i i said look don't take this the wrong way i'm just

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_00]: i'm going to make a joke at your expense i don't mean anything bad about it i said

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_00]: you just asked me like if i walked into the dog pound with a pound of raw of raw meat is anybody

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_00]: going to be interested in eating that i mean you know maybe you're not going to the right place

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_00]: but if you go to these specialized conferences there's booths in a room like this all lined

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_00]: up dso 1 dso 2 dso 3 dso 4 and again you can just walk right up engage with them they'll

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_00]: love how you doing now come on sit down alan tell me about yourself where's your practice

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_00]: how big is it and just it's the most natural easiest conversation you'll have and you can

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_00]: have five six seven of those in a day and you can gather up probably 75 percent of what you

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_00]: need that's really interesting just talking directly to the dsos and then you know the

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_00]: other 25 percent maybe you go to some get the consultant of some sort and ask them

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_01]: a few questions you know that's awesome what's what's the average deal for a dentist look

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_03]: some of us have heard about like golden handcuffs you go in and you think you're going to be selling

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_03]: and walking out the next day but you're there for five years what's what's the yeah no that's

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_00]: a loaded question because there's different kind of deals so you know if you're a solo practitioner

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and you're selling your you know your individual office um you know you might have a deal where

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_00]: um i like to think it's like stocks and bonds a dso strategic deal is a safe deal

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like bonds the return is going to be less you might get a four multiple or a five multiple

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_00]: but very little is going to be expected of you you know there will probably be a non-compete

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_00]: you can't go next door and start up a competing business but probably you can get paid you can

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_00]: exit in reasonably short order be a good corporate citizen don't steal anything don't

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_00]: compete against the business and that's kind of you know in a lot of cases that's it

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00]: but the return is not necessarily it'll be a nice safe solid return but not a giant return

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_00]: you do a private equity deal where you might be able to get a six eight or a ten multiple

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_00]: the return is going to be bigger but you're going to have to sign an employment agreement

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_00]: for five years afterwards you're going to have to stay around very often the cash price

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_00]: will be like a 60 40 split you'll get 60 percent of the purchase price at closing 40

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_00]: will be rolled over into shares of the new entity and you will cash out that 40 percent

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_00]: when the private equity firm exits in five years and you've got to stay for five years

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and you've got to work hard you've got to grow the business and you've got to be invested

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and have skin in the game you know because it's it's a lot greater commitment from you

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_00]: because the return is a lot higher versus if you do a safer i'm just going to do a strategic

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_00]: deal the return will be lower the multiple will be lower but you could potentially even exit

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_00]: the business and be done in a year or two and not have to stay around and do anything

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_03]: do all the dso companies have those different structures within themselves or

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_03]: are there's one particular company focused on doing one way or it's there there are

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_00]: there is variation okay it's it's a little bit like you know i already mentioned mcdonald's

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_00]: it's kind of like saying you know one's got the big mac one's got the whopper one's got i don't

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_00]: remember what wendy's has some type of whatever they got what in and out the triple now it's

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_00]: got the double double or whatever but you know so they're not it's not like one has

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_00]: something just completely out left field from the other there but there's variations there

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_00]: are variations and you know not every dso is going to be a good fit for every seller out

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_00]: just like you know if we're using this hamburger analogy somebody might just for one reason like

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_00]: the whopper better than a big mac they look the same you know they're they are a hamburger

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_00]: is kind of a hamburger but it's not quite a hamburger and you know for some reason

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_00]: subjectively for somebody's personality the whopper tastes better than the big mac same

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_00]: thing with dso subjectively yeah i mean we're getting hungry now yeah as you say it is

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_00]: lunchtime this is sort of where it's going but but it's true they're not it's not like one dso is

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: just so completely different from the other but there's enough subtle differences that you will

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_00]: have preferences some are going to be a better fit for certain sellers and others and it's not

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_00]: a knock if one's not a fit for you yeah they're going to be a fit for somebody else so it's

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_00]: not really like a knock on them but it's just going to be you know somebody asks me all the

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_00]: time you know what dso should i affiliate what deal should i do i said do you realize what you

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_00]: said who should i marry yeah you just asked me that question yeah and i you know i guess if i

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_00]: take the time to get to know you and we spend a lot of time together and maybe we go get

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_00]: introduced to if you're a guy we meet some girls together and i get a sense for what you

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_00]: like i probably could answer that question over time but the way you just posed it right now

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_00]: with me just meeting you i can't answer that question it might be good to consultant attorney

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_03]: before you get married yeah like a lot of people would maybe get your pre-op or god knows

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_01]: what they can do there but yeah didn't see it going this way i'm just gonna say right now

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_01]: little common sense droplets yeah that's right that's right but it is true sometimes i'll sit

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_00]: down with clients if they you know if i am working with them on the sell side and i will

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_00]: spend so you know quite a few hours with them to get to know them and their business

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and what they're looking for and ask a whole bunch of questions and then i do start

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_01]: of me who might be better do people who do people who want to be bought come to you and

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_01]: have you help them find the right person or they do sometimes i mean is that so that's a way

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_01]: that it could happen if someone decided look this is what i want to do this is my goal

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and you could actually probably tell them what they need to do to make their practice more

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_00]: i can't yeah like you know look better now there are professional people meaning you know i

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_00]: primarily do the legal side sure i've been in the space 25 years and know absolutely

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_00]: you know who to point them to you know so sometimes if you really just want information

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and an introduction yeah i do that all day long happy to do it help people if in addition

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_00]: to that you really got to sit down and reconstruct your practice or do some meaning like if you

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_00]: want to know generally what you should do i'll just generally tell you but if you're like

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_00]: well then who's going to help me do it then there's consultants i can actually sit down with

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_00]: you and help you do it you know i can say things like look you got to build up your

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_00]: infrastructure you got to have the latest software you got to make sure you know your practice can

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_00]: be replicated and repeated i mean i'll say that and that's true but if that if you say okay cool

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_00]: thanks and you do it great but if you look at me and you're like what is it i don't know how

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_00]: to do it yeah we got to get the consultant in there you know to sort of help you feel like

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_01]: you feel like you know mid-career practice owners should be looking at this even even

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_01]: if they're not positive should they be is there a reverse mortgage for a practice are you going

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_00]: to be tom sallick was he doing Henry Winkler exactly yeah that one guy um so here's the

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_00]: thing yeah you will not lose your house didn't he say something like it was it was crazy it

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_01]: was like basically they said we're gonna give you money you'll still own your house i'm

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_01]: like you're still in your house till you're dead yeah i think that's the rule yeah look i'm

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_00]: to stick to the things i know about dsos but that was just funny that reference but but

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_00]: yes so the answer is not yes it's like hell yes if we could can we say hell yes on your

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_00]: absolutely but because here's the thing this is what we know these are just facts not opinions

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_00]: you know if there's probably some dentists in their 50s that you know maybe have some

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_00]: misconceptions about dsos or don't necessarily think it's a it's a good thing for all those

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_00]: here's the reason these are just facts not opinions we're at 23 percent market penetration

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_00]: we're going to be 80 percent market penetration in seven to ten years so if you're 65 or 68

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_00]: now and you're going to retire all right you could probably do what you want to do but if

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_00]: you're going to spend more than five six seven years practicing dentistry you will have to

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_00]: confront this the entire marketplace is consolidating so yes even if you're not going

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_00]: to do a deal today and nobody has to my mission is education i'm not pressuring anybody today

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_00]: you got to educate yourself don't you i mean you got to learn what is out there and what

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_00]: might be required of you in a on a future date otherwise you just bury your head in the sand

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and all of a sudden seven years from now when it's beginning to become almost a necessity

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_00]: to have to convert to a dso you're going to get a real abrupt crash course why do that now

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_03]: you got that's a really big runway to learn right now i mean is there any advantage to

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_03]: getting out early as opposed to to waiting or yeah you take cash off the table i mean and i'm not

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_00]: again i'm not saying that for everybody that's the right move today but one advantage is you

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_00]: can take cash off the table right now and if you've built up enough of an organization

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and remember they pay multiples of evida and if your evida is high enough that when we multiply

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_00]: times the multiple you know you'll just use some rough you know math here if your evida

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_00]: is a half a million dollars and you found somebody that's going to pay you six times

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and you're going to take that three million dollar payout today and you're satisfied with

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that like that satisfies your retirement you feel great then i don't see why you wouldn't look

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_00]: at that right now if that return is too low for you or you you really enjoy continuing to

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_00]: grow your organization and you're saying yeah the evida is a half a million now but two

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_00]: years from now i'll have it at 1.2 million then you should keep doing what you're doing

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_00]: grow it and then do a deal but you got to be thinking strategic if your plan right now

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and you're listening to the show is i got like my solo office and my plan for the next seven

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_00]: years is i got like my solo office yeah maybe i'm going to look for an associate no that

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_00]: that's not probably that's probably not very realistic yeah it's not going to be realistic

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_01]: for you so here's something now and i think a lot of people would hear their year 23 percent

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and go wow it just doesn't seem like that here's what i'm thinking i think a lot of

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_01]: here's what it is if they don't think it's that high yet it's because they think that a dso from

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_01]: the outside looks a certain way that's right where in reality there's probably plenty of

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_01]: practices in the area that are that are dso but they don't have any idea i have no idea speak

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_01]: on that a little bit because i think that's i think that's real i think that's where

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah where the where the misconception is so they think this quote i'm making quotation marks

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_00]: corporate dentistry single branded yes they think there's something down the street like not

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_00]: every dso has an aspen sign on it basically they see something down the street that's a single

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_00]: branded name yeah and um they think they know what it looks like and they think it looks like

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_00]: a they think a low-end clinic where they wouldn't send their kids there but you know

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_00]: it's it's sort of low quality dentistry for people that normally wouldn't go to the dentist

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_00]: but they're going to go to this low quality thing that's what they think it is yeah in fact

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_00]: while there are still a few of those around i'm not going to lie to people the models probably

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_00]: run the gamut yeah they do you can find a couple that are what you would call lower quality clinics

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and they are dsos and i would concede that but at this point that's like five percent of the

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_01]: market so it's not isn't all isn't all people sliding in to take advantage of the medicaid

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_00]: my dentist is a dso okay i don't think she wants me to mention her on this but

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_00]: she's affiliated with dso you go in there it's about as high end looking to practice

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_00]: as you would ever see i can never figure it out they got the mrs fields cookies and all the sugar

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_00]: drinks aren't you guys trying to fight cavities how do you have well i mean mrs fields cookies

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_00]: in like the lobby maybe don't call us out on that i mean i'm just saying maybe they just figure

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_00]: look we'll do i don't know but my point is high end coffee the special coffee machine the

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_00]: mrs fields cookies the playstation for the kids he's big on the pixie sticks he likes to do that

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_00]: probably gobstopper thing yeah i didn't see that stuff but but really high end practice you would

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_00]: never in a million years if you think a dso is lower quality you would say this you know take

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_00]: a quick guess dso or not you would say absolutely not and i know for a fact because i set it up

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_00]: it is a dso yeah and it's a super high quality practice so and she's still practicing right i

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_01]: still in it so that's i think that might be another misconception that you know the dso is

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_00]: actually in her case in her case they got some reming not nobody knows who she is so i

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_00]: could talk a little bit that's right it's still an emerging organization they haven't even taken

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_00]: pe funding yet they're growing themselves and i think i could be a little off i think they're

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_00]: up to 10 or 11 offices but they're growing okay on their own and just my prediction is

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_00]: i feel like when they decide to sell they'll be in for a heck of a good deal when they do

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_00]: but right now they're just growing it you know themselves 10 or 11 offices and i remember in

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_00]: the case of my dentist when they were one office when i helped them set remember we were

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_00]: saying one office dso i literally set up a one office dso and the things now like 11 offices

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and thriving and doing doing incredibly well and it's a really first rate um uh first class

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_00]: high end operation so if you think you can pick out a dso based on quality you would never

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_01]: super interesting point i think i think that that in some ways when people talk about dso

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_01]: slash corporate dentistry they paint with a broad brush and they probably don't know

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_01]: necessarily what they're talking about on some level so that's interesting yeah yeah so that's a

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_00]: big you know a big part of it the dsos now in 2020 and for the last several years quite

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_00]: honestly run the full gamut from maybe what you thought the stereotype was to something just

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_00]: that'll knock your socks off incredible quality high end office and everything in between something

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_00]: that's just average nice looking you know average practice a little above average you know

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_01]: just runs the full gamut because by definition like we talked about at the beginning this is

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_01]: dso is basically a dental office run by a non-clinical entity so in other words it's just

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_01]: it's you know it's owned by dentists but it's managed the management is done by someone

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_00]: clinical functions are performed by that in non-dentist that's wide open there's a lot of

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_01]: ways they can do that for sure so by this time in the podcast i guarantee you we've got people

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_01]: listening going okay this is interesting i want to know more this is right so i think we should

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_00]: talk about the conference i'd love to yeah i'm really excited about it i'm literally holding

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_01]: this card and i'm like okay so this is a good time to slip this in so i come a dso.com

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_00]: because i can't this is not video right they can't see the car dicam a dso.com july 15th

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_00]: 17th 2020 we got a discount code will honor even if like it's vod voices of dentistry in 2020

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_00]: even if you're not like at the thing now but you listen vod 2020 will be your discount guys

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_01]: lucked out we were going to make you be at the meeting but you know it's tough yeah that's

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_00]: what i'm saying my standards are i'm going to loosen them up it's late in the day we're

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_00]: drinking a little bit here it's cool but you know but yeah vod 2020 this this is a this is

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_01]: when you've done so this isn't your first rodeo we're gonna have a thousand people there this

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_00]: year you're right we just just 10 seconds because you guys are always gracious uh talking about

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_00]: the conference i had to beg 40 people to come to the first one and we might have had i resemble

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_00]: that remark if you counted dicam of people we might have had 30 it's kind of tricky second

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_00]: one we had about 75 then we had about 250 then we had 400 then we had 620 last year we had

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_00]: 804 people this year we're expecting a thousand people there gonna be a really big event and

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_00]: if you if anything that i said interests you like you're a buyer you're a seller you're that

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_00]: mba business person that wants to start with your first practice dso you want to hear about

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_00]: the alternatives i mean you know we have we're time limited we don't have hours but there's

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_00]: 10 12 alternative dsos and you heard me say oh he mentioned alternative dsos but he didn't

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_00]: have time to go through all of them they're all gonna be at the conference so all of that stuff

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_00]: is at the conference and you can learn about all of it there it sounds like this is like there

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_01]: will be a lot of people going okay i didn't really realize this this is probably a really

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_01]: good step again july 15th through 17th it's in dallas yep and uh vod 2020 for your code

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_01]: uh it's really cool brian this is this exciting it's kind of neat i'm excited i kind of love

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_01]: having you come on here because a lot of times we get we get off in our little clinical

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_01]: stuff or whatever this is where and i you're sort of our resource for dso information so we

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_01]: appreciate that i love coming on here and chatting with you guys i really do and thank you again

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_01]: for supporting the voice of dentistry it's awesome to have you here and i hope i hope to

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_00]: see you guys personally at the conference hopefully podcasting like this i mean incredible

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_00]: thanks for being on thanks you my pleasure guys

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_03]: hey damnit hack station we're back that was our interview with mr daikama it was the mr daikama

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_03]: himself with the daikama himself his name is his last name isn't daikama but it's brian kaleo

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_01]: but he is kind of mr daikama himself really i don't know man i don't know i was uh i was

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_01]: excited to talk to him he was and he's he's you know he's been good he's been on a lot

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_01]: times before um but this this time i felt like i don't know i just connected a little bit more

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe maybe it's just because about five years ago what people thought need a knee with him

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_01]: i think so that five years ago what people thought about dsos and quote unquote corporate

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_01]: dentistry is different than it is now even even with us talking about frank and how frank

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_01]: is frank's whole take is you know uh i think frank disagrees probably with the the market

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_01]: saturation that brian talks about for now we're talking about frank oh that guy frank spear

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_01]: oh thanks yeah the other guy the other frank yeah um he's he's pretty bullish on dentistry in

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_01]: general and he's i think they're sort of against dso but i think what it is is a ds i think dsos

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_01]: are not what we thought they were five years ago that's all that's that's all i'm saying

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_01]: that's what i'm saying and i'm sticking to it do that alan i will so you've got me in

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_01]: on the dental hacks nation you are literally like three hours ago you you posted something

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_01]: saying that that's it i've been trying to convince alan to do a microscope course and

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_01]: put you on and actually you did you put me on the spot so i here's the thing uh i promise i

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_01]: will consider it i didn't realize that there'd be people that would actually be all that

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_01]: interested so i have hashtag told you so well and and what's interesting is is maybe

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe there's a way to do it because arizona has all those crazy like samaritan laws i don't know

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_01]: if we could ever do like a live patient microscope kind of course or whatever but

[00:56:53] [SPEAKER_01]: it'd be interesting to the the problem is is pb got a bunch of microscopes in the room so

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_01]: people can kind of mess around with them so that's that's the thing microscope companies

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_01]: you hear me it'd be really good to have a clinic full of different microscopes so everyone

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_01]: could try the different brands i know that the brands don't really want to do it exactly

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_01]: exactly it's sort of a cage match i'm sure that the brands don't want to hear that

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_01]: but the reality is is like hey you know what you don't want people buying a scope and being

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_01]: unhappy with it because they didn't really have a chance to try it you know it would make sense

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_01]: to to be able to try a whole bunch of them with kind of no pressure especially that anyone

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_01]: who's going to go bother to take a class like that is pretty much primed and like looking

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_01]: i don't know i'm interested i'll start i'll start doing some legwork on that folks if you

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_01]: are listening this and go yeah i'd like i'd be interested in taking a course about microscopes

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_01]: message us in the dental hacks nation or info at dentalhacks.com and i'll start putting something

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_01]: together i have some i have thoughts people i have thoughts so i mean i mean a lot of brands

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_03]: do that and they don't realize they're like not everybody's going to be impressed with the

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_03]: same thing yes yes you're missing the opportunity brands being so insular i kind of think so

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_01]: a little bit like yep i don't i don't mean to seem like it like i don't know i think the sales

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_01]: people sometimes are really short-sighted on that the last thing you really want is someone

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_01]: buying your brand because they didn't know your brand from someone else's i mean and even

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_01]: even at an exhibitor floor like the midwinter where there's probably a lot of scope companies

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_01]: it's still not a great place to actually you know you can only mess around with it so much

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_01]: like having it in a somewhat clinical situation i'll tell you that the bio clear

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_01]: uh classes you know because in dave's office he's got a bunch of microscopes they're all

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_01]: globals but what a great chance to try and play with play around you know you're not

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_01]: working on patients but you're kind of doing clinical stuff on type it is great so i don't

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_01]: know i think it'd be kind of cool to see if there's a way to put something like that

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_01]: together so if there's any listeners out there that think they'd be interested let us know

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_03]: for sure there's anyone that could do it it's you alan you had the power all along i don't

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_01]: know what i do we'll see we'll see so uh now is the time on the show when we do that segment

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_01]: in my voice goes funny like not like ha ha funny but kind of like well that's funny

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_01]: my voice does that and i say go hack yourself i say well i never he does he does say that

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's true he does never uh as tradition dictates dr libscomb i think it's your turn

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_03]: to go hack yourself oh thank you well my pleasure really my pleasure oh thank you

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_01]: the gravitas is just beautiful this weekend it's just a mutual admiration society

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_03]: yep well once again i was watching the netflix wasn't chilling watching

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_01]: ha ha well yeah man you shouldn't have said anything because my mind was going to places

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_03]: let me just say we don't chill in this household believe me i was watching the netflix and uh i

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_03]: saw a series a couple weeks ago that was one of my go hack yourselves was the movies that

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_03]: made us and then recently i saw the toys that made us oh my gosh and started to watch that

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_03]: evidently it's a documentary for 2017 so i've kind of missed the boats several years ago

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_03]: but i was fascinated by it because it was a documentary on uh the toys that transformers

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_03]: uh teenage regions turtles power rangers oh it sounds like there's a bunch there's a bunch of

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_03]: seasons it looks like i'm looking at right now oh wow he man so i mean it basically did

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_03]: uh the backstory on all these toys that this kid to the 80s grew up with

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah it's a rabbit hole i'm going down it was it was super interesting uh um obviously i wasn't

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_03]: really keen in on the barbie and all that other stuff um but sure you weren't whatever

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_03]: super interesting the power rangers no one here believes that jason sorry you deal with

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_01]: it i was i will say that i was i was just slightly too old to be he man into the he man

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: like i i have to admit that like i watched the cartoon but i was a little bit too old

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_01]: for the figures but i had i had tons of star wars figures oh my god i was not allowed

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_03]: to watch he man because it had too much mysticism yeah yeah well skeletor was kind

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: of like uh you know sort of a stand-in for satan himself yes well my strict southern

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_03]: baptist upbringing did not allow us to watch uh he man it's funny though that like you

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_01]: guys never would have been able to watch like harry potter then or something like that oh god

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_03]: no yeah god no we uh i wasn't allowed to watch dukes of hazard because they were uh breaking

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_03]: the law yeah breaking your law breaking a lot of little things that made me so screwed up

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_03]: the way i am right now oh you it's good though you can blame it on your parents it's awesome

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_03]: i love my parents but they did a number on me

[01:01:58] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah but the power the power rangers was and and watching this as an adult you realize what a

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_03]: mind f that a lot of these things were that they were they were formulated to make you

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_03]: buy kids buy toys oh yeah there was nothing there's nothing organic or about any of this

[01:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: stuff like every every bit of the television show was formulated to make you buy stuff oh

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_03]: 100% and it just it as an adult and as a dentist it kind of made me think about what

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_03]: what my triggers are now um for buying stuff and it's it's amazing the similarities that you

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_03]: can draw trained incredibly well is what it is you were trained oh my gosh yeah trained in

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_03]: consumerism oh yeah but yeah it's super interesting i mean obviously there's some

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_03]: nostalgia like oh um but it's it's wild just to see the people that created everything how

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_03]: created it and so yeah it's pretty cool how they took money out of your very pocket

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_01]: exactly oh yeah yeah crazy so my go-hack yourself is a little bit more dental specific

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: than then he made boring yeah i know it's super boring um i i'm my nsk brasser guy

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: shows up at my office and i and i believe that is the cue for me to buy stuff apparently

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: i tend to buy anyhow i bought some new hand pieces um i my thought process was well my i use electric

[01:03:26] [SPEAKER_01]: hand pieces from nsk um and i've got i got a bunch of them i have high speeds and i use

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: slow speeds i got a bunch of them but what happens is i've got enough of them that we

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: we were never you know short on them per se but what will happen is i buy them all at

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: once and the they die all at once and with these hand pieces it's almost as expensive

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_01]: to get them rebuilt as it is to just get new ones with a warranty on them so i tend to just buy

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: a few every couple years kind of thing so i bought some new ones they are um they're the

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: they're nsk forza m5s what's interesting is they are tiny they're really small like

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_01]: i the ones i was using how small were they they're super small i don't i mean i'll put a

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: picture up of them but they are close to the same size as like an air-driven handpiece now

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: that's crazy like for someone who doesn't like electrics because they're bulkier

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_01]: they're getting to a point now where they're not that much bulkier and you still get all

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_01]: the advantages of the electric which is the all the torque and everything like that so i'm a big

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: fan of nsk electric hand pieces have been using i've been using forever forever and these are

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: the smallest high speed uh contra angles that i've ever used so pretty cool forza m5 they're

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_01]: stupid expensive i got i got a deal like the chicago midwinter deal it was like buy two get

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: one free and it was still ridiculously expensive so um electric hand pieces are expensive but they

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_01]: do last for a long time so that's it's like the it's like the opposite of the air-driven ebay

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: you know where you can throw them out after a couple uses these are stupid expensive but they

[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: do last for a good long time so that's my go hack yourself that was good at one have you

[01:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: ever have you ever you're not an electric handpiece guy are you i do i use oh you do

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: okay use the cavo hand place oh you use cavos who you're all like he's like it's like riding

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_01]: in style i didn't know that i because didn't you use ya bang bang from ebay at some point

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah i got the bang bang for uh like my hygiene office anything with um if uh need to

[01:05:22] [SPEAKER_03]: do like an adjustment or something oh okay so you can pop them on there i got it i got it

[01:05:26] [SPEAKER_01]: that's a good that's a good idea have some inexpensive air-driven ones for when you need

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_03]: to do it in hygiene i got it yeah good call for 19 you can buy like a baker's dozen of them

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_01]: it's fantastic it is it is they are they're essentially disposable at that point so

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: well there you have it another episode of the dental hacks podcast

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_01]: yes was it as glorious for you as it was for me jason it was fan freaking

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_01]: it was it was fantastic so uh let's do this let's uh let's talk again in a week

[01:05:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and uh we'll we'll let the people listen to us while we talk sound like a plan

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_03]: yes and remember to go visit the dental hacks academy yes academy that's the academy

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: yes you can learn how to basically uh market online in all sorts of ways yes all sorts of

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_01]: ads and even if you're the guy who's like yeah there's no way i'm going to do that myself

[01:06:25] [SPEAKER_01]: this is an inexpensive enough deal so you actually know what questions to ask of the

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: people that are doing these ads for you would you say that's correct jason yeah and

[01:06:35] [SPEAKER_03]: and what we're finding too is a lot of people want somebody in their office to do it

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_03]: and this is set up in such a way that you can get somebody in your office to do that

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_03]: if they can get access to your ads account that's really cool they can set all this up so it's very

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_03]: simple watch the video they've got templates they go in change the words on the templates

[01:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: put it in there and you're good to go listen people if this has any interest to you at all

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: academy.dentalhacks.com that's it right academy.dentalhacks.com this is a steal

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_01]: this is if you look at a comparative course of any type it's like a steal so you should

[01:07:15] [SPEAKER_01]: totally check this out also dental hacks nation is a facebook group that we have 28,000 plus crazy

[01:07:23] [SPEAKER_01]: people that it's so interactive in there it's nuts it's a bit of a time suck it's sometimes

[01:07:28] [SPEAKER_01]: a dumpster fire but it's pretty awesome i think it's probably the best dental dental

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: facebook group out there even though it's sometimes an absolute garbage fire it's our

[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: so come at me bro and uh and you can email us at info.dentalhacks.com

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: tell us how great we are or how much we suck we read everything we don't we kind of already

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: know you can say it but i mean it's like i'm going to take that to heart you know

[01:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: no shocker there all right jason so again we'll speak to you in a week or so and hey listen

[01:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: to the the dental hacks shorts listen to the clinical hacks uh hey last week we had a smithson

[01:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: on we may have another one of those coming up too so we're filling up your ears with

[01:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: dental hacks goodness so listen to everything tell us tell us leave us a review tell the

[01:08:17] [SPEAKER_01]: world how great we are we need that so all right we'll talk to you guys later next week

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: bye