Very Dental: From Polysulfide to Intraoral Scanners with Dr. David Hornbrook

[00:00:00] Picture this. You've got perfect isolation. Your matrix is placed. You've etched and bonded,

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[00:01:30] This is a production of the very dental podcast network.

[00:01:34] This is the very dental podcast.

[00:01:46] Welcome to the very dental podcast, where you'll find entertaining and relevant conversations with

[00:01:51] visionaries, clinicians and your friends in the dental space. Now here's your host Dr. Alan Mead.

[00:01:58] All right we are in. I just...

[00:02:02] I didn't see it go in that direction.

[00:02:04] We've gone pretty gutter pretty early.

[00:02:09] She's also a podcaster. She's great. She does more video.

[00:02:13] Remember I told you there was no video here. I know. I dressed up just for you.

[00:02:17] I know.

[00:02:19] So I should probably bring us in then. I'm just going to lead you. I know that you can do anything,

[00:02:23] so I'm not worried about it. Topic? Not even sure yet. We'll figure it out.

[00:02:27] Okay. Very dental people. Welcome to another episode of the very dental podcast, joining me as a

[00:02:32] co-host for this live-to-tap kind of episode sitting on the floor of the Chicago Midwinter 24.

[00:02:40] Dr. David Ornbrook. David, how are you doing? Yeah, I'm doing great. Thanks. Thanks for the invitation.

[00:02:43] Yeah, so I ran into David on the floor yesterday and I have a feeling these meetings are...

[00:02:52] You're doing it differently this year than you will because a lot of times you got to be speaking.

[00:02:55] Right? Like you're most of the time you see and when you're a speaker,

[00:03:00] if you get on the floor, you're kind of lucky. Like they have you running all over doing speaker

[00:03:04] stuff and generally if they have you, they use you all over the place. Is that right?

[00:03:09] Absolutely. Absolutely. And as a speaker, you're up until that you're time that you are done in

[00:03:15] the presentation. You're thinking about your presentation. Yeah, yeah. It's like that room,

[00:03:19] there's nothing else going on. It's just the room you're in. So the day or two days before even

[00:03:23] you're thinking do I need to add another case? Do I need to add another subject or a slide?

[00:03:26] Exactly. And you're always thinking about it. And I am not speaking this time. I tell people I'm

[00:03:31] here to shop, eat and walk around and see friends which I'm doing now. That's exactly right.

[00:03:36] And I took no classes here. I actually kind of signed up late but now that I see

[00:03:43] we're sitting in a podcasting room, I love it. Irene had criticism for it. I think it's perfect.

[00:03:49] It's got it's enclosed. It's still you can hear the din of the activity but it's enclosed enough

[00:03:53] that they got windows so people can, it's pretty cool. I think it's a really good set of

[00:03:57] items. Yeah, it's quite enough. It's a little quieter than out there. So because I've

[00:04:01] podcasted at the midwinter a bunch of times but typically I'll find someone I work with an

[00:04:06] exhibitor and I'll do it at their booth. Oh yeah. And so of course you're almost always an afterthought

[00:04:11] and in your end everyone's way. You know, you're trying to find a spot. So this is great. This is

[00:04:15] this is a nice place to do it. So yes, nice they provide it. And I have to figure that living in

[00:04:20] San Diego, Chicago in February is oftentimes a pretty big ask right? I mean like. Yeah,

[00:04:26] you know the Chicago midwinter meeting. It should be the San Diego midwinter. Exactly right.

[00:04:31] Where else would you rather be? I mean, you need to be in Florida or Southern California. There's

[00:04:34] no doubt in my mind that the midwinter started when the hotels gave us a really good deal in February.

[00:04:39] It must have been because why they held you come to Chicago in February. It's actually quite nice

[00:04:43] this time but it is nice. You know, when I landed two days ago it was 68 degrees and it was only 62 in

[00:04:49] San Diego so you're thinking wait a minute February in Chicago and it's warmer than San Diego.

[00:04:53] But it happens. It's funny too because over the years you've probably been here. There's been

[00:04:56] some years where literally I'm driving in and it's like an ice storm and then there's years

[00:05:00] where it's like 60 in sunny and you never know quite what you're going to get. The Chicago gets

[00:05:04] pretty serious weather so I've been doing this. I mean, I graduated in 1997 and I haven't missed

[00:05:11] a ton of them. I've been my dad was bringing me here when I was in dental school. So this was kind

[00:05:15] of the thing. You know, it's a good meeting. It is. It is. You can take a lot of different classes.

[00:05:18] The exhibit floor is big. I mean, for me it's driveable which is fantastic. I love that part too

[00:05:25] but I mean, I know you're used to flying all over the place but for us midwesterners

[00:05:30] I'm going to drive if I can. How long does it take it to drive up here?

[00:05:33] Four and a half hours. That's really doable. Yeah and it's nice because I'll probably drive out

[00:05:38] tomorrow morning early where driving in Chicago at 7 a.m. on a Saturday is awesome because

[00:05:44] you can see everything and there's no traffic. It's awesome. It's very good. Yeah, good.

[00:05:48] Safe drive. So have you seen anything on the floor that has wowed you? Anything that you weren't

[00:05:53] expecting to see? Not really. I hate to say that but I really haven't seen a lot. I walked through

[00:05:59] it every hour yesterday and I mean there's a lot of cool stuff but cool stuff that I think has

[00:06:04] been out there for a while. Yeah. You know, you look at some of the big manufacturers whether it'd be

[00:06:08] at least the people in my life, Biscoe, I have a car or three-hump. Yeah. You know, they're not

[00:06:14] introducing anything new which is really unusual. Yeah. Chicago mid-winners usually the

[00:06:18] road out there. Yeah and the Europeans are coming in and they're rolling out something. I just

[00:06:21] haven't seen it. What I have seen because concurrently the Lab Day, yeah. And the dental lab

[00:06:30] meaning is going on and some of that stuff over there is blowing me away. Lab days. I had someone

[00:06:37] described Lab Day compared to the mid-winner like McCormick is like going into like this is

[00:06:43] like going to church and that's going into a German disco or something like that. It's a different

[00:06:49] feel over at Lab Day all the, I mean there's a lot of technology here but they're next level with

[00:06:53] their technology stuff over there. Absolutely. It's kind of a sexier meeting than the mid-winner

[00:06:56] beyond. I can't think it is too. Yeah. It's very European because everyone's bringing in the

[00:07:00] mills and the printers and the news are cognians and it used to be there was like ten tables in the back

[00:07:05] of the room. You know now it's an exhibition floor that is not as big as McCormick but very very

[00:07:12] cool. The interesting about that meeting is you see so much stuff that you've never seen before.

[00:07:16] Yeah. You know dentists as I or you or any other dentist walk around the Chicago mid-winner

[00:07:22] floor. You know we'll see something that maybe we've never used but we've seen an ad for

[00:07:26] red or it's another composite with a different name or a different shade right where you go to

[00:07:31] that meeting and it's like I don't even know what that thing is. Yeah. Yeah. What is that? Yeah. I

[00:07:35] don't know what this does exactly. And I mean the digital transformation when you think about it

[00:07:40] in a grand scheme of things. I mean you've been teaching cosmetic dentistry for a long time

[00:07:44] and the digital transformation actually happened kind of fast. Really fast. I mean like it's kind of

[00:07:49] like mainstream, it's kind of barely a decade old and so it's changing really fast. Oh yeah.

[00:07:54] And it's like do they even train lab tech anymore? I mean like specialty stuff for I guess stacking

[00:08:01] fields path. That's like that's like that's that's cottage industry stuff man. Yeah that's a

[00:08:06] lost art. Yeah a lot of people are not doing that. Yeah. Yeah it's kind of interesting is you know

[00:08:11] I'm the clinical director of education at Utah Validental App so I'm up there a lot and they had

[00:08:15] a really successful CDT school. Okay. That's several of even the master ceramics that are in the lab

[00:08:22] went when they were younger you know they're learning how to do everything. That closed out. Yeah

[00:08:26] you know there's no CDT school in the state of Utah now because you know now it's a kid. Yeah

[00:08:32] you know they come into a lab and the first thing you ask him is you know are you good at PlayStation?

[00:08:35] Yeah. And if they say yeah I'm like master level of Call of Duty it's like you're now a ground design

[00:08:40] yeah yeah you know it's very true and it's it's really interesting. I think you know because when

[00:08:44] last time I talked to you was when you were speaking at the better meeting which was excellent by

[00:08:47] the way. Thanks. I feel like I feel like the better meeting would be for speakers would enjoy

[00:08:54] being watching the better meeting because we get good speakers and it's a pretty intimate

[00:08:58] place to present. Yes. I should invite all the people that I know that have spoken there before

[00:09:02] to come as guests because also you go out and you go out and eat in Bellarins anyhow we had a CDT

[00:09:09] school at Ferris State up until I think it was like 10 years ago. There's no CDT in Michigan either

[00:09:14] and I think at this point if you wanted to get a CDT I wonder how many there are in the United

[00:09:20] States. I mean I wonder how many programs there are. I don't know how many programs there are. I

[00:09:24] think today you'd have to get one that has been in practice for a while. Yeah yeah yeah.

[00:09:28] The CDT school when they were in their young people. They have to there's got it in a particularly

[00:09:33] for the removal people hear a lot of people really scoffing about the digital stuff and they can but

[00:09:37] I don't I think it's I think it's it's in the cards man it's it's this way it's going so it's kind

[00:09:42] of uh I mean I'm cool with that we have I was looking at I kind of neat situation with me I

[00:09:48] I am in a building that has two suites they're two condos I own one condo and there was a guy

[00:09:53] physical therapy guy and the other one he sold it to my lab technician. Oh okay so now I have my

[00:09:58] lab technician in the building and he's kind of getting up and running and he bought a mill

[00:10:04] because he used to he used to design and have a milling place to his and now he's doing it

[00:10:08] and honestly that you can tell I could tell right away it's pretty cool he's able to kind of

[00:10:12] tighten it up and everything but like I think I think who he bought it from just like delivered it

[00:10:16] and said good luck I mean his eyes were a little big like yeah I think he honest to God installed it

[00:10:21] with like with a phone technician can you imagine that too much if you and I had to do that

[00:10:26] it's unreal oh my god it doesn't surprise me considering the technology and everything does have

[00:10:31] to communicate with each other and it's almost like the phone guy would be the good guy

[00:10:34] installing all maybe maybe yeah but learning how to use it using it correctly and efficient and

[00:10:40] and make the money that you should be making on it sure you know I think I think a lot of them

[00:10:44] are not trained yeah very well and it's really trial and error where it's like okay let's turn

[00:10:48] on see what comes out yeah and if it doesn't come out the way you want it then you tweak it

[00:10:52] and make some changes the good news with him just like every every lab owner started out as a as

[00:10:58] an employee in another lab and decided they wanted to do it this their way it'd be like an associate

[00:11:02] deciding that you know I hate the way he does this I want to do it this way so I start my own so

[00:11:06] my lab guy actually knows how to run a mill but he didn't know how to install it I don't think

[00:11:10] that was that was the new thing but I wouldn't either so well a nice thing let me just interject here

[00:11:15] the one nice thing about your guy is not a big lab I guess yeah yeah and now technology is

[00:11:20] affordable you know when lava first came out in 2010 which 2000 when it was the only zirconian we

[00:11:28] had that machine was almost 500,000 all yeah and that's why as you just mentioned your lab used

[00:11:34] these milling centers yeah they were located all around the country where you know we were taking

[00:11:38] traditional impressions not scams and you he would pour it up he would send it to the milling

[00:11:43] center and they would send him either a coping or monolithics are cutting a crown back

[00:11:47] and the nice thing about that is now that 500,000 dollar mill which was a three axis mill for lava

[00:11:53] two mazes huge just like a big side by side refrigerator now I got mills in the 50 to 70,000

[00:12:00] dollar range that are seven axis multiple materials and that's a cool thing because guys like

[00:12:05] all the small lab make sense I can afford a printer yeah I can afford a mill yeah I can afford

[00:12:10] the technology that a larger lab something interesting so of course I literally when I when I

[00:12:16] have a break more about more than about 10 minutes I go over and bug them you know because yeah

[00:12:20] cuz I think every dentist should have a lab technician that they can like see what the hell they're

[00:12:24] doing and see you know see what the what blows my mind is I would have assumed because I've been

[00:12:28] digital for a long time and he's handled my digital stuff for a long time I would have assumed

[00:12:32] that everyone he works with it's got a lab full of impressions man I'm shocked it's crazy I know

[00:12:37] some of his clients are a lot younger than me too I'm like really yeah so I I just assume that

[00:12:42] the rest of the world's doing it like I'm doing it which is a dumb thing to assume honestly there's

[00:12:46] yeah probably a bigger vision of that but I mean well I see that too I mean you know still when

[00:12:52] I go to Utah balance about 120 employees yeah 10 little master ceramics but the biggest room

[00:12:58] in the whole lab is the model yeah it is I mean it's they're still going yeah freaking crazy right

[00:13:03] the digital department which you know we have seven mills and five printers you know there's three

[00:13:08] employees running all that yeah there's 35 employees in the model room so you see it and you know

[00:13:13] as technology you know when I talked to Dennis and I said he has dentistry changed in the last 10

[00:13:17] years and they say oh yeah crazy five years yeah absolutely well times that by 50 that's where

[00:13:23] that's the rate the lab has been completely different yeah so the little jokes on them too the

[00:13:27] the model room might be huge but it's go it's they scan it as soon as it's a model and it's

[00:13:32] into the digital then it's you know they're not they're not doing a lot of stuff on the model

[00:13:35] except scanning yeah not really yeah unless the dentist wants a model back right and then

[00:13:39] then they get a stone model back but you know I think the labs have to adopt and adapt with

[00:13:46] technology you know if you call lab and said hey do you mills or coonies is now I send it out it's

[00:13:50] like I'm going to find another lab yeah yeah or do you have a printer that you can print me a digital

[00:13:53] model no I don't I send it out it's like okay I'm going to find another lab yeah exactly right where

[00:13:58] dentist though can still practice and not they it's not mandatory for them to have technology yeah

[00:14:05] we're insulated I live in a world of like you I scan everything right but their friends are

[00:14:11] lying that are excellent Dennis so they they haven't bought scanners because they don't want to spend

[00:14:14] the 25 grand or 30 grand and they've been getting great results and they don't have their patients

[00:14:20] necessarily coming in and saying if you're not using a scanner and going somewhere else yeah

[00:14:24] not like you and I have with our lab yeah super funny too because and I mean you may see this in

[00:14:29] a different way depending on your clientele but it doesn't take much to impress a patient with

[00:14:34] technology like when you can show that okay I'm scanning and I have a laptop sitting there

[00:14:40] and it's a three-dimensional model of their teeth that's being made right on site that's amazing

[00:14:43] to those yeah I mean I was really thinking about it is amazing yes it would have been amazing to

[00:14:46] me 10 years ago yeah let's be honest I mean shit I used I used to put one with powder and everyone

[00:14:50] to powder was okay because that's what we have yeah like I did too and I mean like can you imagine

[00:14:58] if they said okay you're fine but you got to go back to powder I don't think I would do it

[00:15:02] I think I probably know I mean powders helpful for you know when you got a shiny gold grondler but

[00:15:06] the reality is like that's a step that I you know you don't have to take why would you take it yeah

[00:15:10] I don't know I just a why totally agree with you because I you know I had a Sarah

[00:15:14] 20 years ago and then the true death by three I'm that right I had one too yeah and it was

[00:15:19] you know as you sit there and you think how am I gonna take this impression it's like it's actually

[00:15:23] easier just to use a polyfile yeah that is yeah then then to mess with this live the tongue

[00:15:28] in the powder and repattling yeah yeah yeah so it is it's just funny to think that like that wasn't

[00:15:34] that long ago that I was doing that stuff that's the crazy thing like it wasn't it feels like a

[00:15:39] hundred years ago and it also feels like a hundred years ago that I was taking polyvinyl impressions

[00:15:42] for it again it's not it's it's so time is a funny thing in dentistry a little bit yeah it's

[00:15:49] in I agree I think the labs the labs have taken taken to the change much more easily than dentists have

[00:15:55] yeah you don't have to as a dentist like we're kind of insulated from that we can do it the way

[00:15:58] we've always been doing it yeah and more than like like you said patients patients are impressed

[00:16:02] with the technology yeah but they're probably not going to choose a dentist whether they have

[00:16:08] a certain technology right maybe maybe Zarek or if you're doing you know crowns in a day maybe someone

[00:16:13] that drives two hours you know and they live in rural somewhere right to have that done in one day

[00:16:18] yeah they might choose a dentist based on that yeah but I don't think a patient's kind of gonna come

[00:16:23] in and say if you don't have a scan I'm going somewhere else I agree I agree and I mean

[00:16:28] the most satisfying and probably best dentistry that I've done has been on people I have a pretty good

[00:16:33] relationship with I know you talked about that when you're at the very it's like some of these people

[00:16:36] become pretty close like you get to really know them and frankly it's so fun to work on someone

[00:16:42] who's rooting for you too who knows you can do it and who's rooting for you that's awesome that's

[00:16:46] the best I agree you know the other thing too about that like you have a lot of long term patients

[00:16:51] they're seeing the technology changes because as I'm seeing it you know I get a standard it's like when

[00:16:56] did you get that yeah I just got a last month you know and so they're evolving that I'm involving

[00:17:01] yeah as I'm evolving and so as I get excited about technology or materials or whatever it could be

[00:17:06] even a new employee you know they're seeing that excitement my passion yeah and I think it's so

[00:17:11] important in these long term relationships yeah yeah it's it's fun the best is when

[00:17:18] the when did you get this question is an interesting one and that it's always a chance for you to

[00:17:22] kind of flex a little bit is and I always imagine what if that patient moved somewhere

[00:17:27] and they found a dentist and they needed a crown and and you had been doing crowns with a scanner

[00:17:32] and doing a nice clean and then they went back to yeah I was joking with someone about poly sulfide

[00:17:38] oh yeah you remember poly sulfide good stuff man great I mean like all the best features horrible

[00:17:44] tear strength horrible bench stability smells like a bad term yeah exactly oh 10 minutes set too

[00:17:49] that's so like what's not to love and I feel like it had to have been so cheap they were given

[00:17:53] it away because that's got to be the only feature that was there and they used it for denture

[00:17:56] impressions and crowned bridge impressions at the University of Minnesota as late as 1997 yeah I used

[00:18:02] I graduated in 86 but yeah we used we used rubber base oh my gosh you know and if you if it's built

[00:18:08] anywhere you might as well throw away arrow piece of clothing out of his way because you cannot get it

[00:18:12] out so yeah it's the reason that end to don't it's where scrubs because I literally have a pair of

[00:18:16] pants wearing a little bit of bleach yeah exactly yeah exactly so that's why I did not

[00:18:20] scratch gloves and this is very true but yeah poly sulfide you could get it out you had to use

[00:18:23] scissors but you could get it out yeah that's it you would have put a patch over yeah exactly I

[00:18:28] remember that stuff I don't there's a part of me that feels like I should get some just to just

[00:18:32] to for the nostalgia of the smell because you know that would bring me right back to those fine days

[00:18:36] and dental school course I miss like course but very best was when when you get the impression

[00:18:41] and it was a good impression and you'd pour it up and you had a bubble on the margin and you can't

[00:18:46] report it you know you're just oh my god they finally towards the end I think they started letting

[00:18:50] us use polyvinyl I feel like it was a hazing move because it's probably I was in Minnesota that

[00:18:54] 3M was like five miles away right like putting or using poly sulfide what is this but yeah

[00:18:58] yeah we had to use it poly sulfide for removable yeah partials and then polyvinyl for fix

[00:19:06] do you ever use a reversible hydrocholid yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that stuff yeah we could

[00:19:11] accurate very accurate yeah so kind of a funny story I worked with the lab at one time that was

[00:19:15] actually in Minnesota and we were talking about impressions and I still have a guy that does

[00:19:20] reversible hydrocholid yeah most of your listeners are probably gonna say I don't know what that is

[00:19:24] yeah but they somewhere in their office they may have some trade that's a tree that are hollow exactly

[00:19:28] and I never knew what it was until yeah good yeah so you could run water exactly and so anyway

[00:19:33] I'd say how do they come out and he says well he never sends anything back and I said well that's

[00:19:37] yeah I'm not surprised and he says the weird thing is is he actually mails the impressions to me

[00:19:43] doesn't pour off the model so here's this hydrophilic material that drives very very very

[00:19:48] I mean with minutes yeah exactly he sent and he sent in the impressions to him two or three days later

[00:19:53] he gets it and he never gets a crown back yeah yeah I don't know I don't want to see those

[00:19:58] quite I don't think we're probably seeing some you might be seeing some of them now right Michigan but

[00:20:02] I so my dad owned a building with with another dentist great guy is really for one of the things that

[00:20:08] so like I worked for my dad for the first year I was out of dental school and one of the things I

[00:20:12] realized that all dentists don't have this he and Ed for one thing if someone's doing like a wax

[00:20:17] upper a mock up like if you had an eventual space each one of them would come in and they're

[00:20:21] breaking they'd each kind of work at wax on it you know they have they'd have the wax torch going

[00:20:25] around like that so they'd work on their own stuff and then they'd each come back and when they

[00:20:29] were back there doing lab work they'd talk and it was like this collegial thing it was there were

[00:20:32] two separate practices but they shared the lab oh it was really cool so I thought that's what everyone

[00:20:37] did you know because like so if I'm having a bad day and you know I'm talking to Ed Ed used

[00:20:42] reversible hydrochloride so they always poured port of me and they had the thing in port so and they

[00:20:46] had a system where like literally the the assistant would come in and measure pre-measure all the

[00:20:51] stone because they were pouring stuff all the time right was like they had the system down honestly

[00:20:55] it's not I wouldn't appeal to that now but I mean it was he was a good dentist and they were

[00:21:00] it was really good that lab material had the advantage of being super hydrophilic you know

[00:21:04] well it's no no other materials really do so it was it was an easier impression to take

[00:21:09] but you're absolutely right I can't believe we're talking about reversible hydrochloride

[00:21:12] 24 I think we just I think some of your listeners just turned us off exactly how old are these guys

[00:21:17] actually they probably never even learned about it yeah that was like in even at Minnesota that was

[00:21:21] sort of it was a biomaterials history lesson on some fossils anyhow so I had another question for

[00:21:27] you when you're are you when you were like in the thick of it like let's say late 90s early 2000s

[00:21:35] all right were you going to these regional meetings a lot or was it and and when were you at

[00:21:41] your peak of going to a regional like midwinter or greater New York or him and or whatever and

[00:21:46] and when did that when did that stop when did you decide that was just you were kind of done with

[00:21:50] that you mean as a speaker yeah yeah I would say 1998 to 2004 was is every week every weekend

[00:21:58] yeah every weekend that's that's a brutal schedule and then I was doing we were doing our

[00:22:02] life patient courses the Hornbrook group where we were actually here in San Francisco in Chicago okay

[00:22:06] and so it was busy yeah it was busy um and we did for tourists one is I liked it yeah and also

[00:22:12] you know we have a saying in the speaking speaking industry is where's Casey and the sunshine band

[00:22:16] today yeah right where they were at the top of the charts going up and now they're playing a funky

[00:22:20] in the bingo casino so we used to say you know we got to you know why our light is shining we've got

[00:22:26] to keep going yeah because they're gonna ask someone else next time yeah that's a that's an interesting

[00:22:31] tape but yeah so I had to because I was on the ramp going up and also with our light patient courses

[00:22:36] the only marketing really did was my lecture let's say you know this is kind of I'll tell you a

[00:22:40] little bit about it but if you want to do it in a light patient format you should come to my course

[00:22:44] my inclusion course or whatever right so it was a marketing avenue and I liked it yeah you know

[00:22:48] that downfall was I knew you have kids you know I had two young boys at 25 and 29 I missed a lot

[00:22:54] of their yeah yeah you know when they were school plays baseball games and football games it's like

[00:22:59] yeah sorry I'm not gonna be there Friday night right yeah and so you know after doing that for a lot

[00:23:04] and I still speak a lot but not like I used to yeah yeah yeah you know and I mean I you were on every

[00:23:10] I mean you were on every when I go to a meeting you were on the on the schedule everywhere it's

[00:23:13] that's a lot of travel man whoo yeah yeah it was a lot of travel yeah and now it's you know

[00:23:18] I've stepped back and I do go to the meetings that I want to go to interesting you know

[00:23:22] the veteran yeah is a good example of a funding meeting no one knows about it yeah

[00:23:26] yeah yeah yeah that was like two and a half days yeah that I spoke yeah constantly I mean the one

[00:23:31] nice thing I remember about that is you know I have so much material that I don't really get to share

[00:23:36] right and so two and a half days is like holy cow I hope I have enough material yeah yeah but it got

[00:23:41] to be I don't know if you remember it's got okay listen tomorrow we've got another day yeah what do

[00:23:44] you ask that how do you want to get here yeah yeah because I've got all these modules that I can poke

[00:23:49] in yeah taking bites or or adjusting crowns or polishing stuff you know there's so much stuff that

[00:23:54] was really fun yeah literally it's like I shared every yeah yeah yeah and I mean any other

[00:24:00] thing about better is a small enough meeting it's like there's a lot of interaction like you get like

[00:24:04] I mean as a speaker there you're gonna go and do something on the I don't even know what you did

[00:24:08] I know we podcasted on Saturday but I mean usually they'll take I'm everyone Frank Spear came

[00:24:12] they took him fishing and you know some people like to bike some people I mean God only knows

[00:24:16] there will be Michigan game on and there will be a lot of people watching that but but it's it's

[00:24:20] this interesting fall tradition for me and again it's like because I only know what I know I'm like

[00:24:25] so everyone doesn't have this cool thing that they go to in the fall and we get to share with all

[00:24:29] these big speakers I've gotten to know you know shoot I got to go to dinner with Jeff Ocasin yeah

[00:24:34] you know we had Frank Spear came the very first time I went because I just graduated from dental

[00:24:41] school and then the next year oh this guy by name of John Coise came like really yeah I looked at

[00:24:45] the list of previous speakers it's like you know there's Dawson yeah and and Bill Strapp and

[00:24:52] man these guys have been spoiled yeah amazing yeah amazing educated and so funny every year

[00:24:57] they're like well what happens is there's not a lot of new people coming in that's a little

[00:25:00] you saw there's a lot of gray hairs there's a lot of guys doing prex dentistry they still show up

[00:25:04] so their life members they technically don't even have to pay in so we don't have that many

[00:25:08] regular members but here's the thing it used to be like 250 bucks for membership for the members

[00:25:14] a year and you get that meeting so that's two and a half days with the top notch speaker and then

[00:25:18] there's a spring meeting which is like a one day thing also top notch speakers and 255 to get

[00:25:24] that's the same your playing ticket to go see okay yeah so they're like they had a meeting last

[00:25:29] time well we're gonna probably have to to raise the fees a little bit more and every member is

[00:25:33] they're just raised the fees there's no one complaining about it because what okay so you raise

[00:25:37] the fees to 400 bucks yeah exactly it's unbelievable and it's the best deal going I keep saying

[00:25:44] this and I have had a few listeners come well when you were there we had four people we had

[00:25:49] you know people coming from well Oregon and we had remember we had someone that flew in

[00:25:54] and they're listeners and it is a it's a really cool it's a really cool meeting it's kind of figure

[00:25:59] there's probably regional stuff like that in ball ball parts yeah maybe I don't know two I don't

[00:26:04] know two and a half days yeah and with the quality speakers yeah that you that you bring in yeah

[00:26:08] um I mean that was special it was very cool especially because you guys knew all each other yeah

[00:26:12] to be a very educated right and again as a speaker it's like I got to make sure that I can

[00:26:17] deliver yeah with something that they can say I don't want to say oh I've heard this before

[00:26:21] yeah yeah yeah he's not as good as a previous speaker yeah and keeping up to date with an

[00:26:26] educated group which I always love because he keep me on my toes yeah and a group that all know

[00:26:30] each other so they'll the last questions yeah yeah you know if this is a exact it's a really good

[00:26:34] point yeah and you know in a big group I always say the larger the group of less questions you're

[00:26:37] gonna yeah that's when they bombard you at the end of the program yeah exactly you know like I

[00:26:42] I vice-peak at greater New York yeah I did this last fall is you know when there's 500 people

[00:26:47] on it they're not going to raise their hands yeah yeah but they're all coming afterwards where that is

[00:26:51] such a funny thing the veteran they're gonna ask all kinds of questions the people play yes which I love

[00:26:55] as an educator wait there's a few guys that we used to just cheer at because they were the ones who

[00:26:58] would always ask the dumb question in the middle of you know if you say there's no dumb question

[00:27:02] few dumb questions yeah they'd be most honest but then yeah that's but like the laugh is is that we all

[00:27:07] know each other well enough to know we know who's gonna ask the questions yeah and it's Northwest

[00:27:11] Michigan in the fall which isn't a horror but it's not a hard sell it's really nice up there

[00:27:14] yeah it was nice colors and all that stuff so it's a good deal so I need to play this for all the

[00:27:17] speakers that haven't been up there yeah they need to come I'm trying to court some of the

[00:27:21] spear guys that have a lot of the spear guys have been there but some of them haven't and just just

[00:27:24] the heads up me whoever is listening to this thing don't want to make sure you're bringing

[00:27:28] enough stuff yeah right right otherwise Sunday morning you're gonna be sitting around huh I don't

[00:27:32] really have any slides to have what do we want to talk about right that's it's it's funny and it's

[00:27:37] kind of a it's a good problem to have for the people listening anyhow so it's it's it's cool to

[00:27:41] have a study club it's cool to have that interaction and Michigan Michigan has kind of it is it's a

[00:27:47] tight group it's amazing that it's such a tight group but it is tight yeah I'm from kind of

[00:27:50] proud of it and again midwinter was something my dad had a tradition coming and so I've been

[00:27:55] coming here forever and he got me into the better society so having someone that went ahead was

[00:27:59] pretty great for me you know yeah it's it's kind of cool he's still alive oh yeah yeah he's

[00:28:05] he he doesn't practice anymore in a but what was the case we have a Michigan mission mission of

[00:28:11] mercy that's such a cool thing the other guy that at the better he and my dad's best friend from

[00:28:17] dental school they always meet up at the better and they've been you know they've literally been

[00:28:20] best friends since since they were in dental school so right and uh they do they kind of run the

[00:28:25] removable part of mission of mercy which is basically flippers you know you're basically so what

[00:28:30] happens is they get in the chair or the patients get in the chair early on they put a panel up they

[00:28:35] look at it my dad and Joe kind of treat and plan the case they send them off to surgery to see what

[00:28:39] teeth are going to take out but they take the impressions first then they send it to the lab and they've

[00:28:43] got all these unbelievable removal guys doing stuff like right there on the spot you know cold cure it's

[00:28:48] it's a pretty cool thing yeah that is awesome he's he's so he's still doing that oh yeah oh yeah

[00:28:52] he's way in on the mission of mercy stuff so yeah it's kind of so what does he think about how old is

[00:28:56] he he's 81 okay so he was using poly sulfides to take impressions so what does he think about

[00:29:03] how fat fast things or at least how different they are now as he looks at scanners yeah looks at

[00:29:08] modelist crown he's he's it's really funny I think because he's seen me do it he knows that it's

[00:29:14] he knows that it's a thing he never really I don't think he ever used a scan I mean he was using

[00:29:18] digital stuff I mean he would he was having you know he used milled zirconia so digital is that's

[00:29:24] how you do it I mean uh so it's not like he's under but he never had a scanner he's seen my scanner

[00:29:29] because he worked in my it's really funny I worked in his practice and I got down school

[00:29:32] and he worked in my practice kind of part time right um when he was when he had sold his practice

[00:29:37] and uh I think he misses it a little but I think he's gonna be listening to this so I shouldn't say

[00:29:42] this but like part of it is like I don't want him to miss it because he's like he deserves to be

[00:29:47] retired too yeah like you know a lot of retired Dennis and you probably heard from a lot of them that

[00:29:52] they wish they hadn't retired as early but if you have a little time away from it you can look back

[00:29:56] on appreciating that you liked it yeah without because I hope when I'm done I'm actually done

[00:30:02] I know that I never really liked dentistry but like part of it is I don't want to be

[00:30:06] pining for what I had yeah yeah yeah and I think I think that happens in almost every career you

[00:30:11] know look at some of these pro athletes where yeah they've got to be done but they miss

[00:30:15] they miss the glory days absolutely which the glory days in our practice you know it'd be a

[00:30:20] patient saying you know this looks amazing and I love you as a dentist right you're arguing to miss

[00:30:24] that yeah I mean and what's really interesting okay so my practice is in Saginaw he practiced

[00:30:28] in a town called Midland they're both smaller towns and they're 20 25 minutes away from each other

[00:30:34] I have a ton of his patients in Saginaw that used to be in Midland and I think that the last name

[00:30:39] has helped a lot yeah and I look at him like actually probably of my new patient days it

[00:30:44] consistently is patients from his practice he he knows that he knows that I don't think he knows how

[00:30:50] many I should probably show him the list sometime I don't I don't think he knows how many it's kind

[00:30:53] of amazing so like that's a great marketing technique I didn't plan it that way absolutely

[00:30:57] fun and tension that worked out pretty good though I scored a lot of this a lot of his

[00:31:01] vision so I will say this this is something funny and I want to get your take on this I have been

[00:31:06] in multiple meetings with marketing people from companies this weekend this weekend um I won't

[00:31:14] I'll tell you offline who they are because there are people you know but what what I'm

[00:31:17] injury what's interesting to me is how hard it is to measure how marketing gets to the end user

[00:31:25] in other words like the marketing people over here are convinced they have the right way to get

[00:31:30] to it but it's really hard to measure like how do you know why someone bought this bonding agent

[00:31:35] how do you know why someone chose this lab how do you know and like for all of the technology we have

[00:31:42] I'm here and people that are way high up and they are asking questions that I felt like would be

[00:31:47] obvious answered and they're not answerable it's like do you know what I'm talking about yeah

[00:31:52] like it's funny to me that like marketing the budgets are huge and you're talking about

[00:31:57] dental manufacturers yeah exactly exactly the marketing budgets are kind of huge and they don't

[00:32:03] have much feedback on what's working and what's not yeah and it is really hard to tell um

[00:32:08] what is the dentist are getting multiple exposures for the same thing yeah right so if they bought

[00:32:13] that's used example three them like there's scotch one universal yeah

[00:32:16] yeah is three M's got lucky to say okay we've got 20 users in say where did they actually hear

[00:32:23] about it and where should we spend money yeah right was it an ad and dentistry today or inside

[00:32:27] dentistry they have to glance that and say I want to use it yeah was it the rep that showed up

[00:32:30] yeah was it a huge giant million dollar booths at Chicago mid-winner yeah was it a speaker

[00:32:35] that they saw in a funky little could be a study club or could be another major meeting

[00:32:41] or did they see someone that posted on social medians and this is what they used

[00:32:45] or did they go to the university minnesota and all the materials they've ever used were three M

[00:32:48] and so the three M is a whole has a big spot in their brain which is me honestly to be honest but

[00:32:53] but I that's a lot of ways that you could be exposed to your product so as a manufacturer

[00:32:59] because I good you know you had the opportunity to talk to these people you know I'm in a relationship

[00:33:03] with different manufacturers just friends yeah and where they think the money is not well spent

[00:33:08] or big meetings yeah because these booths yeah you know the simple walk it'll be 500 to 500

[00:33:14] thousand two million dollars by the time they fly routes in yeah and is that really a good use

[00:33:19] of their investment and a lot of these manufacturers that have always been you know mainstays

[00:33:24] at these big meetings that's are no longer there yeah yeah you know yeah I've a card for example

[00:33:28] you know they're they're not going to they didn't joke greater New York yeah you know

[00:33:31] you know and that's a huge meeting they should have always been yeah and three and

[00:33:35] you remember in years past in years past I've a cloud with the midwinter would have an entire like

[00:33:40] the entire length of one aisle was them I remember that yeah it cost me a million dollars yeah yeah

[00:33:45] yeah it's it and I mean like even even the companies show up are doing something smaller typically

[00:33:49] well okay so I'm a three shape it's got one little booth yeah I know right they got three

[00:33:54] eight it's crazy to think that okay so and you remember okay so I always frame this because I

[00:33:59] would you know late 90s 98 99 when I'd come to the midwinter I wasn't making the best choices anyhow

[00:34:05] but when I come to the midwinter there's a lot of stuff I had never seen before because the internet

[00:34:09] just wasn't the right like like like you couldn't get information the way you can now yeah I mean

[00:34:14] anything you see here you can find five YouTube videos of someone using it you can go to their

[00:34:19] website and get more information than you ever want you can go on Facebook and see what people

[00:34:23] I mean there's a lot of ways to get information go on podcast you can all the stuff I'd come in here

[00:34:28] and literally oh my god I've never seen something like this and I'd buy it because I was idiot so

[00:34:32] like literally I would come back from the midwinter forgotten what I bought like it come in

[00:34:37] vibes like oh yeah I was making the best choices there but now I can't imagine going to a booth

[00:34:44] that I haven't already researched a little bit like I don't stumble across stuff very much

[00:34:48] kind of what you were saying earlier absolutely and you know I used to say I'm meeting like this

[00:34:51] because this is my favorite meaning is it was like I could go into Toys R Us it is it just I mean

[00:34:56] you couldn't get away from this booth because of all these cool toys right then you go in the other

[00:35:00] booth and you can't just like you I'd buy a bunch of crap yeah that I go back and say you know I

[00:35:05] didn't really need this yeah yeah that's the way everyone's got that shelf you know the shelf

[00:35:09] yeah back where that yet this is gonna change your practice you literally never used it and we never

[00:35:13] throw it away because of dentists yeah we're we're hoarders I had I had an air abrasion unit the full

[00:35:18] on had its own compressor and everything like that the thing literally out of the box never worked

[00:35:22] it was terrible it was I finally when I when I moved I mean I've said this before I said you know

[00:35:30] you could use that as a boat anchor and it would float that's how bad the thing was terrible I

[00:35:35] finally when I moved out of my old office I finally threw it away like I could have sold it on eBay

[00:35:39] but I didn't even want to curse anyone else whether it was so bad I think it was like it was like a

[00:35:44] a cinder block around my neck but it was one of things where I bought it because I was convinced

[00:35:48] it was gonna change everything it's not the air abrasion has a lot of good that was not one of them

[00:35:52] but it's got a lot of good uses I just sort of laugh a little bit about about how how it was like

[00:35:57] that I have my shelf I still have my shelf it's not as big as it used to be let's just say that

[00:36:02] it's but I mean I'm glad to hear that's been like you has also made those mistakes I have my

[00:36:07] shelf that still has my surveyor from dental school yeah yeah yeah you know which I haven't done any

[00:36:11] removable in 25 years yeah and I still have my electromallet again most your listeners are gonna say I

[00:36:16] don't know what that is right but for the gold foil it's like when was the last time I did that

[00:36:19] in dental school yeah you know the guy who taught removal of University so he used to call gold

[00:36:23] well a pre-endow is what he called because the gold the electromat mallet was basically a powered

[00:36:30] little mini jackhammer that compacted gold well so everyone's while you run across a gold foil

[00:36:37] in a patient and of course they're pristine they look amazing they like literally they are

[00:36:41] they fight decay for the patient it's amazing but it is amazing how well they fit it's not the ability

[00:36:47] yeah really hard really hard really hard I see him in California occasionally because we were like

[00:36:53] the last holdout their gold foil has had to be done on the board that's right I remember right

[00:36:57] and so you had to pray in school I had to do 20 of my patients so you're like looking for patients

[00:37:01] you know and in fact we did a case through one of our courses two years ago and it was an older

[00:37:08] dentist yeah that his daughter now he wanted her to go through the course and do veneers on it right

[00:37:13] and he had a class five gold foil on two number four yeah and so you know inherently I like

[00:37:18] him say okay so when you prep that just make a little deeper and take that out and he says no I

[00:37:21] don't want to take it out no way and I said when you mean he goes no I don't want to take it out yeah

[00:37:25] I said so you want us to just put the veneer over that yeah foil yeah I wanted to stay and it was

[00:37:31] like dude that's not a good idea but I totally kind of emotionally get it yeah he's attacked because

[00:37:37] I see it and they you're right they all look good and yeah patient say it's been in their 50 years

[00:37:40] 60 years like holy cow yeah I just it's what's interesting to me is how the marketing aspects like we

[00:37:47] were talking about how how tough it is to it's tough to measure where people are hearing so it's

[00:37:53] like of course if you if you could measure that well you put your resources more into what's

[00:37:57] reacting the reality is probably what's measuring well today might not measure well in six months

[00:38:02] you don't even know so like not only do they not have the information the information probably

[00:38:06] changes a lot like depending on what's being out there social media has made a huge impact on that

[00:38:11] I'm sure because you got all the Instagram Dennis putting out their their highlight reals not showing

[00:38:15] you know their failures and making you feel like you're terrible Dennis and all that stuff and so

[00:38:20] I feel bad for the companies I feel bad for the companies and when I you know I feel bad for

[00:38:25] a company that feels like they have to do this because it's what they've always done even though

[00:38:28] it's probably not doing what they're using and a lot of them do that yeah yeah and you're at the ROI

[00:38:32] and a lot of these companies you know as someone will go by the booth they'll see something then they'll

[00:38:37] just go right over to the shine or pat us for bank of booth and order it yeah and and the

[00:38:43] the manufacturer at the meeting didn't take the order so they don't know did you know where to come from

[00:38:47] yeah right yeah and so you're so my understanding too is that the the the the the the man

[00:38:53] or the the people that the shines and patterns and I think they share a lot of their information with

[00:38:58] but I don't know that they have to I don't know that they all yeah but like on some level if you

[00:39:03] don't know like how would 3M know that I'm using their composites if I'm buying it from X versus Y

[00:39:09] how would they even how do you know that's probably probably someone could tell me that but yeah

[00:39:13] that's a good question I don't know I don't think well I'm so it's like amazing how how much

[00:39:19] technology we have and how literally being in these meetings like these I feel terrible for

[00:39:23] these marketing people but they don't really know very much well it's a really hard the whole

[00:39:27] thing of ROI which used to be like you know the benchmark should we do this next year should

[00:39:32] do this again or next time yeah they have no idea whether this was a good investment yeah

[00:39:37] and a lot of these manufacturers especially like giving example the American Academy of Cosmetic

[00:39:41] Denyship meeting AECD a lot of people I want to say the manufacturers they only go because they

[00:39:47] they think the doctors there expect for them to be there sure yeah they don't sell anything because

[00:39:51] all the doctors are using that crap anyway yes they're educated yeah they've got to put on some

[00:39:55] big party because they've always had what they've done this party exactly and so it's like you know

[00:40:00] it's talking to someone last night I want to tell you the company and I said is it a good investment

[00:40:04] he says no there's no the ROI is zero can you imagine we don't make any money it's time consuming

[00:40:10] they have to send a bunch of reps yeah because all these people expect for us to be there yeah

[00:40:14] I wonder what wonder what it's going to look like in 25 years is there going to come a time where

[00:40:18] most of you like these are not worth it and so these meetings are just good dry up hard to believe

[00:40:21] that the midwinter could dry up I mean it still looks pretty busy yeah it's busy um I don't

[00:40:25] you know once Amazon gets bigger in the dentistry right you know people are gonna be I feel like

[00:40:30] I feel like I feel like at what point did they look at their budget and go okay this is a great

[00:40:34] meeting we've been doing this forever but we're losing our asses on it it's just not worth it I

[00:40:38] mean I can see that happening oh it's already happening yeah it's already happening I

[00:40:42] got said a major manufacturer it's been there forever no longer has a booth the greater

[00:40:46] new work yeah yeah and that's like what you know that's the largest meaning there is you know

[00:40:50] where they're really well represented is the friggin lab day that's like the lab day I think

[00:40:54] it's probably growing versus the huge huge you know man maybe they need to take the

[00:40:58] really one is is a lot of those manufacturers are really in in the evolution of materials

[00:41:04] and materials and technology and printers printers mill and yeah and the turtles and they also see

[00:41:10] that if they sell a product or a technology or even a philosophy to a ceramist they've just touched

[00:41:18] 25 docs yeah 25 to 150 really really interesting point right yeah because now the ceramist goes

[00:41:23] back and says hey I got a new printer this is absolutely amazing you should be starting to do more

[00:41:28] of this yeah a news or a conia that's really translucent but strong you should be using this

[00:41:33] so he just educated his 50 docs or 10 docs yeah and that's that's a great our that's a really good

[00:41:38] point so that makes a lot of sense makes a lot of sense oh I never thought about that even with

[00:41:43] dent in bonding you know they say 60% of education on adhesives and cement are given to

[00:41:50] a dentist by their laboratory lab oh wow that's the laboratory and then they educate all their

[00:41:55] docs yeah that's an interesting thing so in your clinical stuff you do have a lab technician

[00:42:00] right in the office I do not you don't okay so no mind you newtos yes so you're okay so

[00:42:04] you're like the rest of us jump that's absolutely so then the question comes down to me how much

[00:42:10] are how much printing are you doing in your office do you print much not very much okay I don't

[00:42:14] do a lot of printing one is for me like I know there's there's amazing people out there they're

[00:42:19] on Facebook and Instagram that are printing you know all their temporary for their full

[00:42:23] must-rehears the way I make my temperies like for 10 veneers you they're still washing it off yeah

[00:42:29] or curing yeah and the patients out the door yeah that's right that's good point and so it doesn't

[00:42:33] work with my workflow right now yeah yeah also restored materials and I was going to

[00:42:37] gonna touch up touch on this I think a huge void right now is the restored materials it can

[00:42:42] be printed yeah they're out there that's it's it's coming along but it's not there yet yeah but

[00:42:46] being abused yeah we're gonna see so much problems with with these different materials that are

[00:42:51] printed the docs are putting coverage crowd you think the resin stuff is like I see a ton of people

[00:42:55] with well okay I someone's telling me about a resin that's 51% ceramic and they're like yeah

[00:43:00] you should be doing all your fillings in this and all of them like maybe not maybe not well they say

[00:43:05] that they say that and you know then they get the 88 to call you know 3M did that with level to

[00:43:10] where where they were able to call a ceramic crown 50 to 60% filled my direct composite I don't

[00:43:17] care what you're using from homicroma to emperors direct to hercule that's 75 to 80% glass yeah

[00:43:23] yeah so I actually have more glass in it yeah then the printed yeah and I think people you know

[00:43:28] again I look at I look at Instagram and Facebook and they're saying you don't only cost me five

[00:43:31] bucks and everyone's excited about that yeah yeah same visit the printing but you know there's good

[00:43:36] data now they don't have good wear resistance yeah yeah so yeah you'll put it in it looks really good

[00:43:40] it was quick caution nothing yeah but we're gonna see a lot of failures and I think and the other

[00:43:45] thing is you look at manufacturers the big ones the ones that are that are typically mature

[00:43:51] indirect materials based yeah right I have a car Vita Jensen GC yeah they're not making

[00:43:58] they're not doing their R&D right now on printed really aren't they really it's an interesting

[00:44:02] point yeah it's these smaller manufacturers like that I have a sprint right yeah I think it's

[00:44:06] a great machine and they have a very crown yeah doesn't have a good wear resistance

[00:44:09] I think we'd make a good long term temporary yeah yeah but that's not there for takes

[00:44:14] for praise for take is not restored in materials yeah yeah they're a printing company so that's where

[00:44:19] I'm excited when we get to the point that we can print materials that'll hold up like our

[00:44:24] interacts either pressed or yeah or milled now and so we'll see I mean that's could come back

[00:44:29] you know and it's uh it's interesting to get back I do have a printer I don't use it very often

[00:44:35] I print models with it I don't do implants I don't need surgical guide um you know I could do

[00:44:41] splints but by the time I cut off all the sprues and polish it yeah yeah it's my workflow in my

[00:44:45] office it doesn't make sense yeah yeah but I see people that are doing amazing things sure are you

[00:44:50] printing no I'm not I'm gonna say I'm gonna go in probably with my well my lab technicians looking

[00:44:55] at a printer of course now that we're in the same building and stuff I might I might find myself

[00:44:59] trying to do it more yeah um I but you know there's also a little bit of the enthusiast gap some of

[00:45:04] these people just really are into it like they want to play with it it's like you know like

[00:45:08] the same guy that might have wanted to wax everything maybe this is kind of their enthusiasm thing

[00:45:12] I'm not like if I were younger I might have been there I'm just like yeah you know I'm fine with

[00:45:17] that's you know the lab technicians are gonna be better at that than I am any any day to week and it's

[00:45:21] the fine with me yeah and like I said you know you mentioned with your lab guy if you're not printing

[00:45:26] as a lab there's a good chance you're gonna lose doctors or doctors will not come to you now give

[00:45:30] you a good example just this week I had a case where a patient came in needs a full mouth rehab she

[00:45:35] flew in from Los Angeles and she wants to use a certain lab yeah right in San Diego he's

[00:45:42] a very good ceramic I used him years and years ago but she's a friend with his son she goes I

[00:45:47] want to use that I said no problem I mean Mike's a good ceramic you know when he's been educated he's

[00:45:52] been through my courses he's got inclusion philosophy that I can teach and so I call him I said hey

[00:45:57] we're gonna take scans today and he says I don't take scans and I said what yeah and he said I

[00:46:02] just don't take scans he said if you want to scan it and go and have someone else printed and bring

[00:46:06] it to me I'll work on it and I said Mike that doesn't work for me yeah you know my workflow I'm scanning

[00:46:11] everything as far as my indirect dentist right yeah and so we end up I can't use him because it

[00:46:18] doesn't work in my workflow and that's a big case for him yeah right 28 units at 400 bucks I mean

[00:46:24] that's just do them out that's a big money for him yeah and I feel like that would be enough for him

[00:46:28] to figure out how it takes he ends you know it's a I get it yeah he said just take poly

[00:46:32] models and I said I don't want to take poly models yeah that's that was my workflow a year ago

[00:46:36] yeah two or five or certainly yeah five to ten years ago it's not my workflow now and so

[00:46:40] this is a really difficult challenging case do I want to completely change my workflow because my

[00:46:45] ceramics doesn't use the technology that I use right and then it became a very heated issue yeah

[00:46:50] because the patient is the friend of the lab and when it and so I just I just don't know I won't do it

[00:46:56] yeah unless I use a lab that can yeah that can utilize my technology right yeah and so he lost

[00:47:02] a potential client or a potential great big case yeah because he didn't buy a printer yeah

[00:47:08] incentive man it's I mean there's there's labs are gonna have to make that decision I think

[00:47:12] that decision could be made foremost labs come up any house and they're getting more affordable sure

[00:47:16] there you know another they're not too big and they're affordable used to be that they would charge

[00:47:20] a lab an arm like to to have their own portal in the software I don't think any of them do that now

[00:47:24] I mean like you got to get easy enough for them I had a lab that I stopped using because they

[00:47:27] didn't use the portal from my scanner they did other scan they used a portal from my scanner like

[00:47:33] really like it doesn't cost anything you just have to go through their 20 minute training thing

[00:47:36] but they wouldn't do it so it was just interesting I'm curious and you don't have to tell me if

[00:47:40] you don't want to what's your favorite scanner what do you like for scanners I like the trios okay

[00:47:43] I like this reshape because I don't do removable I don't do in visline I use trays which is

[00:47:48] a competitor in visline sure and so I don't really you don't need to be in yeah and so since

[00:47:54] what's all I do is is restorative in direct dentistry the trios seamlessly yeah goes right into

[00:48:01] the three shapes software which so you talk to the software and your lab guys are using software too

[00:48:06] yeah yeah and I mean we could go around all these different scanners and they would say oh yeah

[00:48:10] the labs like ours best you know I will tell you of being involved in the laboratory

[00:48:15] because I think like a lab technician being involved with Utah Valley and being intimately involved

[00:48:20] in their technology they will all tell you their favorite scanners trios yeah interesting

[00:48:25] and trios which is three shapes used to be the most expensive it's very affordable

[00:48:29] I just bought it so I literally got 24 grand I podcasted with with one of this one of the trios

[00:48:34] guys here and it was really interesting because one of the reasons I remember early on the podcast

[00:48:39] days I'm like I'm not gonna spend $50,000 on a technology that I'm not very familiar with

[00:48:43] every single trios is the one you got to get and like I'm just not gonna do it and I but now

[00:48:47] price point seems to be trios is decided they want it they they're they want to be competitive

[00:48:52] with everyone and they are do you have the five or four or five and a four okay I'm looking

[00:48:58] hard at the five I mean that it was pretty compelling and I in the other thing that's funny

[00:49:02] I talked to him my team is a little still intimidated by I haven't met it I 700 do say and it's

[00:49:07] a fine scanner they're a little intimidated by it and it's not I mean they I do a lot more

[00:49:12] scanning than I want to in the sense that I think from the five I think you could probably

[00:49:19] teach a homeless guy on this screen scan really well maybe like it's it's not it's it's closer to

[00:49:25] idiot proof than what I have and I think closer to idiot proof makes it a little less intimidating

[00:49:30] I think I think so too and it's faster yeah and you know being wireless and you know there's so

[00:49:34] many things that so I do zero scanning yeah you know my assistant scan everything and I just

[00:49:41] have this conversation yesterday with someone said what do you do when this encounters I said

[00:49:45] honestly I don't know I don't know I have no idea I would even know what it's like asking about

[00:49:50] how you know I don't know the invoicing works right no idea why would I know that I know I always

[00:49:54] try I try to always ask educated you know I think I educated at the end of the visit I say

[00:49:58] did you post process that oh yeah we did it's like I don't really know what that means but it's

[00:50:02] sounded like I knew what it's right that's good to hear that and I just got new assistant and you

[00:50:06] know she worked with Sarah for a little bit of previous office yeah and she moved right in the

[00:50:11] trios for her was faster yeah more accurate she's comfortable and the icons were we're very

[00:50:17] used to friendly more intuitive yeah so I think you're absolutely right and you know it's interesting

[00:50:21] going on that too because I talked to another company that's earlier last year started to dabble

[00:50:26] I would not get any other company but started to dabble in scanners they thought yeah will be a

[00:50:30] scanner too yeah and now they decided to pull out because they thought there was a slot yeah

[00:50:36] something that was better supported than met it maybe it met it has good support but people don't

[00:50:41] know about it right at 15 to 17 grand something between that price point and the 40,000 dollar trios

[00:50:50] yeah filled that void yeah yeah and so they were all excited they were going to come in at 21

[00:50:54] grand they're gonna take over in the market and now I just talked to him yesterday and I asked

[00:50:57] coming in house a scanner going and they said we're gonna pull the plug on it well I get because

[00:51:01] it didn't fit and trios has such a market share unless you're in a misaligned user and you're

[00:51:06] gonna use that did you okay I'm gonna ask you this did you get to see the lumina which is just out like

[00:51:11] last I do yeah I don't know primarily because I'm not in the market yeah I'm not looking at it either

[00:51:16] I know I saw some people say that's pretty cool but I mean like their price point is back where

[00:51:21] the trios was you know and then but I suppose you know if you're if you're a big and visline person

[00:51:25] you're gonna probably get it I mean it's just like it apparently it's got a much bigger scan

[00:51:30] area so it's pretty fast okay I mean yeah if on some level they've got a they've got a little

[00:51:36] lock on the market for people that are really doing in visline it's like you and I aren't doing

[00:51:39] a visline so it's not yeah it's not really it's not I need to get into my world here and I have

[00:51:43] some friends that that they'll have the itaro because they do a lot of them in business but they

[00:51:48] don't really like it for credit for it exactly so they buy trios so that they can do all their

[00:51:52] restorative and they and they save their itaro further in visline yeah it's that's an interesting

[00:51:55] the whole marketing on that is the in the market of scanners is an interesting thing you kind of

[00:52:00] cover it well but yeah there's like there's like different levels you can come in I think it's great

[00:52:04] to do I think so too because having someone be able to get in like on the low end of the

[00:52:09] meta to test the water yeah and now well now I almost wonder why bother it's not that much more

[00:52:15] expensive to go to the high end of the trios I agree it's I pay 24 grand yeah I mean you know

[00:52:20] that's not I mean five years ago that's a 50 plus thousand dollar thing and it had a cordon

[00:52:25] you know and that's the other thing with with the technology we saw this with lasers big time they

[00:52:31] enter the market it's really cool it's really really exciting everyone should have one but it's

[00:52:35] 60 grand yeah like my first diode was $49,000 in 1995 and you're rolling around it's an Austrian

[00:52:42] company that was amazing and I would tell people hey you know Alan you need a diode laser and you

[00:52:47] say how much and I'd say $49,000 and you'd say that's not going to happen yeah I mean in 1995

[00:52:52] this CEREC was $29,000 so it was twice as much as it's right five years later I'd say you need to buy

[00:52:57] one now but it's 29 grand yeah say I don't think so yeah and now there are three to four grand or

[00:53:03] they're more mobile they're wireless foot pedals yeah some are even pens putting your pocket exactly

[00:53:07] yeah and so I think a lot of you know people like in our age when the scanners first came out the

[00:53:13] first thing I said was yeah it's really cool I do need that but it's 50 grand yeah and based on

[00:53:18] what I've seen with computer technology whether it be laptop or with the BI phone two years for now

[00:53:23] it's going to be better and it's going to be half the price yeah in two years from there it's

[00:53:26] going to be better and half the price it's real and then then this the tough part is okay when do

[00:53:31] I go I get into it because you're always going to feel like you bought at the wrong time uh-huh

[00:53:36] as a dentist you know literally I think I got I think I got my first medit scanner no it wasn't that

[00:53:44] I get no I got the second medit scanner the i700 and like the next day they release the i600

[00:53:50] yeah which in him's like of course sorry man so yeah you're always going to buy it the wrong time

[00:53:54] but the reality is now I would not hesitate to tell anyone who's interested in digital just

[00:54:00] jumping wherever because you're at a point where you can hardly go wrong I mean you can hardly

[00:54:05] go wrong I totally agree and and you look at the price of impression materials yeah not only

[00:54:08] as a time saving it's a marketing tool or creating value tool for your patients they're fascinated

[00:54:13] as you mentioned and you're saving money on by not using impression material and for all your

[00:54:19] listeners they've taken an impression more than once several times in their career yeah and if

[00:54:24] they're doing a full arts that's about forty forty dollars yeah you're losing 80 bucks for their

[00:54:28] impression yeah for a crown the cost of 150 bucks yeah and when you can scan and save the time yeah

[00:54:33] I think we are at the point that twenty twenty to thirty thousand dollars it makes sense yeah

[00:54:38] and then you got to look at it as a throw away piece of equipment you do you do have my true doubt

[00:54:43] I paid 15 grand for yeah and it's I don't throw it away because I'm the dental hoarder but it's

[00:54:48] sitting someone wants to buy it you know why would you buy something that I hear you're

[00:54:52] personal here's the trick you know what I did I sold it to my local dental assisting school

[00:54:57] and I think I got five hundred bucks for it and you know what happened the school didn't buy

[00:55:03] it was this is so bad I should have just given it to him I'm a horrible person I don't think I

[00:55:07] did the deal I think it might have been my assistant that did the deal has that right there she's

[00:55:11] on her in the box exactly well I mean that's what she's there for right they paid they that

[00:55:15] students took up a collection to buy this thing yes so I definitely should have given it to him

[00:55:19] what a giant ass I am but in any case I actually sold it yeah I would give mine just get out of my

[00:55:24] closet exactly we're years on the big wheels or was yours a little suitcase one I had the suitcase

[00:55:28] yeah no one was on the wheels yeah wheel around I do wish that they had a camera as small as that

[00:55:33] but I mean honestly I have to be close pretty close yeah it's pretty close so yeah I wouldn't

[00:55:38] hesitate to to recommend anyone getting digital if you're ready the other thing is I took

[00:55:42] I took an impression I can't remember exactly why I had to take the poly vinyl I don't know exactly

[00:55:46] why I took one is let the couple weeks ago goddamn I had I had to take it twice like and I'm

[00:55:52] wearing myself I'm like oh I remember this I remember why this was so frustrating oh man

[00:55:57] and you know you're thinking yourself you don't get it all well you can just go back and get it

[00:56:00] yeah which is like and I know you're not even scanned so you didn't even deal with this problem or

[00:56:03] but the reality is it's like you you know you got it before you're done yeah it's really there's

[00:56:07] yeah yeah I do advantages are huge so it's interesting about the poly vinyl deal so you know we're

[00:56:12] in the middle of a live patient course right now in here in case and we hook up each of the

[00:56:15] doctors that attend with the ceramic team yeah and so they got to send in pre-op models and then

[00:56:20] we go over small design with and we have waxed up stunned yeah and about 50% of them were sent

[00:56:24] sent in polyvinyl yeah the other 50% are our prints scanned and then we print them and as I look

[00:56:30] at those with the ceramics I mean the quality and the accuracy of the printed model compared to the

[00:56:35] stone was there flash they didn't get a palette very well and you can't read the margins always

[00:56:40] and this is just for a diagnostic wax up it still needs to be unbelievably accurate yeah and I look

[00:56:44] at those and I'm like now I know why I do this yeah you know it's it's funny too because I know

[00:56:49] there's a lot of labs like say well if you can't take a good polyvinyl impression you can't take

[00:56:53] a good scan I'm like I don't know maybe maybe the computer is probably smarter than I am a little bit

[00:56:59] yeah that's all right and you can see it you can blow it yeah I mean how many times and you know

[00:57:03] I can say I have where I look at the impression say that looks good to me yeah then lab calls me

[00:57:07] and says man miss you know you got a you got a big weird thing on the facial of that it's like what

[00:57:12] I didn't see that yeah they said they sent me a photo of the model it's like how the hell did I

[00:57:16] not see that I poured a removal model last week I poured it myself and yeah yeah that's yeah that was

[00:57:25] on me that's on me yeah it's like I and I so I mean I there are people talking about that that

[00:57:30] Trio's five for removable so that's a little sexy too I mean that's a thought process yeah and I

[00:57:35] think we're almost here you know the hard time the hard thing about that because there are people

[00:57:38] that say you can be completely digital in the denture right I don't I don't do dentures but

[00:57:43] see what's coming through the lab digital dentures digital dentures are definitely answer yeah because

[00:57:48] one is we talked about it earlier the the world of technicians that do removable wax teeth

[00:57:55] mouth teeth yeah that's such a some and they're all 50 to 60 seven years old they're retired and

[00:58:01] you can't find some kid that wants to come in and wax and your teeth yeah right um but I think

[00:58:08] the difficulty with you they're angry too they're angry about digital but I don't think they can

[00:58:12] unfortunately they're they're screaming into the void because it's a giant wave coming whether

[00:58:17] it's coming it's coming it's coming but I think it's difficult to get a boredom molding and

[00:58:23] get a functional denture impression so what most of the people again I don't do dentures

[00:58:27] with the people I think are good at it that are that are incorporating digital into it they'll

[00:58:31] still take a traditional impression and scan it yeah and then and then it becomes a digital

[00:58:37] denture at that point yeah and then I see about digital dentures is now he got these like my son

[00:58:41] who's very digital right he would think it'd be sexy to make a digital denture and

[00:58:47] teeth around and change tea but he would not sit there and no chance he'd do the analogue yeah

[00:58:52] I get I use boxing wax yeah no it's just not gonna happen yeah yeah well he's he's lucky because

[00:58:57] you're not doing dentures to that yeah I'm with you David I don't want to take any more time

[00:59:01] I appreciate this is really fun let's do it again those were fun anytime it was a good time man anytime

[00:59:06] I'm really glad I ran into you here too because it's kind of a really nice chance to sit down

[00:59:11] face-to-face but yeah yeah and you're saving me from out there spending money I know you know

[00:59:14] I'm walking around I may go over there and say I need that maybe yeah right you laugh a little bit

[00:59:19] I'm proud of myself I have bought nothing but dinner since I've been in Chicago I'm impressed now

[00:59:24] mind you I still got today I still could go out there and do it I've got some things in my mind

[00:59:29] but if I stay in here I'll be safe yeah good I'll stay in here you see you always my pleasure safe drive home yeah