Very Dental: Inviting Your Demons in for Tea with Dr. Dawn Grimes

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[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_01] This is a production of the Very Dental Podcast Network. This is the Very Dental Podcast.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_02] Welcome to the Very Dental Podcast, where you'll find entertaining and relevant conversations with visionaries, clinicians, and your friends in the dental space. Now, here's your host, Dr. Alan Mead. Very Dental people, welcome to another episode of the Very Dental Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Alan Mead. Joining me, she's been on countless times. Shoot, we did an entire podcast series together. Hi, friend Dawn Grimes. Dawn, how are you doing?

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_00] I'm good.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_02] So, Dawn is recording. We determined this is the first time that we've recorded in her new house. So, does it feel like a recording studio now to you?

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_00] No.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_02] No.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_00] Not yet. No.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_02] She's like moving into a new house or moving out of an old house. I have another friend that has been doing the moving thing for the last couple of weeks and I'm like, man, I don't miss that. I don't. When I have to, I hope that when we move out of this house, I'm dead. I hear you. Or it's because a horrible fire happened and we can't save anything.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_00] You're kidding. So, I have this thing about stuff. And so, my last move was actually pretty smooth.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_03] Okay.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_00] Because I have a limited amount of stuff.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_00] I have two main possessions and that is clothing.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_00] And shoes falls under that category, right? Yeah. And books.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_00] So, I bought a house that's big enough that I turned an entire bedroom into a closet.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_03] Yep.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_00] And then I turned another bedroom into a library. Nice. So, I was able to on day one put my clothes away.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_04] Yep.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_00] And put my books away. And then that was it. Yeah. So, it's been nice. It's been really nice actually.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_02] I literally own a farm with, I don't even know how many outbuildings in there. They're not all full of stuff.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_00] No, but there's stuff in them. There's stuff.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, there's stuff. We've got multiple buildings kind of full of stuff. And we, you know, what's funny with a farm, you need farm stuff to be able to take care of animals and all this stuff. So, you sort of, the accumulation is sort of crazy. And you'd think, hey, it's cool. You have a lot of stuff.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_00] Eh, not really. No, and I'm determined to not have any more stuff. Like, people keep asking, oh, like, I have no lawn equipment.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_02] That's what I was going to ask you. Okay. So, the question is, because, you know, as soon as you have a house. I don't even have a shovel. Start your start. Okay. Well, you'll probably need something. But do you have someone else to just do your lawn?

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I just have people. Yeah.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_02] That's fantastic. So, you don't even have to have the mower. Oh, that's so cute. No.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_00] And I don't, like, I don't do anything outside.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_00] So, like, my boyfriend bought me flowers.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_00] That live outside. Yeah. And so, I put water in those.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. That's the big responsibility.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_00] That's it.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_02] I get it. I get it.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_00] But I don't want any of that stuff. So, someone asked me, are you going to get a shed? I'm like, no, because I have no intention of ever owning a single thing that needs to go in a shed.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_02] The shed. The shed. There's an insinuation that the shed means there's stuff that needs to go in the shed. And you're like, eh, why not?

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_00] No, it's a reason to not get stuff. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't have a shovel.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_00] So, I have nothing. I had to buy hoses to water the lawn because I had to put a lawn in. Yeah.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_02] You do live in Michigan, so I have to tell you, I don't mean to break this. There will likely be snow. You might need a shovel or you're going to need someone to come take care of that.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_00] The same person who does my lawn will come with his truck. Good. And he will shovel. And he actually, when I lived, the last place I lived, he would actually clean off my car because I didn't have a garage there. And so, he would clean off my car and shovel around it.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_02] This is great.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_02] This is the way to live, man.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_00] I don't want anything to do with any of that crap. But yes, when the dead bunny was in the yard, I maybe could have used a shovel.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_00] But I'm thinking that's not going to happen every day.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_02] The dead bunny in the yard, it's funny because we have two cats. And I had a cat present me with a snake last week.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, fun. Yeah. My Doberman got a snake in the yard.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Years ago. I didn't. I was, he was, I think he was disappointed that I wasn't that interested in it. But like, I, we've had barn cats over the years and literally, we are, we finally had to put Gracie down earlier this year. And so now we just, the only real like snuggly fuzzy animals we have are the two barn cats. They are awesome. They're awesome. They are. I will say this. I, I have been recording podcasts out on the front porch with my laptop a bunch because the weather's been good. I almost did that today.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_02] But I, I, and what's really funny is I have to multiple times I had to have Jacob come in the middle of them and take the cats down. They're like, they're like, why aren't you paying attention to me? Oh, they want to be on me. Like literally I had one of them turn the recording off accidentally. Not again. I didn't realize it's just like, yeah. So it's been, I, I love, I love having the cats. There's kind of nothing better than barn cats are, are a special, but first off they're brothers from the same litter. We got them when they were teeny tiny.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_02] They've never known anything but each other. And so that's kind of cool. I have to say, I would recommend, I think probably any pet situation buying from a litter. Maybe that's not a good thing with dogs, but boy, oh boy, with these cats, it's been near perfect.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_00] I've been eyeing, there's a rescue by me and I've been eyeing because they have a pair of Dobermans that they're trying to adopt together. And I do have a weakness for the Doberman, but it's a mother and a daughter.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. They, that would probably work out pretty well. I think.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00] I think they probably get along fine, but I hate that I'm still in this mental frame of mind because I'm so scarred from losing two dogs in a year.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_00] That, um, that I'm like, well, the mom's going to go. You know what I mean? Like mom will probably go first. Yeah. I say that hopefully, you know, my last dog that died was only four, but, um, and then I got to deal with the sadness of the daughter. I don't know. I don't know.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_02] I'm, I'm honestly, no, my, my cats are, they're four. So I've got, well, but except they're barn cats. So barn cats don't live, barn cats on average probably have a shorter lifespan than house cats because I mean, we have coyotes. Yeah. I was just going to say they're out. Yeah. I will say our guys are pretty, are pretty savvy. I think they're probably as savvy as cats as we've had. I think they, I, I'm not saying they could take a coyote, but I know. No, but they might notice. They know how to get, they know how to get out of the way. Yeah.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_02] I think I say that, but yeah, barn cats don't have as long a lifespans as regular cats. That said, these guys seem to be doing pretty well. Uh, I'm going to be wrecked when these guys go more so than more so than maybe than any other animal I've ever had. I really, I'm turning into a cat guy. What even happened? I've never really, I'm allergic to cats. I'm, but I, I, I literally, I literally have like been desensitizing myself to the cats because I, I like them so much in there.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_02] So because they can't, I think if they lived in our house, they would not like us as, because they're like, they have to kind of compete for our attention. They're not, they're not, they're not, they don't have access to us all the time. A lot of people say, oh, my cat won't pay any attention to me, but these guys have limited amount of time with us. So they're very, very affectionate. They're great. So I'm, I'm loving that. We also got a new goat. We got a baby goat at fair. So that's, we've got, we are clearly not.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02] We're not downsizing as much as we, or we have, we talk a good game. We are not downsizing. It is no easier to go for a weekend trip at the Mead's house as it has been. We have animals to take care of. They're different animals than they maybe were last year, but so yeah, we still have that, that issue. So that's, that's sort of a coming up thing. So anyhow, I don't even know where, how I started on that, but here we are.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_03] I don't either.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_02] So literally last year at this time was when the last time you and I recorded. I remember because I was listening to our podcast when I was mountain biking for the, there's a, the Vetter Society meeting happens in the fall every year. And, and so, uh, I was listening to our episode when I was mountain biking up at the Vetter Society. And so I just remember, holy cow, this was like last year at this time. And, and, uh, just so happened. I, I, okay. So I, I have a weakness for Instagram.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_02] I'm, I'm getting better, but I've talked about it a lot at Instagram of all the things that are a time suck. Instagram seems to own me that way. And it may be just because it's so visual and it's so easy to just doom scroll on Instagram. And I know you and I've talked about how you, how you can make your feed, you know. Yes.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_00] I only have like puppies.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_02] Exactly. Exactly. You need to, I have, I have less things that enrage me now than I ever used to. I really do. I'm better than I have, but, but, uh, I might be you that was following her. Sharon Salzberg has, uh, Sharon Salzberg, who is, who is a meditation teacher. I started following her probably, probably a month ago. And, and, and I'm fine. I found that like, she'll put a post of, I don't know if she does it or if she has people that do it.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02] I suspect that she has people that do it, but they'll put a Sharon Salzberg post. Typically it's a quote from her or, or some kind of, and I like, it'll just scroll across my doom scrolling and it's very, very affecting in a good way. So I guess what I'm saying, listeners, uh, go check out Sharon Salzberg's Instagram page. I'll put a link in the show notes, but, but I found it to be, honestly, it's, it's a bright spot in, in my social spot. It was social media kind of consumption.

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_02] And, and I'm thinking to myself, okay. And we've talked about this. You really have to curate what you're seeing. And I, I'm better at it than I used to be, but I'm not perfect because I still think, what is it about me or human beings that we kind of like to see things that enrage us? We kind of like, I don't, I don't have that disease. I, but I, I, I, but I think that, I think that a lot of us do like, in other words, I don't, I don't remember feeling that way when I was younger, but I just feel like sometimes,

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_02] sometimes it's like, we kind of like the things that, that, uh, that stir us up a little bit. And maybe that's, that's new to so many things now I think are new because social media exists.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, that's very real. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_02] Like, like, and, and I mean, so what I'm saying is you can, if you, and you and I have actually talked about, if you are better at, at making sure you're, you have a little control over what you're seeing, your life can be a lot better. So I guess I wanted to ask you what, tell me your, your relationship too, and, and how you first heard about Sharon Salzberg. And, and I mean, you are a meditation teacher and so is she. So clearly you've got some background, but I just, I have to say, I found it's, it's kind

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_02] of a bright spot in, in, you know, my day-to-day thing. And frankly, these days I need some bright spots in there. So I'm just curious what your, what your background is there.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_00] Well, can I, can I just say something else real quick first about Instagram? So I'm not super intimate with Instagram. Like I go on there a couple of times a week. Um, and it's still kind of new to me, so I don't fully understand how it works. But, um, my boyfriend is a therapist and he told me that one of the strategies that one of the other therapists in his practice uses is he makes, she makes the new patient pull up this page.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. The for you. Yeah.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. Yeah. And, and then they talk about like, why is it showing you this? You know what I mean? So I thought that was such a, and now I'm obsessed with it. Cause I'm like, oh no, did I look at too much bad stuff?

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_02] No. Well, I will say the, the, the, and the other, I have the Dalai Lama.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_00] I have the, I'm not showing you mine.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_02] I'm not showing you mine. I don't know what'll be there. It depends on the day. I think, I think heterosexual males are going to, you're going to find more stuff that's, that's, uh, I think.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00] Well, I, so I get a lot of that stuff too.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_02] More Maxim magazine.

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_00] So I get a lot of stuff that's very much aimed at single women of a certain age. Yes. Divorced women.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_00] Uh, because I'm, I just recently turned 50. Um, the internet thinks I'm in menopause. So I get a lot of that. So I think that's real, but I do think, you know, you get to control somewhat what it shows you. You know what I mean?

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_02] Like, okay. Okay. I just pulled mine up. I only see one thing that's particularly, I can, I can do this. I, I'm, I'm, I feel better that there's, you can see some cats, a border collie. Yeah. A lot of, a lot of comedy. No naked ladies. I'm proud of you, Alan. There's no naked ladies. Nothing, nothing. I'm seeing, I'm seeing a large preponderance of cats. I'm proud of myself. That's good. Yeah, exactly. So that's good.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_02] What you've been, what you've been seeing lately. For sure. Yeah, for sure. That's funny.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00] So Sharon Salzberg is one of my favorite teachers and she has been since I started, since I went down this road. Um, because honestly, she's one of the most famous Buddhist teachers. Um, she, I believe we had to read her book, Real Happiness.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_03] Okay.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_00] Um, when I did teacher training and then I have taken several courses with Sharon. Um, and I have to say that she's one, she's an outlier because she's a woman.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_00] And what you'll find if you go into the spiritual realm is that most of the teachers are men and most of the students are women. And you can imagine what happens in that situation. Yeah, that's right.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_00] But Sharon, you know, is kind of an outlier in that way, but she's from the same school of people that like Ram Dass, Krishna Dass, um, Raghu Marcus, Rameshwar Dass. Um, but she kind of went, those people kind of leaned more towards like the Hindu stuff.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_03] Yep.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_00] And Sharon went to, did the like Buddhism thing. So she kind of branched off from them and did Buddhism, but they teach together quite frequently. So one of the times I saw Sharon, she was with Krishna Dass and, and they have, um, well, I should, I've seen them together twice and they have a beautiful relationship because they've known each other since they were teenagers.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_02] Yep. Yep. Um, but her, her Instagram page has tons of pictures of her from the seventies when she was just kind of getting started. It's hilarious. Yeah. And I mean, it's, it's, so she's clearly, she's got, she's got a long history doing this.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. And I would say like Bob Thurman was probably the most renowned Buddhist teacher in the States.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_02] Okay.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_00] Um, he passed away this year. He's also Uma Thurman's father, but, um, okay, sure. Yeah. And she's very gentle. So the human comes through with like some honesty. Um, she's not afraid of a little tough love, but she delivers it very gently and she's very even keel.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_00] Like I've never seen like, I've never seen like a lot of emotion from her. I've never, like, cause I'm, I've, I've spent my time in rooms with teachers that I watched lose their shit, which is very unattractive in a meditation teacher.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_00] Um, but I have seen that and I've never seen Sharon go anywhere near close to that. You know what I mean? Like she's just very like even keel and she just kind of says what she has to say, but there's just so much wisdom in her that just flows out. Like it's nothing.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_00] And she kind of has this grandmotherly look about her. She does now.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_02] She does now. I mean, on Instagram, like you look at the picture and she, she does look, she looks very gentle and, and she has a couple of videos that she's recorded that where you can hear her voice. And she just, she, she is a, she looks like a normal human being, which is kind of nice. I mean, but a lot of what you see on her page is actually she has a couple, she, she's not afraid to put up, um, like cartoons or memes or whatever that, that, that deliver a good message. Kind of funny.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_02] But, but like, for instance, the one thing, this one just, I mean, it's so it's can't believe I'm like all, I'm, I'm all hung up in it or whatever, everything in life is changing without exception. And the thing about that is it is true.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00] And, and it's the deepest truth, Alan.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_02] It is very true. And the other thing is, is like, I'm feeling that a lot lately.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_00] Okay.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02] I'm feeling that a lot lately. And, and it's, it's like to hear someone, it's to hear someone say that, but like nothing really can stay the same. Nothing does and nothing really can. And, and like, it's hard to embrace that change, but the reality is like, I, I've, I've been feeling like, like if you run through, like, I'm just using the Instagram, but just a lot of stuff she says just hits kind of, kind of right. I guess.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00] Well, again, I mean, what she, what she's introducing in that little one sentence is a very Buddhist teaching. And that, you know, if you know the Buddha, there were four pillars of Buddhism and this life is suffering. And, and it goes on, he goes on to explain that most of our suffering is due to our clinging. And what are we clinging to? We're clinging to impermanence. So we're clinging to the fact that the flowers bloom today. And then we're very upset when it dies tomorrow. But the truth is that there's nothing in life that is going to escape that path.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_00] But I mean, that's the story of the Buddha. That's how the Buddha became the Buddha is he all of a sudden discovered. And I say all of a sudden, cause they did actually the story or the legend of him is that he was being purposely shielded from those realities of life. He was only allowed to see young people. And so he makes an escape into the village and he sees that there are old people and there are sick people and there are dead people. So he, he has this awakening, like, what is this? You know?

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_00] And so again, it's that life is suffering. I was just listening to Ram Dass talk today on my way to and from work, actually. And he talked about the relationship of love and suffering. And this is an interesting one because he says it's two sides of the same coin. But again, these are like, I mean, that's a, it's a very spiritual teaching.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_02] It is.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_00] It is.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_03] It is.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_00] People were losing their shit because they were not allowed to do. So we have this false sense of security that's built around our rituals that we do every day. Right. We've talked about this before. Right. And so someone interrupts those and you're like, no, this means everything's over. You know, like people couldn't handle that. But most of these teachings are about the idea, like Sharon talks about meditation practice being a bhavana or a cultivation. And it's a cultivation of what?

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_00] And she says that it's a cultivation of getting used to it. Like whatever the Pali word is, it's getting used to it. And it's like getting used to what? And it really is the realities of life. You're trying to train yourself to get used to the realities of life. And one of the teachings I love from Sharon, she talks about balance in a way that I've never really heard anyone teach that that way before. But she says, you know, balance is really, it's not about being even keel.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_00] It's not about I've got this much on this side of the scale and the same amount on the other.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, which is, I mean, it's easy to feel that's what you're striving for.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_00] But that's not what balance is. She said it's about your relationship to things and how tightly you hold them. So you're not pulling anything in and you're not pushing anything away. It's just you're there together. And when I say you are there together, what are you together with? You're together with all of the things in your life. The things you don't like, the things you do like, all of them are there with you. And it's your relationship to them that determines the hold they have on you.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_00] And so what she's trying to teach is when something happens that you don't like, you hold it at the same distance that you hold something that you do. Mm-hmm. So it's just it's an interesting way of looking at life and how we're creating our own suffering by clinging to things or pulling them in too hard or trying to push them away so desperately.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_00] That we're making so much more work for ourselves.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. The making the making work thing, I have to say, is I've thought about this a lot lately, too. And it's sort of a you already know Crazy Dental has practically unbeatable prices on everyday dental supplies. But how do we make that deal even sweeter? Free shipping. Jump over to crazydentalprices.com, fill your cart and enter promo code VERYSHIP, all one word, at checkout. That's VERYSHIP, all one word, to wipe out shipping costs on every single order.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_02] Even better, using that code directly supports the Very Dental Podcast Network. Stock up, pocket the savings, get free delivery, and help back the show. Use VERYSHIP, all one word, today. Oh, I think it's probably the Stoics or whatever I like to talk about. But part of it is that...

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_00] Well, Stoics are ripping off Buddhism.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02] But the reality is, though, the message is very similar in that what happens is what happens. And how you react to it, you actually have more choice in that than you...

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_00] That's the only choice you have.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_02] Exactly. It is.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00] Because you're not going to change what's happening.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02] Except you understand, and you work as a dentist, you work as a... I think a lot of people, myself included, depending when I'm not really thinking it through, don't think we have a choice about the reaction. Of course we have to react this way. And the reality is, like... You know, I can be... Okay, classic thing. Everyone has their problems.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_02] I went to a meeting, an NA meeting, a couple days ago. And what's interesting is you go to... I love going to NA meetings because a lot of times... Nothing bad about the fellowship, but there's a lot more newcomers. There's a lot more people that... Having 24 years in NA or more than that, you know, like I have 24, is pretty rare. Most people are on the lower end of things. Most people are newer and a little fresher. And frankly, it's...

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_02] Everyone has problems all the time. Like there is... I think there... There was a time early on in my recovery where I was like, well, I have this all figured out. I just won't have problems anymore. I just won't... And what's so funny is, like, I love people when they're honest and open in a meeting. They kind of explain what they're... What's in front of them and what's the problem at the moment. And you're just like, you know what? There's always going to be something. There's always going to be something.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_02] And so the fact that there's always going to be something... Understand that you can choose how to react to whatever the something is. And it's like, how long am I going to... How long am I going to feel terrible about this? How long am I going to... I mean, you and I text on daily on a regular basis. And it's a bitch session most of the time. But I've also come... Just lately, I've come to realize, I'm like, I don't, you know... I can be all upset about it or I can just kind of like...

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02] It's going to happen one way or the other. It's as you always say. You can just be with it. We always make through it. We always make it through it. No matter what. You know, the stupid owning a practice and financial bullshit and all this stuff.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_00] Why did we do that, Alan?

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_02] The other thing is, you and I have both... I mean, like, we are both solidly... We're kind of maybe well past mid-career at this point. I can't even believe I'm saying that. But it's true when you think about it. I don't know where mid-career ends and late career starts. I'm not exactly sure. But I know I'm approaching that. We might be just over that hill. Why do I act like the stupid shit happening... Oh, running a practice and all that stuff. Like, why do I act like this time it's going to take me down? Like... Oh, I know.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_02] I've only done this shit a thousand times and it's always... It always... You know, you just get through it. It's ugly, you know? And I will say, too, that one of the reasons that I really try hard not to have too much dental stuff on my social media is because you would believe that you're the only person that's not got this all figured out. You know what I'm saying?

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00] Well, again, so I don't look at that stuff.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_02] Good. Don't.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I don't. Don't. Also, because I think those people are full of shit. They are. That's my biggest thing. It's like, you're full of shit. Shut up.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_02] I don't want to hear you. Social media is... Outside of the cat videos, frankly, and the dog videos are lies, essentially. You almost assume that they're lies and less proven otherwise. And that's a better way to be. And certainly don't let it affect you the way I let it affect me sometimes. But the reality is, it is funny how it's a recovery thing. It's like, I'm a slow learner and a fast forgetter. And God damn it, if it isn't this... I mean, I continue to be that way. Because, you know, and I've told you this, you know, every September, I think to myself, why didn't I plan better for this?

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_00] Well, because it went up. Because it went up.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_00] Because it's more than it was last year. Yeah.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_02] But on top of that, it's like, I know that, yes, I know that my township taxes are going to be coming due in there. Where, like you said, the digit in the fourth place, the thousands digit, is different this year than it was last year. So higher, by the way. And then my malpractice insurance also did change higher this year. Mine too. And I've had no...

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_00] And my building insurance and my home insurance because I bought a nicer home.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_02] And somehow in my life, I have made it so it all comes due in September. And how can I...

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_00] Well, we didn't do that. But I think the government did, to be fair.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02] Damn that government. But I mean, but there's a lot... Okay, the taxes, but also the insurance. I don't... And it always hits me in September. And I'm always thinking to myself, why don't I plan better for this? Why don't I know this is coming and like kind of...

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_00] Because you're living in the moment.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. It snuck up on me again. And I'm like, it shouldn't sneak up on me only because, yes, living in the moment has its pros. But it would also be like, ah, you could set a little aside, make this a little easier. In any case. But I mean, like last week was the week where I was actually losing sleep over this. And this week I have come to grips with it and I'm not.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00] So I wrote something down and this is from Sharon. And that's why I got my Sharon notebook out when you told me you wanted to talk about Sharon. And what you just said reminded me of this. And I actually sent part of this to you earlier today. But she's talking about, you know, she kind of has this same, you know, vibe that she gives or in the same basic lessons she'll lay out every time. Because I have like my notebook. I noticed I wrote the same things down like six times, same notebook. Because again, I'm just sitting with her for the first day of class and I'm writing down.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_00] So she talks about meditation being a skills training. And this is something we've talked about before. And she says it's three main skills, concentration, mindfulness, and loving kindness. But then she says, and this was something I wrote in the notes, it says, and it points up to concentration and mindfulness. It says regretful rumination is our default.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. Yeah, it is.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_00] Or worry for the future. And then it says, and this is something one of her teachers asked her when she was very young. And that is, why are you adding negative self-image to an already painful experience?

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_00] So that was something I wrote down. And again, from Sharon, because it's making this point that regretful rumination is absolutely our default. It is. And regretful rumination takes many forms. Some people call it their demons. And I have some stuff about that too, that I can share. But it's that idea that when you have nothing else to be thinking about, which is, you know, anytime your brain is quiet for three seconds, what do you start thinking about?

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_00] Your taxes.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_02] Let me just suggest too. Your bullshit. As a 55-year-old man, I wake up in the morning because I have to go to the bathroom and then

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_03] you lay back down and that's when the demons are there. Yes.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_02] A lot of times I'm tired enough, I can fall right back to sleep. But boy, if I don't in that first couple of minutes, oh man, I'm in for it. I know. I've spent so many nights. My mind will go to the regretful ruminations. Definitely. So this is a thing.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_00] This is a thing. This is a thing. It's every human being, at least since the Buddha. Like, that's Sharon's measuring stick, right? So every human being, at least since the Buddha, has had this as their default mechanism probably long before that. And their life problems were very different than ours. I would argue that our life problems are, I've never wondered, I've wondered what I'm going to eat with dread. Like, now I have to think about what I have for dinner. You know? I've never worried about not having food.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_02] If I was going to be able to. Yeah, exactly.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_00] Which is probably what most of humanity has been. For most of the history of human beings, having food was probably one of the larger concerns. We don't ever think about that.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, probably township taxes.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_00] We're just annoyed that we have to like cook it or whatever, you know?

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_02] Exactly, yeah.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_00] So the key is to train your mind to go somewhere else.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_03] Yes.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_00] Do you know what I mean? Like, so you talk about that 4 a.m. wake up. So I do, I have the 4 a.m. wake up and I get up and I get back in bed and I can go, God, I gotta, my taxes. I'm so broke, my taxes. I can do that. And oh, I'm so good at that. I'm super good at that. Like, that's probably my best skill is making a mountain out of a molehill, right? But I could also choose to put my brain somewhere else. And personally, I have had luck more recently. I love my friend Melissa, because when we were in teacher training together, she said

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_00] that we were always taught not to use your mantra for sleep. And she goes, I've been using my mantra for sleep. And guess what? The meditation police haven't showed up.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Like you can do it.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_00] In other words, I'm going to challenge whatever it is someone told you you can't do. Whatever works. If it works, do it.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah, whatever works.

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_00] But I just count.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_00] I just count. And it's counting sheep. How long have we heard that? Yeah, it's because people had stuff figured out long before we got here. We just don't listen to them.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_02] It's not that the count, it's the distraction of the whole thing.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_00] Yes, I just need my brain to do something else.

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_02] And if you're already mostly sleepy, I will say I did this. I think I told you I did this. The one night I was a mess. I couldn't do it. And the next night I said, I can't do this anymore. And I was able to put my mind, I mean, I think I was thinking about sports or I was thinking about something completely separate from, and I was just tired enough that I was able to, but.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_00] But that's the exercise. I mean, and this is where, again, you know, I mean, I'm a meditation teacher, so this is what I'm going to plug is that the act of meditation is exactly what we're describing. It's the idea that we get lost somewhere else. Like we're trying to focus on something and then we drift away to thoughts about you name it or a sound that went off or was that a gunshot? You know, whatever.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_02] Stevie Wonder lyrics is what Sharon wants to talk about. Sharon has one, like she's got a pie chart and a large piece of the pie chart is Stevie Wonder lyrics.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_00] Oh God, I love that.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_00] But she also has a lot of the self-deprecating thoughts. She's like, I know everyone else in this room has a light on them and where's my light? I don't have a light, you know, like all that. So, but it's the idea. So you get caught over there and the whole exercise is that you have to realize you got caught. You have to go crap. I'm thinking about my taxes again. And then bring yourself back to the counting or the mantra that's forbidden for sleep or anything, anything that isn't that. If it's sports, I don't know, whatever your game is.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_00] Stevie Wonder lyrics.

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_02] I don't even like sports, but I was just coming up with something that wasn't that.

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_00] Right.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_02] That's the story.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_00] But in that exercise, it's easier if you're practiced at it. So that's why daily meditation practice is so beneficial because you can train your brain to get out of that groove.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_02] You practice it for, for, for when you don't practice it when you don't need it for when you do need it. That is what practice is. Exactly.

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_00] Practice is not an in the moment thing. It's you, you practice now so that when you need it later, it's there.

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_00] The skill is there.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_00] And again, it will, it can improve your life in so many ways. The thing about the demons, I've been sharing this story a lot lately. It's good coming up probably partly because of our bitch sessions every day. But so I was at a Krishna Das thing and there was a woman who asked a question and that woman was, she looked tired. She looked tired and sad. She had been really, but you know what I'm saying? Like she looked like a person who life had been really hard to.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_00] And she said to Krishna Das, she said, I've been battling my demons for so long. And she goes, and I just don't know that I have the strength to do it anymore. And I just felt like I'm so like, I can picture that woman's face. This was, you know, five years ago probably. And I can still see her face. And it was, it was like you wanted to give her a hug, you know, like, but the thing about the demons and again, the demons, it's the regretful rumination. But what Krishna Das said to her was actually quite beautiful.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_00] And it is also from Buddhist teachings. He said that he said several, he said several things, but the first of which was, they're not coming for you. You're clinging to them. In other words, it's not, you're not laying in bed and then your taxes come for you. You know what I mean? Like you're laying in bed and you're bringing that in. You're bringing it in. You're making a choice to bring it in. And then he said, maybe you should, instead of fighting them, invite them in for tea.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_00] In other words, get comfortable with them. What if we could just get comfortable with our taxes? And again, this woman's battle was way bigger than taxes. You know what I mean? Like, it's not that, but the idea of being comfortable with the things that aren't comfortable, it's that balance. I'm not going to pull them in. I'm not inviting them into my bed at 4am, but I'm also not going to push them away if they show up. Maybe they can just lay next to me and we can be silent together.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_02] It's interesting because something I said earlier, and I know that Instagram, I was saying how somehow people somehow like to kind of stick on the things that enrage them or bother them. I'm thinking to myself, this is very similar. This is like, it's almost like there's a comfort in knowing that it's going to set you off or whatever. And yeah, don't invite.

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_00] Well, it's a familiarity.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00] It's a familiarity. So we've created that regretful thought. We created that groove in our brain.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. So we made a pathway. It's easy to fall back into it. In the brain. There's a certain level of comfort, even though it's uncomfortable. It's a certain level. But it's familiar. It's familiar. Yeah, exactly. I get that. I feel that. Yeah.

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_00] But again, it's the clinging. Yeah. He says that. He says, they're not coming for you. You're clinging to them. So again, like we're holding them so tight. We're holding them so tight. He's like, God, my nexus. You know, like we're holding it so tight when if we could just maybe ease that tension. We don't have to let it, you know, we don't have to push it away either. Again, it's that balance. It's kind of letting it be in our awareness without taking over.

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah.

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_00] We can be aware of it without being consumed by it.

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_00] And that is a skill that we can all choose. And again, you know, maybe we haven't been practicing for the last 20 years or five years or one year. But if in that moment we can realize that the demon has come and we pulled it in real tight, we can have, we can make that choice no different than we do in our meditation practice. We can say, you know what? I'm going to let go of that. And I'm going to come back to this. We can make that choice in every moment. And that really is the challenge with those well-worn paths.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_00] The well-worn path is so much easier than the keep going back and forth. Back and forth. But if we don't make those choices, our whole life is disrupted.

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02] The other thing that I got to say in, in just, I was going through some of her, her posts and stuff. And one of the things was that she said is basically, uh, you can always start over. You can always, you can always like when you've, when you've, and I think she's sort of referring to it as in when you're, you're meditating, you're doing meditation, you're working on your meditation and you get distracted, you get pulled away. You can always start over.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Let go, begin again.

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_02] Exactly. Let go, begin again. And that's something that I think a lot of people don't realize that it's like, I've, I've lost too much or I've lost too much. I'm like, nah, not really. I mean, the reality is, is it's, it's, I think it's there for you. That's I, it's, it's helpful. It's helpful. It's helpful to know that. And it's, you got to train your own brain a little bit to do this stuff. It's so easy to get distracted by, I don't know, you got to live in your own head. So you got to kind of, you got to work on that. You know, I hate, I got to work on that.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_00] We all have things to work on and it's, it's our responsibility to our own health to work on those things. No different than it's our responsibility to make decent food choices most of the time, you know what I mean? And to like get some exercise and move your body. It's no different than that. You have to complete that circle and also train your mind to, to, to get out of those grooves that are torturing us. Because here's the other thing.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_00] It's a lot easier to go for a run and choose to eat a salad rather than a cheeseburger. If you are feeling mentally okay. Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? It's almost like we layer on the punishments. We're going to sit on the couch and we eat pizza. Now don't give me your, I love doing that. But there's a large portion of people who do that all the time.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_05] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_00] And so you can't fall into that trap. Yeah. And it's absolutely important to our wellness that we take care of that aspect of our mental 100% being of our, of our mental being. You have to take ownership of it because it is, it's no different than, you know, putting on too much weight and making bad food choices. You absolutely have a choice.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_02] It's, it's, and it's, it's, some people go, Oh God, one more thing. But this one, this one is not.

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_00] This one, the reward is so big.

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_02] It's not, it's not as hard as it sounds either. I think it's not, it takes, it takes consistency probably more than brilliance. Right. Like it's, it's not, you know, you don't have to be the smartest person in the world. It's, it's, this is more about, about taking the time and being consistent about it.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_00] It literally requires nothing.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_00] And that's why, again, you know, as a teacher, I've discouraged apps always because I don't want my students dependent on anything. You don't need an app. You have a nose and a mouth and air goes in and out. That's all you need. You don't need any of that. And honestly, I don't want you in a tense moment driving on the highway going, I need my app. You know, like we don't need anything. You need nothing. You need literally nothing. You need no skills, no training, no nothing. It's with you already. Just put your attention on it. You have attention, put it on it.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_02] We should, we should wrap. We've been going and I don't want to leave after all this, the call to the, you know, the, what someone who says, okay, I need, I need to learn these skills. What, where, where do they go? What's the, like you, you suggested Sharon's book, you know, Sharon has several books.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_00] Real happiness is a great one. Okay. What about just going on Sharon's website? Yep. She has many classes and what I love about Buddhists, she has many classes that you don't pay for. So you can go on her website and you can go to like events and it'll have like workshops and classes. Take one and you, and a lot of them, again, they're free.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_00] Or it's a pay what you can, you know what I mean? So if you want to throw 50 bucks at them, you can, if you want to throw five bucks at them, you can.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_03] Yep.

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_00] But there are many, I'm trying to think of the one, I did take an online class. It was her and Christian does. I'd have to dig it out. But, but there are many on her website. There are. You can also just go on YouTube and watch a video. Sharon Salzberg teaches meditation.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_02] Yep.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_00] And then watch the video.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_02] This is so cool. Like her, her, her, her website is just full of stuff. She's got a podcast too. Cause you know, doesn't everyone really? I mean, that's really cool. That's, this is, so that's the place to start. It's a place to start.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_00] It looks like the class that I took online was called the power of the loving heart, which I realized not for everyone, but it's, you know, again, she's teaching the same material packaged up 80 different ways. So it's like toothpaste. So, so, um, you know, pick something that calls to you, but truly, I mean, it 10 minutes on a video and you have a technique that works. You just have to do it.

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, this isn't what I've covered on the podcast much lately, but I think this is something we all really kind of need to hear a little bit. It's a, so I'm, I'm glad, I'm glad we did it. Uh, I'm glad, I'm glad you're, I'm glad you're in your new house with your, with your library in the background. I'm glad that it's, you know, we, it was a year ago that we talked about some other stuff, but we always, what did we talk about?

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_00] I don't even remember.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_02] We talked, we, honestly, we talked about probably influencers and how irritating some of the, I think we're some of that stuff.

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_00] The people who are full of shit.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, but the reality is we always kind of talk about the same thing on some level or another. So that's, that's great. All right, Dawn, thank you a ton for being on. This was great. And if you guys have any questions or comments, you can find, find Dawn and me. Easiest place is the very little Facebook group. Well, if you have any questions for her, I'll make sure she gets them and we can talk about it on there or wherever, but appreciate you guys listening. And I appreciate you being on.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_00] Thank you for having me. It was fun.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_02] We'll talk again soon.