Very Dental: Katrina Klein, RDH on Protecting Your Career with Dental Ergonomics

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[00:01:55] This is a production of the Very Dental Podcast Network. This is the Very Dental Podcast. Welcome to the Very Dental Podcast, where you'll find entertaining and relevant conversations with visionaries, clinicians, and your friends in the dental space. Now, here's your host, Dr. Alan Mead.

[00:02:23] Very Dental people, welcome to another episode of the Very Dental Podcast, recorded here live at the Chicago Midwinter Meeting. Joining me now, well, she's been on the show multiple times. The first time was, I remember, God, it was, I'll bet you it was six years ago, something like that. She's here at the Midwinter speaking. She's representing. Katrina Klein, welcome to the show. Thank you. Yeah, it's been a couple times. I think the first time was probably like 2017 or something.

[00:02:52] So here's why I bring it up. It's like Katrina is essentially, if you look at ergonomics and dentistry, she's kind of the pinnacle speaker. And she goes to offices and helps people with ergonomics, and she speaks on it all over the place. But when we talked, you were just starting. Yeah. You were just trying to get your name out there. And what's wild is I'm like, yeah, I don't know that I had any advice on that. You knew your topic and you knew it was necessary.

[00:03:20] But lo and behold, now you're like, you're everywhere. I mean, like, it's been a wild ride for you. So I kind of want you to like, I'll find the episode and put it in the show notes, the original episodes. But how in the world did you, how did you become what you are? I mean, I've known you forever, but it's like, how did this all happen? Well, I don't know. Hashtag lives on planes, you know? You know, the answer is always yes. Yep. And that's something that I've kind of always had a philosophy on.

[00:03:49] And if somebody needs my help, I'm going to give it to them. And something I learned early is just give generously, give from your heart. And that's what I'm here for. And I think that that follows through. I hope that, I love that. I hope people don't take advantage of you for it. Because let's be honest, these meetings sometimes don't pay so well for the speakers. I know, I know. One reason I don't speak about addiction anymore is like, honorariums are kind of like, they were sort of going down. Right? So, you know, this is a necessary topic. It is.

[00:04:19] But it's ergonomics in general. I mean, you can talk on, you can speak on a lot of things as we were talking about a minute ago. But I mean, and I was literally talking to someone else earlier, like, ergonomics and wellness and like, when I spoke on addiction and mental health stuff is important. But they don't, they feel like it doesn't bring people in in the same way that sexy implant slides and stuff like that. It's not really fair because it's probably, we all need this.

[00:04:48] I'm sure you walk around this meeting and see a lot of slumped necks. We all need this. But it's not, it's not this, it doesn't, meetings and people don't necessarily have the draw. It's almost like, it's something we need, but something that people maybe don't want to pay the attention to. Well, yeah, I mean, it's like anything else that's preventive, right? You know, and so, you know, the least expensive thing in the office is what? A cleaning. Right? What has the most impact on their overall health, right? If they would just take care of their teeth.

[00:05:17] And, and adversely, when you look at, you know, dental clinicians, if, if you, if we stop looking at, I know it's so bad. And, you know, as an ergonomics specialist and a hygienist and, and a personal trainer, like I look at people in the teeth and I look at people in their posture and I look at, and all these lenses are there. And I'm like, oh, you could just fix that. Yeah. If you just did a little bit of the, it's like a charcuterie board, you know? Yeah. Do a little bit of this, do a little bit of that. Buy a little bit of equipment, do a few stretches, whatever. And you would see a dramatic difference.

[00:05:48] Right? For stretches, for one thing too, that Katrina spends a fair amount of time on social media, literally showing you stretches. It's really funny. It, it's worth the follow just so you'll see it. And then you'll probably see it like between patients or something in the office. And then you might try it. Yeah. Cause you just like literally say, try this one. Like the shoulder one where you lean on the wall. I've been doing that one. Yeah. It's very good. And what's funny is it's like when it's spoon fed to you, when you're doom scrolling on your phone, it's not hard to just try it. Right?

[00:06:16] Like it's not, you don't have a huge commitment, especially if it's the kind of stuff you do a lot of it where you're literally in a dental office showing like between patients stuff. Totally. Yeah. And, and that's what I really try to aim for is practicality because listen, we're all busy. We've got kids, we've got businesses where, you know, we're high functioning people in dentistry. We don't have time for a lot of extra things, but you make time for what you make time for. That's exactly right.

[00:06:39] And if you've got, for me as a hygienist, you know, and I'm still a practicing hygienist three or four days a week, believe it or not. Um, you know, when the doctor's doing an exam, I'm stretching behind the patient head. They can't see it. I feel like you need video of that. You need, you need to literally have someone take a, take a video of the doc doing the exam and you doing the full on stretches and everything. That'd be, that'd be really good. Well, I do stretches with my patients. Yeah. You know, because that's another thing. A lot of our patients since the pandemic, they're hunched over laptops at home.

[00:07:07] They've got these home offices that are literally horrendous. Yeah. I'm sure that gives you nightmares. And I've, I do ergonomic assessments for people in their home offices too. So, you know, I get calls and I'm helping people in that way, but I see these things and I'm like, ah, so I actually will talk to my patients about that. Mm-hmm . And I'll say, oh yeah, there's a stretch you could do for that. You know, they say, oh yeah, my shoulder's hurting me or my neck is hurting me or this is. And I'm like, well, hey, we've got those problems. Try this stretch. And don't you know, they come back to me six months later for their cleaning and they're like, oh, I did that stretch. Yeah.

[00:07:37] Do you know what? My case acceptance is probably ridiculously high because I care. Yeah. Because you can do stretches. Yeah. Because you can do stretches. I love it. Well, just, I care more about them than just their teeth. Yeah. You know, like I care about the person there. No, I totally get that. That's interesting. Very interesting. So, to me, that's a big deal. You know, you just, just, just be nice. I got, I got a story for you. So back in 2020, uh, it was in June, like they had just let us back into the, um, they just

[00:08:06] let us back into the, hang on a second here. I think that's Tim. Tim don't, oh, he's just, okay, cool. Good. But that's, that's my next one. So, uh, I, in June of 2020, I decided to stop running cause I jacked up my, I ran all through the pandemic and I lost a bunch of weight and it was great, but my ankles were all messed. Like I, a dude as heavy as I was had no business running and it was a mess. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to ride my bike. So I got on my bike, decided to ride my bike, got hit by a truck that day.

[00:08:36] Yes, I remember. And I broke my back and I was wearing a brace. And the neurosurgeon, uh, who made me wait in the hospital bed for like 20 hours. Great gig, man. You make your patients wait in the hospital like that. He's swell. No surgeries necessary. Just wear this, just wear this brace and it'll hurt less and you'll heal either way or don't wear the brace. I don't care. It won't make any difference. The guy was like, he was, he was funny, but he's also like, but then he said, oh yeah, I also, I saw your neck.

[00:09:05] We'll talk in 15 years or so. I'm like, Oh my God. Like that. It was sort of like the side swipe of, Oh, I know you're a dentist. Cause I can tell by your neck. I'm like, ah, cause he had, you know, I had the full MRI workup. And I'm like, okay, so that's real. That's real. And that's a guy for a guy who actually works in a microscope and has loops that are, you know, like, I mean, it's hard. It's hard to do it right. It's hard to be good about it. Yeah. You know what I will say? I've done assessments with dentists who have used microscopes and Adonis regular, you know, whatever.

[00:09:33] And they have forward head posture. So we have to remember that it's not just having your head upright. Yep. It's also keeping your head back. Yeah. And the more that we use our digital devices, we don't have our heads up and our ears above our shoulders. Yeah. So we have this, this head coming up in front of you situation. It's worse than that. We don't have that so much that, that when you do do it, it feels unnatural. Yeah. It feels like what feels natural is when you're like leaning over it. I mean, a hundred percent.

[00:10:00] Like I don't, and I don't know how do you, how can you make that natural? Like, is it just, is it just force of habit over time? What do you, what do you recommend to help people? I mean, posture alone is something that like literally I'm, I'm sitting here squatting over. Cause that's just what I do. Yeah. You know, honestly it has to do with what you do 90% of the time. Mm-hmm. And so when I've got my phone in my hand, I have my phone up. Most of the time you'll see me, I've got my elbow kind of up against my rib cage. So you're making sure. Yeah. So that my head is upright.

[00:10:28] And when I do that, the front of my head is not hanging off the front of my body. All the musculature on the back of my neck and my upper traps and my shoulders are not recruiting to hold that bowling ball on. Mm-hmm. And it makes it so much better so that I can maintain neutral posture. Now, do I do neck stretching? Yes. Do I do neck strengthening? Sure. Yes. Do I practice good posture when I'm driving? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So it's what you do all the time. It's very intentional. It's very intentional. You have to be very intentional. I get it.

[00:10:56] And it is funny too how like it's kind of physics a little bit. Yeah. Like when you're talking about the forward head posture, like just literally just the way that you're carrying, you know. Yeah. A slight lean, it magnifies that weight of your head, you know. Right. Maybe we should just like have very strong helium balloons like on a little headband. Yeah. And then it just carry your head for you. You could do whatever. I'm sure that'd be good. They actually have like these weight, these weight things. Yeah. That you use to strengthen your neck.

[00:11:27] And it pushes your head back. Yeah. After you use the front of your neck, which is weak. Yeah. From leaning down. So you have neck flexion and you have forward head. Yeah. And they have these things where you actually have to like strengthen your neck by doing that. Yeah. Physical therapists, man, they come up with crazy stuff like that. They do. I mean, and actually the exercises that you do are the ones that'll work, you know. Yeah. It's one of the problems with PT. It's a, you know, you go to the PT, they tell you what to do and then you stop doing that. Yeah. Exactly. Well, you know, it's funny.

[00:11:53] I used to say that this really smart guy, Einstein said that insanity is the definition. Yeah. It wasn't Einstein. It wasn't Einstein. Ben Franklin. No. Rita, Rita May, Rita Ray Brown. Okay. She was an author. Okay. And it makes sense because it goes along with what he would talk about. Sure. But, um, what I find often is that we get an injury in dentistry from whatever the thing is, shoulders, necks, hips, whatever. We get surgery. Mm-hmm. We get PT. Mm-hmm.

[00:12:22] We feel better. Mm-hmm. We go back to the operatory. We do the same darn thing. Yeah. We did before. So like, at what point do we say we've got to do something different? Yeah. It's like that patient who says, I'm only going to brush my teeth but I'm not going to floss. Yeah. Okay. So like, at what point do you want to stop getting interproximal cavities? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You just let me know, right? It is funny. And the other thing is, you know, I, what I want to say is, oh, those dumb people. But I'm as guilty as anything.

[00:12:47] Like, it's just, it's sort of, it is, it's like a matter of how do you make a habit? How do you, like, I mean, have you always been paying attention because you've been in the exercise world and stuff like that? Or was there ever a time, you know, was there a come to Jesus meeting with Katrina that basically made her into the ergonomic, like, cause it's hard. It's hard to think about it. It's hard to keep thinking about it. So, what's interesting is that for me, I am one of the first people in my college, or my family to graduate from college. Okay. And so, I knew this was a one-time deal. Mm-hmm.

[00:13:17] And I came from very humble means. Mm-hmm. So, going to college was a one-time affair. Mm-hmm. I was not going to do it again. And I had to protect this career with everything I had. Yeah. And I would tell my patients all the time, this is a 10-year career. I got to have a backup, blah, blah, blah. And here I was at 10, 11 years, not in pain. And I'm like, well, pretty soon I'm going to eventually have pain, I'm sure, you know? And then I had this brand new baby hygienist come into my office. I had a group practice and she was two years out of school. Yeah. She said, Katrina, I am not going to be able to practice for five years.

[00:13:46] I go to the chiropractor twice a week. I get massages every month. Oh, jeez. And I looked at her ergonomics and I was like, oh my gosh, honey, this is why. You need to fix your lube. She needed to put the patient this way. And then I took her to the gym with me because I was in my bodybuilding competitions. Yep, yep, yep. I strength trained her for six to eight weeks. Mm-hmm. And she goes, I have no pain. So that was sort of the moment. She was also 25. Yeah. So you heal like nobody's business. Sure you do, sure you do, yeah. But I was like, okay, please fix her. But you were able to catch her at 25. Yeah. So the turnaround is there. Yeah.

[00:14:15] And she's the one that made me do this. She said, you have to share this. That's really cool. There's too many hygienists that do not know. And then I was going to be just for hygienists. Yeah. And then a friend that I have said, do you think hygienists are the only ones that have body pain? Yeah. I was like, no, but nobody's going to listen to me. I'm just a hygienist. Not true. Yeah. See, that's just it. And the other thing is, okay, so the very best practice model in the world would be an office

[00:14:41] that does endodontics and only takes cash and only works on patients who have a really hot tooth. Because you know what? The patients in pain, they're willing to do when they're hurting. And so on some level, there's plenty of dentists in pain. There's plenty of assistants. There's plenty. I mean, you name it, but so I suspect if you have the solution, I don't know that it matters that you're just a hygienist in quotes. It's like, that's interesting. Very interesting.

[00:15:09] Well, and I have learned that there's something that you know about called the gift of desperation. Yeah, sure. And we get it. Yeah. In dentistry, we get it. And it's that call usually about 10 years before. Yeah. It's like, oh gosh, Katrina, I'm having to lengthen my procedures out to four hours. Yeah. I'm calling out days. I can't do this anymore. I've had a surgery already. I can't get another one. What am I going to do? I mean, we're talking about people, doctors who have an entire staff under them. They're terrified to lose their business. And so they're desperate enough to talk to me. Yeah.

[00:15:38] And they're always so happy when I leave. Yeah. And that's what keeps me going. Well, you know, the thing that kills me is that first off, anyone, I know tons of dentists who've had all kinds of surgeries, by the way. And I'm just, my thing is like, man, don't have surgery. I'm, this is not medical advice because I don't, but on the other hand, don't have surgery until you've looked at some of this stuff. Cause I mean, this is completely anecdotal, but back surgeries, no one ever comes out of the back surgery. You go, this is sweet. It's perfect.

[00:16:06] You know, it's never, they're always like, well, it's a little better. And you know what? Who's the person? How many people have one back surgery? It's not many dentists. No. Like, like on some level there's always, and surgeons like to do surgery. So it's one of those things where if that's who you're consulting with or if that's who you're, so on some level, what do you have to lose? Right. Like it's, it's a, it's, I mean, the way, the way that you consult and stuff, I don't know.

[00:16:32] I just feel like it, I, the idea of surgery scares me for the sheer fact that I've not heard a lot of success stories or a lot of people that were really glad they did it. Well, and even those that do go down that route, I have a lot now, a lot of surgeon friends and they've told me that the outcome of their surgeries are so much better for people who have done some of these things ahead of time. Interesting. They've opened up their range of motion. Yeah. They, you know, they've made those muscles that are, you know, statically contracted. Yeah.

[00:17:02] They've, they've done the foam. They've started something because if they go in there and when they cut, it's just like a rubber band. Oh my God. Yeah. No, I feel that. I get it. Yeah. If they can do something, even if it doesn't get them completely out of surgery, it'll, it'll prepare them. And then their outcome at the end on the, on the other side of it is they're already doing it. They're used to it. They've already got a routine in the rehab because rehab is one of those things where you gotta put, you gotta put a lot of effort into rehab no matter what. That's right. So much.

[00:17:29] It's really, it's one of those things where like, it's never a bad thing to do self care. No, that's right. That's right. And it's significantly less expensive. It's frankly less time off, that sort of thing. I mean, just even having a consult in your office. I mean, she said she lives on planes and that's partly because she speaks a lot, but she also does a lot of consults all over the place for ergonomic consults. I see, I mean, you put it up on social media, so I see a lot of that stuff. So I'm on, I'm in dental offices all the time. Yeah. You know, and I work with a whole team. Yeah.

[00:17:58] I'm just going there and like, oh, I'm just going to work with the dentist. Yeah. I'm going to ignore everybody else. I mean, I just can't do that. So, you know, I give a lecture at lunch hour. We do stretches together. I watch them and I do one-on-one because no operator is the same. Yeah. No operator is the same. Yeah. Yeah. They have different problems, different issues. Particularly good to do. Like for instance, a lot of hygienists work in a particular operatory so you can actually give them the pointers in the operatory where they'll be working. Right. So like that's very specific to the situation. I like that. Yeah.

[00:18:25] Well, and do you know, this is something I found out recently that if a business owner trains all of their staff on ergonomics, they can actually get a discount on their workers' comp insurance. Oh, interesting. Well, that makes perfect sense actually. And we're talking about like less than the cost of an implant for a patient. Yeah. And I make it so affordable because I just want to reach more people. Yeah. You know, the other thing is that workers' comp thing, that's very interesting. Yeah. Like that's not to be taken lightly because that is a cost. You're stroking that check every year. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah.

[00:18:55] And not only that, imagine, okay, so yes, they give you a discount on your rate, but also you're not using it. You're not calling out. No, that's a great point. They're not getting injured. Yeah. You're not replacing your hygienist. Yeah. You know, whether they file a workers' comp claim or not, you're not replacing them because they're going out on back surgery. Yeah, because they're out. Yeah, exactly. So it's just, the ROI for ergonomics is not in any one procedure, which is why it's never on the main stage of any event. I know. But here's why. It's because it's a soft subject.

[00:19:25] It is. But the ROI is in every single procedure code that we built. That's no different than when I was speaking on addiction. It's not, you know, the, it's, it's soft subject and okay. So Arizona did it really well. Arizona did the thing where they had to, everyone has to have three hours per, I don't know. I don't know if it's once in a lifetime or once in a second on, on addiction. And so they would bring me in and it was great. You go in and the room was enormous, like 1500 people.

[00:19:54] It was like, it was like, it was like a rockstar stadium. I had two screens on either side and it was a raised stage and I'm like, they're here for me. And then I'm like, oh no, no, no. Everyone in the entire damn state of Arizona is getting, getting their three hours of addiction. And they brought me in multiple times. It was kind of great, actually. It was kind of fun. And, and I mean, you've, you know, you can lecture to a study club that's 20 people. You can lecture to 15. It's a different vibe, man. And it's like, yeah. Like had I known I would have had my own entrance music and stuff like that. Yeah.

[00:20:23] But it's, I, it is a smart way to do it. They should do the same dang thing for ergonomics. They should require that. And then Arizona bring Katrina in, give her the big stage. You'll have healthier people. They won't be so slouched over at the meeting. It'd be good. Yeah. Well, I'll be at, uh, well, I'm speaking here at Chicago winter. Yep. Tell me about that. What are you tomorrow? Tomorrow morning. Okay. So I get everybody fresh. Yeah. No, that's good. That's good. Um, yeah, I mean, I'm all over the place. I'm at the state association meetings. Yeah. I'm, you know, I'm everywhere.

[00:20:53] Yeah. And this is, as long as somebody wants to hear me talk about it, I'm willing to be there. Okay. So you, and you have, you work with certain companies. I know last year you showed me the forest chair, the, the, which is the dental operate, like the chair your patient sits in. Yeah. Because it's got, it can lay flatter and go lower and all the things that you'd need as an ergonomic, like as an idea. Okay. So that you can stand as well as sitting. Okay. Okay. And then their patient chair is actually not as, it's more shallow. Yeah, exactly.

[00:21:21] So, which is one of the things that it's really in a lot of patients or a lot of chairs make it hard for you to get up underneath it. Yeah. Right. Exactly. So that's one thing I really like. And the back is narrow. Narrower. Yeah. So we like that. And of course, you know, like all the, all the people, they have like, you know, massage functioning and heating and whatever else we do for patients to distract them. But it is, it is interesting that like, I don't think there's probably a lot of manufacturers that sweat the ergonomics. And of course they, you're using that damn chair for everyone all the time. Right. It's like, it's a serious thing to think about.

[00:21:50] Well, it's just like your saddle stools. Yeah. It's like your operator chairs. We go and we get this free saddle round flat chair that we spend eight hours of our life on. You couldn't design a worse chair, honestly. Oh my goodness. And I'm like, and everybody's complaining about back pain. I'm like, can you just go on over to like the crown seating booth over here and get yourself a saddle? Yeah. And you can thank me later or don't thank me later. Just, just do it for yourself. I mean, I have been using a saddle chair for, I've used a bunch of different kinds and they,

[00:22:21] I'll bet I've been using one for 20 years and everyone thought I was, they still think I'm kind of crazy. Like the hygienist, I have them for everyone. The hygienists sort of don't choose to use it a lot of the times I am. And I'm thinking to myself, and when I go in to do the exam, they roll in a saddle chair for me. How crazy is it? And the same thing with the microscopes. They, I, I do the exams in the microscopes and with a saddle chair, but they're doing their hygiene thing is, you know, part of it is like, I, can I make them do anything? You can't make anyone do anything. Let's be honest. But that's how, that's kind of how it, that's kind of how it goes.

[00:22:51] It's, it's interesting. Well, I will tell you what the saddle stools. I just make it, every stool is a saddle stool. No, no options. But you gotta fit, you gotta fit. Yeah, you gotta fit the person. So when I was in hygiene school, they brought in a saddle stool for us to try and it made things go numb that shouldn't be going numb. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It didn't fit me. Of course, I'm not your average. I was just gonna say, I'll bet you, I'll bet you the ones that I have wouldn't fit you very well because it's, I mean, they're big chairs. They're, they're decent sized chairs. And that's a, so for me, I recommend that people go buy their own chair and it doesn't

[00:23:20] mean that they have to spend their own money to do it. But you know, I tell hygienists, ask your doc, Hey, can I earn a saddle stool that I get to keep? Yeah. I make the numbers happen. You buy it, you get the tax write off, but I take it with me if I ever go anywhere, but you're going to be so amazing because you just bought me the saddle stool. I'm never going to want to. Mm-hmm . Right. So, but then you get the one that fits you because for 10 years of my career, I didn't like them. When you, when people come, like, I know you've been to the crown booth here too. Do you, are you able to help people figure out what fits them? Yeah. That's, that's why they bring like a bazillion different chairs. Yeah.

[00:23:50] It makes sense to do that because yeah. Totally. Can you tell, can you tell immediately? Is it obvious or is it sometimes hard to tell? So it's kind of like putting on a pair of pants. Yeah. So someone has to teach you how to put the pants on first. Yeah. So what I do is I tell them how to sit in the chair correctly so that they know they're seated correctly on it. Okay. And then I say, okay, now that you know how you're supposed to sit, go try them all on. Yeah. And you'll know. It's like putting, you take four pairs of pants into the dressing room and you know right away what fits you. Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. And it just has a feel. Yeah.

[00:24:20] So, and I mean, crown is a great one. I love crown seatings. BQE is another great one. There's a lot of really good stools out there. I just encourage, don't go get your next day delivery chair because it's not going to last you. It's not going to fit you. I have Steven from BQE. We're going to do a podcast on Saturday. Yeah, he's wonderful. He's fantastic. But what's really cool is I talked to him and he said, would you know that my dad was a physical therapist and he designed all these? Yeah. I never knew that. Yeah. So that's coming on the podcast. I'm like, that's, it's like you manufactured a perfect podcast for me. Yeah.

[00:24:48] Because I use, in my operatories, I now have his ergo dynamics that have the, it's really good for a microscope. Uh-huh. They've got the, they've got the armrest and stuff. It was a sweet chair, but I didn't realize the story behind it, like designed by a physical, a physical therapist. Yeah. How great is that? Yeah. And it's family owned. It is. He's got a great accent too. He does. I love him. Yeah. And you know what else is interesting? So his, his actual, you know, cause they're like a triangle. Yeah. Um, he has a back on his that, that actually will move. That's the dynamic. That's the one that I have. Yeah.

[00:25:18] It's the only lumbar support that I ever tell people. Like if you are really just, you know, hell bent on having yourself a lumbar support, that's the one that you want. But you can use that chair comfortably a little forward on it so it doesn't engage or you can adjust, it adjusts in about 20 different ways. Right. But yeah. And he's making a smaller one for, for small peanuts. Oh good. That's a good idea though. That makes sense. Because think about it. And I'm like, I don't know where all of the stools have the same size seats. Yeah. And I'm like, Steven. So the one that's in his booth right now is coming home with me on Saturday. I'm getting, I got this. Is there really? I'm getting a second one.

[00:25:47] I'm like, dude, I love this. And I have, I tried his backup, which was a different, I've tried multiple. I got a lot of chairs sitting around my office. Yeah. And I finally like, it took me a while. I'm like, okay, no, this is the one and I really like it. And so I'm like, I don't know another one. Do you think we could do the, yeah, bring it. So he brought it here. I'm going to throw it in my car and take it home with me. I love it. Oh yeah. You're drivable from here. Well, it was, it was, it was exciting this morning. I left about four o'clock in the morning and at about seven o'clock in the morning, I was on Southwest Michigan.

[00:26:16] It was like, it was like a blizzard. I thought it was in Colorado. It was crazy. I'm like, I, I driven in a lot of snow. I'm like, I might have to pull off and wait for this. But then I literally kind of come around the corner, get into Indiana. It's dry and clear. So it was fine. It was wild. It was pretty exciting. I'm like, I'm not sure I'm going to make it. So that was kind of exciting. But that's crazy. And you, I mean, you, you got bumped. Didn't you? Did you? My flight was late. Okay. We were delayed getting out. Okay. But there was just a medical emergency. Okay. It wasn't, it wasn't for the weather. Okay. No, no.

[00:26:44] It was just, I think somebody was afraid of flying and they started having an anxiety attack. So, you know how that goes. It's fine. You could do therapy for them too. Yeah. Cause I mean, you've got a lot of experience with that. Just sit down, be quiet. Yeah. That's right. They'll get you there. They'll get you there. They'll get you there. Go to bed, sweetheart. Well, so you're going to speak tomorrow. Why don't I will put all the links to all the stuff that you talk about in the show notes and I'll make sure that everyone gets your, the socials are probably worth following for this year. Like just try a couple of her stretches and you'll be convinced and you'll follow through. That's, that's what I think.

[00:27:14] So I'll put all that stuff. I'll put your Insta, your Facebook, all the groups and all this. She's got a Facebook group that you've been growing for quite some time now. So it's got a lot of good discussion in it. Um, no, that's cool. It's you, you put in the work. That's what I was saying. You know, whatever, six or seven years ago you put in the work. So now it's, now it's paying off, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It, you know, and I've always just tried to have good relationships with people and just give good information. Yeah. And I'm not trying to, I don't sell anything on there.

[00:27:40] I'm just giving information and, uh, you know, and there's no, it's not like a paid group. There's no advertisements in there. It's just good stuff. Yeah. Stretches, ergonomic stuff, strength training. Cause that's gotta happen too. Yeah. That's right. Pictures of Katrina with her, her stool, no matter where she's going with her chair. It's great. You always has it slung over her shoulder. Yeah. I actually do bicep curls with my saddle. No, right? Like, no, it's pretty good. So she's got, she's got a really good presence. If you're interested at all in ergonomics and even if you're not, cause you should be,

[00:28:10] uh, go to her socials and go, we'll, we'll put all the, we'll put the links to the crown and BQE. And, and I'm going to, tomorrow I'm going to find you again before you leave. Cause I have to show you, um, Innova brought my dream scope, which is funny. It's, it's actually the smaller, less fancy one than the one that I have in my office. It's the right size. I'll show it to you. I think you're going to, I can't wait to see it. Yeah. It's, it might be just the perfect of everything. So yeah, that's cool. I'll show it to you. I'll come find you when, when you're speaking in the morning, but you're on the floor in the afternoon.

[00:28:39] Yeah. I'm going to be in the, in the crown booth and the LumaDent booth and then I'll be over, I'll be all over. I'm here. I'll find you. I'll find you. Katrina. Always nice to talk to you. Thanks for being on. Thank you. Thank you.