Very Dental: Intentional Dentistry and the Art of Saving Teeth with Dr. Matt Nejad

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_01] This is a production of the Very Dental Podcast Network. This is the Very Dental Podcast. Welcome to the Very Dental Podcast, where you'll find entertaining and relevant conversations with visionaries, clinicians, and your friends in the dental space. Now here's your host, Dr. Alan Mead.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_01] Very Dental people, welcome to another episode of the Very Dental Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Alan Mead. Today joining me, a new friend of mine, a guy by the name of Dr. Matt Nejad. Matt, how you doing?

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_03] Good, how are you doing? Thank you.

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_01] Good. So Matt is a dentist. He's a cosmetic and restorative dentist. I just have been looking at his Instagram. He's got an exceptional Instagram. You practice in Hollywood, Beverly Hills, that sort of area. Is that right?

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Beverly Hills or West Hollywood, it's like the same area within a few feet of each other.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. Okay. So I'm first off talking to, you know, the Beverly Hills cosmetic dentist. There's like a... For listeners that practice all over this country and maybe all over this world, there's probably a snapshot of what it's like to be the cosmetic dentist in Beverly Hills. I'm just curious. How did you become that? I'm super interested. Like where were you? Where'd you grow up? And did you know you wanted to work there all the time? What's your backstory? Give me a little of that.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_03] Backstory. I grew up nearby in Calabasas. It's maybe 30 minutes away, 20 or 30 minutes away. And I knew I wanted to stay in Southern California. I always knew I wanted to... Actually, from a young age, I knew I wanted to be in medicine either. Okay. Dentistry at first and then I considered actual like heart surgery, plastic surgery, neurosurgery. But then I came back to dentistry for a lot of reasons, including being in business for yourself.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_03] Less school, but lots of entrepreneurial freedom. And then the artistic side. My mom's an artist. She never got to be an artist professionally because her parents didn't let her. But there was a lot of resentment there. And I also thought it was a great way to combine engineering, science and art. And so I ultimately was attracted to it again. And that's kind of how I had a starting passion for cosmetic dentistry. Yeah.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Where'd you go to school?

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_03] UCLA for undergrad and then USC for dental school. Okay. So in Southern California.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_00] Okay. Okay. When'd you graduate from dental school?

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_01] 2010. 2010. Okay. So I graduated in 1997 and I would say 97... Okay. So the Hornbrook continuum was happening, right? It was like aesthetic cosmetic dentistry was like exploding right when I got out of dental school. And I mean, it was exploding in a way where there were a lot of materials that were being advertised. And I just remember like they always talked about this was the heyday of cosmetic dentistry and you got to get on board.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_01] And because 1997 is kind of like, frankly, I have a lot of old school background, like a lot of materials wise, all that stuff. And I always feel like that late 90s was sort of like a big boom for work, cosmetic dentistry. And I think a lot of us grabbed a hold of that and didn't really do the... We didn't really do the reading as much. And we just thought basically cosmetic dentistry was... You know, any composite was cosmetic dentistry or whatever.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_01] I can tell that you took it seriously from the beginning. So, okay, you graduate from USC in 2010. What was your journey from there? How did you... When you guys get a look at Matt's Instagram, you're going to realize he does a lot of aspirational dentistry. He does the kind of stuff that a lot of people wish they could do. Or when they think of cosmetic dentistry, what he's doing is it. And I mean, we can dig into a little of that. But where'd you get your training? How'd you learn to do what you do?

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_03] Thanks. Yeah. And, you know, I love hearing it because like I just do it because I love it. But I think a description I always get is it's aspirational or inspirational. And that's really where I got my start because I went into dental school thinking I could be in business for myself, making fillings and crowns. And I consider that the artistic side. But when I really found the artistic side, it was through being inspired by a mentor as well.

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_03] So when I was in dental school, the way I practice now was very much 100% inspired by my mentor, Pascal Monnier. Okay. He was a... He was doing a... Let me think about this. He did a lecture for us and then he did a selective program, which is kind of like a mini residency during your third and fourth years that you had to get into.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_00] Okay.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_03] And so it was through that, like I fought hard to get into the program, to qualify, to be selected for it and to get the best experience out of it. And it was something he described that still resonates with me today. And that's like this concept of like, who cares if you do a beautiful filling with nice anatomy and stain in the groove to make it look natural? Like who cares? And he said, well, the little me on my shoulder is who cares.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_03] When I finished the work, I like this like, you know, feeling of accomplishment and the internal feeling of like, wow, I'm really proud of this dentistry. It's not only for the patient. It's for you enjoying what you do and creating and feeling proud of the work you do. That's where I found my calling. And that's why when I graduated, I was like, I need to practice this way.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_03] I first worked inlay onlay biomimetic dentistry, which is restorative dentistry with a natural, minimally invasive, conservative and durable, long lasting type, you know, emphasis. And then I was like, but I also, he wrote a book on bonded porcelain restorations. And I thought to myself, like, you can do lots of single teeth and quadrants, but also some of the people, especially where I'm at, that need this type of dentistry the most.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_03] The ones that have teeth that are falling apart, that are ending up with implants, that are ending up losing teeth, that are ending up with veneers that don't stay all the time. It's those patients. It's the patients that are already either heavily restored and problems. So I said, I'm going to focus this energy and this education I have to apply it to them. And also the first time patients that would maybe end up somewhere getting veneers, but they end up actually like, you know, three quarter crowns, like heavily reduced teeth instead of super minimally invasive.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_03] Trying to create the education and awareness that there is an opportunity to be minimally invasive, but it wasn't common at the time. And even today, not that common. Like, even when we say minimally invasive, people are still talking about significantly more reduction than is possible.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_01] Mm-hmm. I mean, you really need to know and understand materials to understand reduction on some level. It is funny how in some cases people will talk about composite as specifically minimally invasive, but in a lot of cases, actually for composite to last, you need to reduce more than, you know, in your brain, you're like, oh yeah, I barely have to reduce. I'm like, yeah, but under-reduce a composite and see how it works out for you over the long haul. So it's like really understanding materials is a big deal on this stuff.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, obviously you're talking about Pascal. I mean, he's pretty much the guy who invented all that stuff. That's very interesting to me. So when you got out of dental school, what was, I mean, did you, you own a practice now or you're in a practice with others? Is that right?

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. So I think you're getting at like, how did I get started? Yeah.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_01] Because like, okay, the reality is a lot of people that go out of dental school and they take whatever job they can get or, you know, it's hard for them to find that. That's real because they're sort of like, they might not have the, you had a focus coming out, which is very cool to be honest. But also like, you know, so how did you, how did you get from there to here?

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. I love that you're asking that because one of the other reasons I got into dentistry was I hated being told by anybody else what I could and couldn't do. I hated the, I didn't get hired for a job at Starbucks in high school. You know what I mean? I was like, are you kidding me? Like, like it was, you know, oh, like we're looking for a certain team dynamic and everything. And it was like, I was shy. I was nervous. And I'm like, you know what? I'm going to make my own future. And so what happened is the same thing came back to me in dental school that I'm going to be in practice for myself.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_03] If I can find the right mentor, like, you know, my mentor Pascal at the time, he didn't have a practice to offer me any opportunity. I could have taught at USC, but that wasn't going to really allow me to do what I wanted. Sure. So, and I did teach there for a little bit, but basically I looked around, couldn't find anything. And I said, well, hey, you know, so far in my life when I've applied myself, I haven't failed. I got to be confident in myself. I bought a practice right out of school. I started looking six months before.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_03] I said, if I find another opportunity, I will gladly take it because mentorship is the most valuable thing in our field. And hands down, I will do two, three years, four years working for someone if I'm learning. But if not, I'm going to make my own future. And so I ended up having to buy a practice. It was $100,000. My parents helped me with it, but I did qualify for a loan. It wasn't even for that time.

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_03] It wasn't, you know, even if you adjust for inflation, I could qualify for $250,000 of loan right out of school is what they were giving me then. Yeah. My parents helped me get it, and I paid them back. And I lived at home, worked this practice for seven years, but basically, hold on a sec, 2010 to, yeah, seven years. And I did it, it was two chairs. So I treated it like dental school. I said, I'm going to be a morning patient, afternoon patient. This was my first six months. My overhead was low. And one thing, you know, you learn.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_03] I applied myself. I got faster, better, learned to run a business, and then ultimately ended up finding an even better opportunity where I am today. But, like, I consider that that was my residency period of, like, I'm going to practice this way, even if it means I'm going to make less money for a few years. Everyone's doing, what is it, GPR and A&G programs. And I'm, like, I'm just going to do my own residency where I get to practice the way I want. It's not about the money right now. And the money will come later.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_03] Like, I never focused on financial success. It was always on.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01] I got to tell you, I got to tell you, when you said the practice was $100,000, first off, I bought my, I bought a practice soon after I was out of school. I was so far over my head. I didn't know what I was doing. But I, the one brilliant thing I did was I bought a practice for $89,500. That was, I offered him $75,000. He wanted $100,000. And so we came to the middle at $89,500. And, like, it was $97,000. So the reality is the money was even easier to get at that point.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_01] And I didn't look at it as I didn't need the money. I felt like I always needed the money. But the reality is, like, you can't buy a practice for that. You can't, there's, you know, you look at an established practice and, you know, you're going to be paying out the nose for that now. And honestly, even then, for crying out loud, I just didn't, I didn't know anything. I was so glad I didn't know anything because I made a great move not realizing that it was a great move. So what kind of a practice were you able to buy for $100,000 back in 2010?

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_03] Simi Valley. Good community, blue collar, heavily insurance dominated, which is not ideal for me. But the most ideal things about it were two chairs, beautiful, like, very beautiful, like, ADEC chairs. Okay. Equipment was worth $100,000. Okay. He had bought for practice. He had built it. And then he ended up getting promoted through the military, not military, the prison system.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_01] Okay.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_03] And being, like, chief dentist and supervising. And basically he said this is a better fit for him.

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, he didn't have time for both probably, huh?

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, exactly. And so beautiful. And my rent, oh, my God. My rent was $700 a month.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_01] Mine was too. Oh, my God. That's hilarious. I've never heard anyone tell this story but me. The place was not good. It was not in a good place. But, I mean, when you're paying $700 in rent, it's almost like you're not paying rent. I mean, at that point, you're, you know, if you, that was the thing, you're like, geez, you've got your overhead covered the first day of the month. You know, it's like, it's, you know, even if you're not doing very much, it's, there's something to be said for that. So, but my guess is that he wasn't doing the kind of dentistry that you were aspiring to do in that practice.

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_03] No, and it had some business to it. It wasn't just equipment. It had about $100,000 a year in receivable or business to it, like actual revenue. But profitability was maybe $20,000, $30,000. Sure, sure. And so I took that and I started, you know, I did my own cleanings. I would talk to patients. I would educate them on the type of work I do. And I slowly started building it up. And by the time I sold it in 2017 or so.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_03] And it was just little by little, 750, 900, 1100, slowly rising and starting to get some people traveling there. You know, some people coming from, let's say, Vegas, Arizona, like some traveling starting. And meaning that like drawing from a wider area.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_01] Your reputation was starting.

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Some draw for me. Like I did have, I joined Rotary Club at the time. Okay. And slowly started, you know, word of mouth was getting around. I fixed a few problems for some people that had problems with their work kind of being sensitive and little by little kind of spread. But I ended up finding an even better fit. And it was kind of like the way I describe it. It's like going from your residency to, you know, your own full-fledged practice. Or even like we talk ball, like amateur ball to like the professional.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_03] Like I learned the fundamentals and got to do it with a set of patients that I'm not saying I did bad work. I did excellent work. But they were patient with me. They allowed me to do a three-hour filling the first day out of school. You know what I mean? Like the first month out of school, I was slow and everything. And I got to kind of get my skill set up and get everything down.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_03] And then I graduated to this place that had much more cosmetic demand, established, more restorative demand, like much more complicated cases already. And that's where I am today.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_01] Yep. Yep. And you can see on his Instagram that kind of stuff. You're obviously – I just – I want to pick your brain a little bit because it's super funny that – So you came out kind of knowing what you wanted to do. You bought a practice that wasn't necessarily doing what you – what that goal was. But that goal was always kind of there, it sounds like. Yeah. You were trying to change kind of a more standard restorative practice into a kind of practice that you'd want to do.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01] And that is – I got to tell you, that is a mindset thing because it's easy to give up when it gets hard. It's easy to say, well, you know, I can just do what everyone else is doing and make a living and it'll be fine. And I'm like – and you didn't do that. Because I can tell you didn't do that because just seeing what – and the reality is, is I think a lot of people, myself included, maybe sort of do – Like, I've had aspirations for a lot of time and I still – I've been doing this for a long time and it's still –

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_01] I kind of go back and forth between, you know, just living my life or pushing to what my aspirations are. It sounds like you really hung with that. I'm very curious about that because were there times in this first practice where you're like, this is just too much and I can just do regular dentistry? How'd you stick with it?

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_03] It wasn't the first practice that did that for me. It was the second when I was graduating to much more frequent, bigger cases, longer dates. To stick with the level of – I want to call it quality, but let's just say the way that I practice with rubber dam, very meticulous. It's like the first time you do it, you're like, I don't want to do this again. Like, I understand that it's better, but it's not – and this is what everyone tells you.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_03] Like, when I bought my first practice even, people said patients don't want you to put rubber dam on.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_01] And more than that, they say that and also, it's easy not to. Like, I know that every time I place one, particularly for restorative, you're like, why don't I do this all the time? It really does make it a lot easier. However, if you're not doing it on a regular basis, if you're not placing a rubber dam on a regular basis, you're relearning it every time. I see what you're doing, and I'm like, man, that looks really good. But you do it a lot.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_01] So it's not like you're reinventing the wheel every time you place an isolation for a big case like that. And I think that there's – I don't know. Maybe it's just me. I go – I am – I will get lazy on myself and stop even though I know it's better. And that's what's so frustrating. So how do you push through that?

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_03] Well, like – so like you said, first of all, like that first big case, I'm like, I don't want to do this. But then I thought to myself, it's like your first marathon. It's like your training. You know, you'll look back at this later. And I've had this many times in my life, whether it's like facing a fear, public speaking, opening the practice. I'm like, I'm going to look back and have no regrets. So I said, I'm just going to plow through this, and then I'll give myself like a year or two and then decide if I actually don't want to do it. And it became easier and easier.

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_03] As time goes on, it becomes – you adapt. You know, you adapt. You learn. Putting rubber dam on, for example, is the easiest thing in the world for me now. But I remember struggling with it. Any scenario you throw at me, it's easy. Deep margin, whatever. But there was a time where they all frustrated me and made me question it. But now it makes me faster and better. And so I just kind of always thought to myself that this will get easier and I'll look back at this and, you know, have the opportunity to shift.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_03] And what I've actually found is when I've tried to like, let's say, get lazy on something. Like, for example, I've done discounted work on a friend of mine. And the deal was we were going to try out some new technologies, like printed veneers, et cetera. And I said, let's try it without rubber dam. And, oh, my God, it was not my comfort zone. Like, it made me more uncomfortable. Like, I couldn't do a sloppy job. So when I was cementing them without rubber dam, I was spending more time. Way longer.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_03] And panicking when I would see moisture and blood. Like, I know that it's not good. And, you know, I just couldn't like, you know, I was like, this is not my comfort zone. It is. You reach a point. Yeah, what you do.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01] So I use a microscope for most of my dentistry. And this has been a similar kind of, I do think, too, honestly, that a microscope is a much, much better tool when you're using a rubber dam or really well-controlled isolation. It makes a big difference. But what's funny is if you're, I'll have days where, oh, I'll just break down. And, I mean, I have high-powered loops and a surgical headlamp. I'm pretty serious about the magnification aspect.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01] But I always like, I like everything better when I'm using the scope because I know that. And what's really funny is when you have a day where you've used the scope really effectively, you know, like, and then you go back to put the loops on. And you feel like, you feel like, wow, I'm not seeing everything that I know that I could be seeing or whatever. It's just very interesting that, like, you can kind of create this standard for yourself. And then when you step back, you realize that that's become the norm for you.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_03] It's really hard to go back in dentistry.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_03] And a lot of things, like, once you set, like, it's easier to never even introduce yourself to it. It is. You don't want to get there. But I've driven my whole mission when I started this was to do it to the best, to be proud of it, to be known for that, and to hopefully get rewarded for it. I don't want to be the highest paid dentist in the world, but I want to be fairly paid for the extra effort that I do. But that wasn't my intention. Like, that wasn't my driving force.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_01] You said something that I got to dig in on. Yeah. You just said extra effort. That is, that's reality. That's what it is. It is a ton more effort on your end to do it that way. And, and it's very difficult to, like, if you spend your time explaining all the extra effort to your, to your patient and all that stuff, it sort of, it sort of smells like you're sniffing your own farts a little bit, you know, like, but the reality is, it's like, like, it is extra effort. It is real.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_01] And it's not, so how do you, how do you find yourself promoting or getting that out there without coming off as like kind of a, kind of a, you know, conceited or something like that? It's a, it's like this fine line. Cause I think, I mean, there are certain patients that are like, I really appreciate that. And there are certain patients, probably anything you could say to them, they wouldn't really, they wouldn't value it.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. You know, you attract, everyone attracts a certain type of patient in the long run, like purely insurance driven or something, but even then the ones that stick around for your personality and skills, one or the other. I've been, uh, I have a certain education, I have an educational tone and I literally always educate during an appointment. And I've at some points in my career had staff tell me, oh doc, you're so good at explaining stuff, but trust me, it's too much for the patients.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Over the years it shifted. And now all they say is I love when you, like, I just kind of created my own little bubble. You know what I mean? Like I attract people that have done a little bit of research or interested in it. I can tone it down if I really don't need to, but basically by the time they're here, they are here for a reason that they know I offer. It's very rare that they just, you know, stumbled in it's frustration with something heavy recommendations and referrals or

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_03] self, uh, research online and stuff like that. Only time I really had to explain what I do and try to create my own little future, I guess, would be in the early days, you know, when like I had practice. Yeah. Oh, and, and maybe the first five years of being in this practice, because Dr. Helm, the original dentist, he's my partner. He practiced one way, but he actually transitioned to practice the same way. He does a rubber dam. He practices biomedic dentistry.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_03] But basically I had to slowly transition people to, I'm going to use a rubber. I didn't want to scare them. I'm going to use a rubber dam.

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[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_03] This is why and stuff like that. But basically I just, I explain it. I try not to think too much about it, but I do try to like read the patient. If they truly don't care, I'll just back off, but I'm trying to let them know that I'm spending more time to make it better. Not even to sell it. I just want them expectations. I think it's all about expectation of like, for example, if you're doing something and the bonding is going to look dehydrated and not match. If you tell them at the end, you're covering your ass.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_03] But if you tell them at the beginning, keep in mind, it's not going to match at the end. You're like forecasting. And so I try to be very good at telling them things like the appointment is going to be longer than a filling you've had in the past because of ABC. It's not to sell. It's so they're not like, what the hell did I walk into? If they don't want to do it, I don't want, I don't, you know, I have no problem with it. I just want them to know I'm going to spend more time to make this the best they can.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_01] That's really cool. What kind of external marketing do you do? Are you heavy on a website? Do you use, I mean, or is it mostly word of mouth? I'm literally curious because I feel like I don't feel, I don't know what kind of marketing could be super effective on that outside of, you know, like.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_03] No paid marketing.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. That's what I thought. That's what I was going to guess.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. I tried even back in the beginning. I just never could make it work. I do have a website and some degree of SEO, but think of it more like I have a company that just manages my few different websites. And they're not doing any crazy SEO, but I put out some blog articles, some videos, you know, I've had pushes throughout my career where I try to.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I know. I get it. Yep.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_03] That basically then Instagram and word of mouth, you know what I mean? Yeah. Website still has an impact and Yelp and all that stuff. But I write this minute. I'm not focused on any one of those. I'm actually very comfortable place where I just focus on the dentistry. Yeah. Document cases. Yes. Yes. Yes. You know, because I'm like, you know, just like I can save 20. I'm not not documenting that, but I've scaled back. Like I have. Oh, interesting. Afters, but I don't have to ask you about that.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_03] Every single step of every single case, just because I'm busy enough now that I like it. If I document so much, I might not be able to see one or two more patients that week. So I'm like, okay, I'll take the before. I'll take the after. I'm not taking every step of every procedure just to save time.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01] Which is, that's another thing. There's a commitment to documentation that you have to do when you're doing what you're doing. Because first off, it's great because you can show people what you're doing. It's also documentation. When you go back and look at the photos, it's brutal. It's easy to be brutal on yourself. And probably it's a really good way to learn. Because even when you think it's going great in real life, you can look at those photos and go, oh my God. And I'm terrible about it.

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_01] Because the other thing is taking DSLR photos throughout the procedure is a long process. You have to have a team that's really committed to it and all that stuff. I will say having a scope with a good camera on it has been helpful. It's not the same as a DSLR. It really isn't. I don't think that. I know some people that have set up ring flashes and stuff on their scope. I'm not there. But I would argue that I've got a pretty decent setup if I wanted to do that.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_01] And that's what I – I was going to guess that because I'm like, you know, it's like heavy marketing is awesome. And some people might figure it out. But it doesn't fit my personality super well. And I'm guessing it doesn't fit your personality super well either. But somehow you're getting referrals and you're getting – do you feel like Instagram has been – okay, so you can either have an Instagram that other dentists look at. And they do. I promise you because I do.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01] But do you feel like patients are also interested in your Instagram stuff as well?

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, for sure. It took – it's the type of thing where if you're thinking you get like 10 patients a month because of it, no. But when you do more expensive, larger cases, it only takes a year to justify the effort. And I routinely see people that say they've been following me or I'm going to come to you. I even have patients that message me. Like they're about to start their treatment. Like, oh, I love this case. Do mine like this. I'm like, oh, my God. You're following.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_03] I didn't even realize you're following me.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_03] You know, you see it. But it was not year one, not year two. Right around now is when – you know what I mean? Like it's like I've had some people that said they've been following you for five years. Like, oh, my God. Like it's like it's a long-term thing, you know? Someone wants to do the veneers. I've even had patients do a consult with me through Instagram, not do treatment. Go somewhere else. Come back three years later and say, I regret not having done it with you. Now I want to redo it. You know, like it's just long-term. You know, just really, really long-term.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_01] So, okay. Let's say someone's new. Someone has learned some of the techniques that you're talking about that you've learned. And they want to effectively get the word out that they're doing this kind of thing. Where should they spend their time? What's the best way for someone to become, you know, if you're actually doing some cases and you can document them, what's the best way? Is Instagram the place? Is Facebook? I mean, I'm not even sure. I'm curious.

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_01] If someone was going to say, okay, I'm going to get real serious about my documentation so I can show people what I'm doing, where's the best place to put that out?

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_03] Good question. I mean, it kind of conflicts with something I want to talk about. But basically, like, I did not do. Okay. So, I did blog articles and website originally. I actually resisted. I did too. People would say, oh, you should start an Instagram. I don't know what that is. I'm not going to do that. So, I got on it later. Yeah. I regret not having got on it sooner. But I also hate the mentality of fake it till you make it. Yes. Present yourself as an expert when you're not.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_03] I firmly believe in 10,000 hours of, you know, practice before you market yourself as such. So, I feel like I would be posting to, if I was posting, I'd be posting to kind of just share my work, get comfortable, like, you know, putting it out there. Not trying to present myself as an expert. But at the same time with my patients, really, I think the real thing I would try to do is develop a passion that comes off with people around you that explains what you do.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_03] Doesn't present yourself as I'm the best in the world at this because I wasn't the best in the world at that time. And I still don't think I'm the best in the world at anything. I just try to be the best that I can, I guess, you know? Yeah. And just getting that mentality across. And then it's year 10. The thing is, people don't like this, but it's year 10 that you start seeing. Like, I really started seeing the rewards of what I do. Year 7 through, I'm in year 16 right now. I graduated through that 10, right? So, or 15 and a half years in.

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_03] So, it was like years, the last seven years were exponentially every year a little bit more. Like, now I didn't get referrals from specialists much in the first few years. There was a couple in Simi Valley where I worked that were like kind of caught on in the first four or five years. But it became more and more and more, especially where I'm at now. It was the past three years. You know, even ones I've been working with for five years, they started being like, man, your work is the best. Like, I tell everyone to go, oh, wow.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_03] You know, like it's just really just trying to do the best I can. So, I think my advice is really that put the energy on your own work and improving. People will notice that. You know what I mean? And there's a saying that I love, which is the harder you work, the luckier you get. Because I was lucky on these things. But I realized I worked hard for these things. You know, like things do present themselves and opportunities. But they come to you because you put yourself in the right position for them.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I completely agree with that. That's interesting. The one thing that it sounds like through your story, there's a lot of intentionality. You've been intentional about trying to do this stuff and make sure that it's hard to be intentional. Because life, you know, sometimes doesn't let you be intentional. Sometimes life comes up, you know. So, keeping that intention is very impressive. I'm curious. Does that ring true with you when I say that, the intentionality of it?

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And it's very true. And with sacrifice, too. Because, like, I was, I'm so goal-oriented and success, but not financial success. Like, when I say success-oriented, I mean, like, feeling that feeling of, like, accomplishment, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, I specifically didn't want to have kids or get married too soon.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_03] You know, I've always felt that I didn't want things competing with me achieving what I wanted. And I don't think that's something you, I would advocate for. I'm just answering the question that, like, yeah, like, to the point that I was, like, I was scared. Nothing makes me more frustrated than compromising on my, giving up on my goals. Like, literally being like, oh, like, yeah, but then I couldn't because of A, B, and C. Yeah.

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_03] And, like, I made some sacrifices, and I don't regret them, but, like, they helped me, you know, get here. Yeah. And, um, actually, as I look at it, like, I'm where I want to be right now, and I still have time for whatever I want to do. But, um, I did have to very intentionally decide that. Like, I was scared of those. And I came from a divorced family, so, of course, like, I'm scared of those things anyways.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_02] Sure, sure.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_03] But it was very intentional that I'm, like, if I do this and my, if I shift to, if I can't spend my energy doing what I wanted to, then I may end up regretting it. But I've heard the opposite side. I've heard people say, no, the biggest thing, you know, everyone has their own goals. Like, you know, you can't tell me that my way is wrong, but I can't tell you that this is what you should do. It just depends on what a person wants to do.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. No, that's right. I mean, I, um, time management is really difficult for me because I have two kids and I have their high school and they don't take as much time as I used to. But the reality is I don't do as much CE as I used to because I just, I don't do the traveling because I have family, that sort of thing. And this is, like you said, everyone kind of makes their choices. And you don't feel bad about making the choices. I just, it's kind of cool to see your story because the thing that jumps out at me is you've been very intentional about it. And I, and I like that.

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_01] And, and honestly, you guys need to check out. I know, I don't, I don't want to claim that Instagram is where you're, you're doing your best stuff necessarily, but it's very easy to find you. And, and I, I really enjoy, I really enjoy looking at your stuff. And, uh, now you, you do a fair amount of teaching too. Tell me about that.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. I started, so because my mentor introduced me to all this, he gave me some opportunities as well to do like, um, my first lecture, first year out of school. And I started to realize from a lot of people that very few people practice this way at that time, you know, like right now, everyone, see everyone saying this thing like, oh, biomedic dentistry is just a term and whatever. I mean, everything's just a term, but you can call it whatever you want.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_03] You could, you could, you could say it's just adhesive dentistry, for example, but it's no adhesive dentistry. It has more purpose and intention.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_01] And it's all about the intention, Matt. It's all about the intention. The bottom line is that I think probably amongst biomimetic dentists, there's, there may be some argumentation about what's the right way to do it. But the one thing you'll always see is incredibly well isolated cases, incredibly clean cases, incredibly well documented cases. So yeah, there's, there's a whole, there's a whole, a whole basket of stuff that goes along with that. I think that's very important to note.

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_03] Yep. Of course. And so like, I forgot the question. Yeah.

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_01] I just interrupted you because it was, but it meant a lot to me. The intentionality is, is a big deal. I love, I love that. I love that. And I guess one thing that's really funny, we've been talking for a while and, and we were originally supposed to talk about some instruments that, and I think we still can. And the reality is, is like, okay, so you look at Matt's Instagram. It's beautiful. His documentation's fantastic. He has that light blue, the classic biomimetic light blue. I'm guessing it's a Nicktone rubber dam.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_01] There's several, now there's several of them that are branded that, that are light blue, but it's like, you know that the guy is take, takes the stuff seriously when they're using this stuff. And so these instruments are these, okay, so they're, Garrison is the distributor in the United States. Now, how, how early were you using LM instruments?

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_03] Maybe two years now.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. Really interesting. So I got to tell you my, my LM story. So I was, you know, on early in dental Facebook culture, which I'm not proud of, but having podcasted for as long as I have, I've sort of been in all kinds of different groups. And these, you'd see these style Italiano guys and you're like, whoa, look at the stuff they're doing. And then, and then they came out with a line of instruments. I'm like, well, clearly if they're using these instruments, I got to get these instruments. And so, and no one in the United States would, was distributing them. Like it was a very European thing.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_01] And so at one point Patterson had, I, I, I could get a few of them from Patterson. So I would get these instruments and they're really, they're really nice instruments. However, they didn't have the, the dark diamond. They were just straight up instruments. One of the things I remember is there's a scaler. It's not really a scaler. It's called the excesso. And it's, it's the, it's that thing. You have to be very careful because you can cut yourself on it. It is the sharpest thing I think I've ever used in dentistry my entire life.

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_01] And it's meant for, it's meant for trimming back composite to be perfectly honest. It's in lieu of a curved blade, I think probably scalpel. Essentially, this thing is really amazing. So these instruments have always been nuts, but they, for the longest time you had to kind of look for them because they didn't, in the United States, you had to find a distributor. Well, then Garrison, a few years back decided they're going to do this. And, and honestly, these LM instruments, I really like them. They're very good. I've, I've used them in hygiene. I've used the, I've used the restorative ones for years. And then they came out with this dark stuff.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_01] So tell, tell me what you know about the dark diamond and what you're using.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_03] Well, for one, just the instruments in general, like I'm always been a big fan that even the previous instruments I had were color coded. And that's how I came with my assistant. I don't say. That's a good point. I say blue. Yeah. You know, we talk about the color of the instrument.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_03] And then I love the shapes of the instruments. And then you throw on top of that. I have both dark diamond and regular. And I always find myself going back to the dark diamond. Yeah. It's where you are used to thinking nonstick has really no benefit or application. But you're like, whatever. They all miss it or something. But it is much better. It is much better. It stayed. Even my first set, which is my first black dark diamond set, is probably over a year and a half old now.

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_03] And it still has not lost its coding. And it hasn't scratched up like crazy. So I love it. But I notice the difference. Things do stick less. And when you combine that with the fact that you also have these awesome shapes, it's a no-brainer. And I think it's just a little bit more than the other. It's not like a crazy premium versus standard. So it's, you know, the only.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_01] It's a little bit like what we were talking about, where once you start using a certain thing, and if you go back, you're like, oh, my God. Yeah. Okay. So the other thing I'm going to throw out there is the color. Yeah. So isolation with a rubber dam is fantastic. But like I was teasing you about that light blue, the reality is that the background that you're working against really is great on an eye strain. Right?

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_01] Like so the story is you don't have a bunch of different colors and pink and red. You've got blue and then you've got teeth. Well, then now these instruments are black. And it's even there's no, you know, if you're using a bright, like a surgical headlamp or a microscope, there's no reflection whatsoever. It's wild. Like you'll use it and you're like, I never realized this was even a thing. I didn't realize that the reflection was something that kind of bugged me. And it really does. It's very noticeable.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01] So now that I've started using them, I don't want to use any, well, hand me a reflective instrument and I'm super annoyed right off the bat. That's reality. That's reality.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_03] And that we, you know, I originally got like maybe two sets of them. And then, um, cause I, in my restorative cassettes, I have this like very simple concept of like one universal burr block and one universal restorative. If you can do it, man, it's the best. It's absolutely the best. Yeah. So this became my exception because I don't want to put these instruments in the cassette because they will bang against others and get up. So now this is the only thing that I do keep separate.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_00] Okay.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_03] Okay. So I have a set of composite instruments in the cassette. Yeah. It never gets used. I got to get around to either taking them out.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_00] Okay.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_03] Or they are the backups if something were to happen. Yeah. Yeah. Backups now, but I have a whole set and they're also color coded, but I always use this. And now I have like six or seven sets of it because I really don't want to practice without it. So, you know, that's when you know something's good. You get one or two to experiment and you're like, I need the whole, the whole, you know, my whole armamentarium needs to be able to allow for this.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_01] There's a bunch of shapes that honestly, it's, if it were me, I'd probably get, if you're not sure what you like, I'd get, I'd get the full set and then, and then play around with them. Cause there's some shapes you might not use. There's, there's a few that I use less than others, but I will say, what do you, go ahead. I'm sorry.

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_03] I use the five that in the, uh, the standard, the green instrument, which is the best little fine needle tip to like interproporably remove excess by drops of flow. If you need to stuff like it's got a, it's got the, uh, it's got a little cone on the other end, but the cone.

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. The cone doesn't, the cone doesn't get the, the use that the teeny, teeny tiny. And I'm going to tell you what, if you, if you like to, even if you're not doing super high end, if you're, if you want to get flowable to adapt to the, the gingival seat of a, of a class two, there's no instrument better for it than this. It's the tiniest little thing. And it's in, yeah, that is the green. And like you said, because they're color coded, you can tell the, you can tell your assistant what the heck you're looking for by color rather than trying to describe the instrument.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_01] Cause it's hard to describe, to be honest. No, that's exactly right. I, that's, so these are, I'll put all the links to this stuff in the show notes. Cause these, I mean, they're, they're pretty highfalutin instruments. I love them. I think everyone should try them because once they do though, but, but I also think everyone should try a lot of what you were talking about. I mean, it's, it's easy. It's hard because it, you do have to be intentional about it. You have to decide not only do I want to do this, but I will push through the discomfort of getting to that point before it becomes automatic.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_01] You know, that's, and I'm still stuck in some, some places that way, but I, I can tell, but I mean, I, I've talked to lots of people that, that are in similar ways that you can just tell the way that they document their cases, the way that they talk. You know, everything's pretty intentional and they've, they've pushed through that discomfort. I love that about you. I think that's fantastic. I feel like, I feel like we could talk for hours, honestly, about this stuff.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_01] One, I guess one last thing, this is something I, I, is it a biomimetic, biomimetic concept to, okay. I feel like dentistry in general is moving away from saving teeth. Like, I feel like, I feel like I'm the only guy in the world that thinks it's worth hanging on to a tooth that might not, that might not, you know, be perfect. It drives me kind of bananas how quickly people are going to implants.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_01] And part of me wonders if it's that, uh, people aren't the comfort level with the skillset that it takes to save a tooth that's pretty beat up versus also, you know, implants are, are a high, you know, a high profit, you know, and, and you go train yourself. And this is that, how do you feel about that? Do you feel like dentistry is moving away from saving teeth in a, in a bad way? Or what do you think about that?

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe it's getting like a second wind of trying to save them now. Like, it seems like there's like a greater push. It seems like there's a much greater push for recent graduates to want to practice more this way.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_03] There was when I was grad, when I was graduating, everyone wanted to like, you know, go somewhere where like either Texas or something where they can do high volume, make a lot of money, own a lot of practices. And now I'm seeing more desire in doing this, but basically, yeah, more people like the second you lose a wall or you have a deep margin or something, they're really quick to jump to implant extraction. And if the amount that's falling apart, kind of going towards, you know, all on four, all on X, that type of stuff.

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_03] And I do think it's tragic and I do think that it's not the right answer, but I also know that to do it the way that gives a second chance is also not attainable for some patients. So there is a kind of like gray area where even though it's theoretically possible, it's more expensive than that. But I do think for sure it's cheaper in the long run, even in those.

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_03] I think if you really look at a 30 something year old losing their teeth and getting all on X, I think they would, you know, because I had I had that exact scenario where the patient was. And it's like it was hard to save them. They're all falling, falling apart crown areas, everything. It was possible and it was, in my opinion, worth it. And these are the cases that I think have a huge impact on the patient's rest of their life. I keep their teeth now. I think that patient will keep most of their teeth for their whole life.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, that's huge, too. I just feel like literally, you know, I've seen people, speakers that are now their primary gig in dentistry is rescuing all on four cases that were not well, well executed. The first thing you just feel like, oh, my God, that's not that's not good for anyone. It's not good for anyone. And I mean, I'm not I'm not a guy who does that. I don't love the surgical stuff. I'm not, you know, but I I feel like dentistry needs to kind of figure out. I don't know.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_01] There's a lot that dentistry needs to figure out.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_03] But but I can I just say it's like it's it's on topic, but it's a little off topic. So on that note, like same thing with root canals, like what a tooth, like all the research out there. And this is relevant to my day today. All the research out there shows that the tooth test vital, even if the caries is deep, that root canal is not the it's not indicated. You know, it's either no root canal or vital pulp therapy, not full root canal.

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And yet people still routinely when carries gets deep goes there. And then the one time I post this, I posted a nice reel that went more or less viral. And it was all I said was her last dentist said she needs a root canal and crown. Yeah. I guess they don't practice biomimetic dentistry. Yeah. And I just did this whole video. And it was like, oh, it does need a root canal. Oh, I'll see that in two months.

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_03] Well, it's been three years. I know her. She's coming back to do the tooth behind it that her local that she lives far away, her local that again. And it's like, you know, it's didn't need a root canal. It was fine. They're like, oh, you shouldn't bad mouth other dentists. Like, why is that even bad mouth? No, no, it's not bad mouth thing. I'm trying to educate that there's differences, you know, and they're like, oh, like people like, yeah, in two months it'll need. I'm like, I cannot wait. We're going to make a new video today with her saying I did this three years ago. I'm going to cold test it, everything.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_03] And, you know, but point is like people get so they're so set on like going. Remember that root canal don't always succeed.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_01] No, no, no. And the more you I just saw a patient yesterday who had had. She's just young. She's in her 30s. It was just it was an upper first molar. And I hadn't seen the PA of this tooth. And I looked at him like I without knowing. I'm like, OK, this has had multiple retro fills. This has been retreated multiple times. You know, like, you know, every time, you know, it's the more endodontic treatment a tooth has. It doesn't mean it's going to be good.

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_01] You know, in fact, it's almost statistically speaking, if it needs retreatment, it's in much worse shape than it was in the beginning. So, yeah. And I know that endodont is hated when I say this. But like, look, if, you know, vital pulp therapy or, you know, as, you know, modified hall technique by depending on who you're talking to, that sort of thing. Selective caries removal. You've always got a chance to do the root canal again later if it if the tooth goes non vital or whatever.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_01] And they're like, yeah, but the best time to do it now is when it's vital. I'm like, yeah, but that's also not, you know, your prognosis might be better doing it on a vital tooth. But it's also like, yeah, it just killed it. You killed the tooth.

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_03] The literature reports me like the plain and simple fact is the Academy of Endodontics and numerous other publications, systematic reviews, et cetera. All say maintain, you know, selective caries removal is what's indicated and not treat a tooth that tests as vital. Sorry, if a tooth test is vital, maintaining vitality is what's indicated. There's no gray. There's no gray line here. There's, you know, it's just like people choose to be more aggressive.

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_03] Then anything is actually supported.

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_01] I think in a lot of cases it's a convenience thing. It's also they were trained in the 90s like I was where you if you, you know, if you don't remove all the decay, whatever that means, whatever that means. I, you know, these are people that trained me before I started using a microscope. I'm like, oh, okay, you tell me what if I have I removed all the decay here? Let me show you under, under, you know, 18 times. The reality is, is that, yeah, I mean, selective caries removal is, is the standard.

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_01] And if you're just, if you're just going until everything's hard as a rock, well, you don't know what you're talking about on some level in that in, in that's frustrating to me. There's less of that now. But there's plenty of dentists trained who are in that I was that just, that's what we were trained in. That's just what we do. It's very interesting.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_02] Yep.

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_01] Matt, we should wrap up. We've been going for a while. This was, I really appreciated this. This was great. I never even got to ask you about your dog. That was, that was going to be my icebreaker. Tell me, before we go, because on Instagram, on your stories, you have this adorable puppy that seems to be in your office. Tell me about the dog before we go.

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_03] She's a mini golden doodle. She's six months, five and a half months right now.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_01] Okay.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_03] She's being trained as a service dog. I want to like when I get, so I had a cat for 18 years, passed away in January, devastated. Like I realized that went through dental school and my whole career with me. Like, Oh wow. First moment. I never had a day of dentistry outside of school without her, you know, and him, sorry. And basically I took a few months and I decided, let me try a dog this time. I want to get out, get out more, go for walks, more physical stuff.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_03] I got a dog and I said, but I don't, I hated leaving and traveling without my cat. Sure. Like I hate eating them. I felt like always bad about it. So I'm like, I'm going to make sure I make this dog into a service dog so we can go everywhere. I want to bring her on vacations with me. So I'm like, this is like, she's hypoallergenic. She's a mini golden doodle. She's been trained as a service dog for deep pressure therapy, which means, you know, relaxing patients, being able to sit on them.

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_03] But it starts basic training and we're in that stage where she's learning extended stays, but she's adorable. Patients love her and she has sat on patients for like maybe 20, 30 minutes at a time, but she's still a puppy.

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. That's awesome. Well, yeah, I was going to say the puppy aspect is obvious in the stories. And if you get a chance to see her, she's, she's fantastic. But I also, that's an interesting trend because I've seen some pretty well-trained dogs in dental offices that that that's, you're going to attract patients for that specifically at some point. Cause that's a big deal, Matt, this was a blast. I really appreciate you coming on and let's do it again sometime soon. And I'll make sure I got all of Matt's links in the show notes and we'll, we'll do it again. Thank you very much. Thanks a lot.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_03] You have a great rest of your day. Thanks.