Very Dental: Learning to Like Dentistry with Dr. Melissa Seibert

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[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a production of the Very Dental Podcast Network. This is the Very Dental Podcast.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Very Dental Podcast, where you'll find entertaining and relevant

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_00]: conversations with visionaries, clinicians, and your friends in the dental space. Now

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_00]: here's your host, Dr. Alan Mead.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Very dental people, welcome to another episode of the Very Dental Podcast. I'm

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_00]: your host, Dr. Alan Mead. I have a co-host today that you guys are really

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_00]: going to enjoy. She also is a podcaster. She runs a podcast that if

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_00]: you're not listening to you should, you probably already are. It's called

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: the Dental Digest Podcast. Joining me today, Dr. Melissa Seibert. Melissa,

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_00]: how you doing?

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I am so honored to get to be here with you. This is such a treat. Never

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_02]: would have thought that I would have this opportunity. You were really kind of

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_02]: one of the first people for just inspiration for what I do today. So

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_02]: thank you for having me.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: It's, we're going to dig into a little bit about what you do today

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_00]: because I have to tell you when I started the podcast, I started with

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Jason, we did the dental hacks way back in the day and in one of the

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_00]: things I wanted to, I didn't think I had the clinical chops to be like a

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_00]: podcast. We sort of went early on for let's be entertaining and we can try

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and try and be educational and sort of secondarily. And I think, I

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_00]: think it worked and I'm not probably the guy to be a very educational

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_00]: podcast. The Dental Digest Podcast is an educational podcast. You

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: somehow in podcasting is funny because as an audio medium, it's

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_00]: sometimes difficult for so much of dental stuff is visual. You do a

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: lot of the work. It's not an easy thing to do to make an audio podcast

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that delivers the information. I'm sure you've probably run into, I mean,

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I've seen your slides. Your slides are good and detailed and you don't

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: have those for an audio podcast. So it's an interesting thing to

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_00]: have to do.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_02]: You're way too kind. I think I'm just grateful for, I think all the

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_02]: people that are really stuck it out over the years because you're right.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: There are some times where maybe we're talking about a topic and you

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: have a conversation. You never really know like how's the clinical

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_02]: podcast going to land when it's launched?

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah. But I will say that one of the things that I noticed right

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_00]: off the bat was you take the audio quality seriously. You choose

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_00]: guests very selectively. Your guests are, I mean, she's got the top

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: notch guests. I always used to have, I thought I had bragging rights

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_00]: because I got a lot of the spear guys but you got a lot of the

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: spear guys too. So did the dental guys too. I mean, the spear guys go

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_00]: on a lot of podcasts. But I mean, you have really, items sometimes

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_00]: squeeze them for some clinical stuff, a lot of clinical stuff but

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: nothing like you did. Nothing like you do. You dive really deep.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you haven't listened to the Dental Digest podcast,

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_00]: understand it's a pretty serious deep dive on clinical issues.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll make sure I put a link in the show notes for people to

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_00]: try it out. Now how long have you been doing the Dental Digest?

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_02]: That is way too kind. You know, I started it before COVID went

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_02]: off. I know kind of in the COVID era, I think a lot of dentists

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of like dabbled in podcasting. I think this is

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_02]: something that you can really test too is when it comes to

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: podcasting, it's like picking up a guitar where, you know,

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_02]: basically anybody can pick it up but then keeping it going and

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_02]: getting good at it. That's what's hard. But I yeah,

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_02]: geez, this is crazy. Like it's gonna be five years coming

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_02]: up. But yeah, started it in let's think like right, right

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_02]: probably two months before COVID kicked off.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_00]: That's that's your timing is awful. Or terrific, maybe.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Timing terrific time. Actually, that's a good point. Because

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_00]: what else did people have to do but sit around and listen to

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_00]: podcasts and stuff? It's a

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_02]: well, not only that, but you just kind of you get an

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_02]: opportunity to like work out the kinks I think. Yeah. I

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_02]: think regardless, I would have worked out the kinks but that

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_02]: gave me an opportunity fair enough to do but you know

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: it got in my head a little bit because to me is my

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: perception at the time that the competition was super

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: fierce. Like, I don't know if you remember this, but it just

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_02]: felt like everybody and their brother decided that they

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_02]: wanted to start podcasting.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, what's funny about that is that, I mean, I started I

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_00]: started podcasting in 2014. So I've been doing for 10

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_00]: years. And the solution to the podcasting problem is just

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_00]: go back in time and start 10 years ago. Because because

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_00]: the competition isn't nearly as fierce back then, you

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_00]: know, it's one of the things where one of one of the

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_00]: secrets to my success was just being old and having done

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: it for a long time, right? Like there weren't very

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_00]: many there weren't very many choices back when we

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: started. So it was it wasn't as hard to build

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: the audience. I literally have started smaller podcast

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_00]: projects and I couldn't even gain my own audience

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_00]: on the smaller ones, right? Like I couldn't like so

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and only another podcaster can really appreciate this.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like first off, an audience is it's very

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_00]: difficult in the audio space to know what your

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_00]: audience is.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So difficult. Yes, can I just well you can relate to

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_02]: this? Yeah. Oh my gosh. So yeah, here's the thing

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: is that Apple podcasts and really Spotify as well

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: they're not search engines. It's not like Google or

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_02]: YouTube. So it's not like people are just going

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_02]: to magically find your podcast. There has to be

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_02]: some secret sauce to kind of building an audience.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And I have to tell you I the first probably 10

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_02]: episodes it was depressing like how people listen

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_02]: to it. And I mean of course it's going to be

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: right because like at that point I'm not even

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: like when you type dental podcasts on Apple I'm

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_02]: not even showing up in that list that they

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: offer you. Yeah, I don't honestly I don't even

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_00]: know if I am now and I've been doing this for

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: this long because I stopped. I hate Apple podcast

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_00]: so much. Me too. And I mean do you remember

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_00]: what happened last September? I hope you notice

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: this. I hope you noticed in September that

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_00]: basically I've bitched about this in the

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: podcast way too much. My listeners like shut up

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_00]: about it already but they gutted the way that

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_00]: they count episodes. So all of a sudden so all

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_00]: of a sudden I mean what I've been telling other

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_00]: people about what my listenership is like is

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: basically a bunch of friggin lies. I mean I

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_00]: who knows? I don't I make a point of not

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_00]: looking at downloads anymore because it just

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: it just makes me too depressed. I still enjoy

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_00]: doing it and I do get and you know the

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: story. The story is the most important

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_00]: thing for a podcaster is the engagement of

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_00]: people who are actually listening and I do get

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I get enough of that that I feel I feel like

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_00]: yes is worth doing. But if you look at the

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: numbers especially if you can compare these

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_00]: numbers to your numbers you know four years

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: ago or something like that because they're

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_00]: they're just being counted differently. It's

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_00]: like it's like a shot to the jaw. It's

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of bad. So I have a little beef with

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: the way podcasts are done but but I mean

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_00]: like I said it was good to be there early

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_00]: for me it was helpful. I mean that's there's

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_00]: some value in just having been there early

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_00]: it's good to I it's like you. You take the

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: sound quality seriously and that's important

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_00]: to me. I mean that's a little bit of a

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_00]: podcast knob thing but that's an easy way

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_00]: to lose an audience is to have your your

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_00]: podcast sound like a bad cell phone call.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean you also take your topics pretty

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: seriously too. So you clearly each episode

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_00]: of your podcast has to be thought out

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: quite a bit more than most of us most

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_00]: most of my stuff is conversations with

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_00]: people in the dental space so they don't

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_00]: have to be planned out super well most of

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_00]: the time. And how do you how do you do

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_00]: that I mean because you you will have a

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_00]: very specific topic that you want to

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_00]: cover and I feel like you come in

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_00]: knowing a lot already. So what how do

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_00]: you how do you plan your episodes and

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_00]: how do how do you get your guests.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Well you're way too kind for saying

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_02]: that the auto quality is good. You know

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: that is really nice coming from you

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_02]: because you do have top tier quality

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and I feel like if somebody could just

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_02]: see my home set up it is clearly not

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean you people can get kind of out

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_02]: of control with audio quality. I'll say

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_02]: this to going back to the whole

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: notion of back before covid or kind

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: of like the covid kickoff when

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_02]: everybody and their brother decide

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_02]: to have a podcast. You know you

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: would get these people that would

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_02]: just ball out on audio equipment

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and a set up and it's kind of

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_02]: ridiculous like to me my philosophy

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_02]: is I'm never going to get really

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_02]: serious gear until I've demonstrated to

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_02]: myself that I'm committed for this.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_02]: You know so I think I waited like

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: 30 or 40 episodes but anyway so

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: the question was kind of like the

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_02]: preparation involved. You know I have

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: to say that I am the biggest

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_02]: benefactor of these episodes so to

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_02]: me it's never it's never a time

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: suck it's never like I get that

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah just wasting time and I

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: mean I think like these are really

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_02]: high quality guests so I want to

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02]: demonstrate to them that I'm taking

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_02]: their time seriously like I'm really

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_02]: grateful for that and I mean it is

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: just such an opportunity to learn to

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: be honest with you. What are the

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_02]: things that I thoroughly enjoy is

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of like reading their articles

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_02]: beforehand reading just all their

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: material. I learned so much from it

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_02]: so I even actually started my own

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_02]: study club because I enjoy that

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah I enjoy it so much that

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like let's let's make this a

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_00]: thing. So tell me about that how

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_00]: did that how did that come about

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and what is it called and where

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_00]: can people see it if they want to

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_02]: check it out. You're too kind. This

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_02]: by the way this is not like

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: promotional thing at all but yeah

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_00]: so but yet you're here so go ahead

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and promote. Oh you're too kind. So

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_02]: it's called Journal Club and it's

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_02]: funny because I stole the name from

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_02]: my husband he has I guess with his

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: colleagues they actually have a thing

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_02]: called thinks and drinks and they

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_02]: also call it Journal Club and it's

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_02]: they actually get together and

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: discuss articles. This is kind of

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: like yeah going over what are the

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: hot contemporary topics in dentistry

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_02]: because I think so many people

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_02]: they're working really hard in the

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: salt mines out in dentistry and

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_02]: hard to be able to like have the

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_02]: luxury of picking up an article or

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_02]: reviewing something. So that's the

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_02]: intent behind it is once a month you

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_02]: get CE for it and reviewing like hey

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_02]: these are kind of hot things to be

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_02]: on your radar like you know if you

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_02]: go to a trade show IE Chicago

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_02]: midwinter a lot of the reps are

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_02]: going to be talking to you about

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_02]: this but this is what the clinical

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_02]: evidence actually has to say like

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_02]: this is not you know like hot

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_02]: contemporary and that's the other

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_02]: thing too is no this is this is the

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So not accepting any sponsorships

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: that way people can really feel like

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_02]: there is no agenda behind this.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So what's interesting is that for

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_00]: one thing and you can you can we I

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: do want to dig in a little bit to

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: your your education how you got to

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00]: where you are but it is

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting most dentists most

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_00]: clinical dentists in private

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_00]: practice and in the real world have

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_00]: literally first off in dental school

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_00]: they probably didn't get much of an

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: education on the literature how to

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_00]: read literature how to interpret

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: literature what it what it means

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: so so a lot of us if we actually

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_00]: quote unquote know the literature a

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: lot of it is just a we go on PubMed

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and we read an abstract and quote

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_00]: it like we know it because we

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_00]: didn't get that education but on

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_00]: top of that it's really hard to get

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: a hold of the actual articles like

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_00]: if you're just a guy and if

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_00]: you're just a guy with a practice

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_00]: who'd like to know it's like

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_00]: freaking near impossible how would

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_00]: you recommend if people wanted to

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_00]: actually like have access to the

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: articles so many don't to be honest

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I get it so many don't but let's

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_00]: say someone did you have access to

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_00]: them through your work and your

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_00]: research and all that stuff but how

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: would a regular person get a hold

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: of those things one of the things

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_02]: that I'm seeing is it okay well

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_02]: actually there's a few things to

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_02]: unpack though that's really

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_02]: important is like first of all if

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_02]: you have a question that you want

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: answers to I think it's really

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_02]: important that you're scrupulous

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and how you go about getting that

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_02]: because if you just do a generic

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_02]: PubMed search you're going to be

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: inundated and so let's let's unpack

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_02]: that for a second but the other thing

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: too is I think there's really we're

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: trending more toward things becoming

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_02]: a bit more open source and a bit

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: more accessible so I think that

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02]: that trend of there being a paywall

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that might go away that's

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean that would be huge if

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02]: that's real yeah yeah I think I

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_02]: think that is perhaps going away

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe it's just kind of like the

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_02]: academic zeitgeist of trying to

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_02]: make information more accessible

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe people feeling like it's not

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_02]: ethical to withhold information who

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_02]: knows but the other thing too is

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I think really just knowing that

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: there's a few really big good

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_02]: dental journals that are worth

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_02]: paying attention to you don't need

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: to like have subscription all of

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_02]: them but maybe maybe if you're

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_02]: really curious picking a few of

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_02]: them those are kind of the

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: things but I would say this as

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_02]: well so let's say someone is

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: trying to go get answers I think

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_02]: you can get inundated on PubMed

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and might go down the wrong

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: road so what else is first of all

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_02]: generally if you're trying to make

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: any decisions that are informing

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of your clinical practice you

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_02]: want to pay attention more so to

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_02]: well-designed prospective long

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_02]: term clinical data not so much

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: like laboratory studies are

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_02]: really helpful but that kind of

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_02]: just provides these pieces of the

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_02]: puzzle and I think people can

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_02]: start to form these whole

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_02]: philosophies around one single

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_02]: laboratory study and then they

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_02]: get kind of discouraged and

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_02]: confused because then they're

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_02]: like well wait a second but

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_02]: this other laboratory says this

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_02]: other thing and it's the

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: reality of what like laboratory

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_02]: data is you know you can kind of

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_02]: make the numbers you can kind of

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: get this sort of result that you

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_02]: want or you're looking for just

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_02]: by manipulating one or two things

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's why that's why I

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of you just want to be

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_02]: mindful and scrupulous when you

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_02]: use laboratory data but ultimately

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_02]: if you can have like a

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_02]: systematic review and meta

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_02]: analysis so kind of like an

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_02]: average or compilation of

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_02]: clinical data.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, compilation of many

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_00]: research. The other thing is I

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_00]: don't know if you've ever met

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: him but a guy by the name of

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Dr. John Cotemy who is he's

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_00]: an endodontist in Durango,

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Colorado.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_00]: He's a brilliant guy.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_00]: He's an amazing endodontist.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the endodontic

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of endodontists

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: they drive him crazy because he's

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of he's sort of a

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_00]: cantankerous he likes to point

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_00]: things out and one of the

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_00]: things that I learned from him

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: is that in so many cases

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_00]: the research or the studies are

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_00]: not actually measuring what they

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: think they're measuring.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Basically his point is that

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_00]: that research design

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: experimental design is very

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_00]: difficult.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_00]: It's it's it's really

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_00]: difficult to to actually

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: know that what you're

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_00]: measuring is what you're

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_00]: measuring.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I know it sounds a little silly

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_00]: but considering you have a

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_00]: background in research what do

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_00]: you when I say that what do

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_00]: you think about that?

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_02]: That statement.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. I think operator bias

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_02]: goes into it.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_02]: OK. Here's the thing.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of biases that

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_02]: can factor into this.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like yeah operator

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_02]: bias like I'm going to be

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_02]: really honest with you.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So there was this

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah study got it published

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_02]: like about a year ago and I

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_02]: looked at the effect of like

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_02]: immediate dent in ceiling on

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_02]: fracture strength with ceramic

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: overlay restorations.

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And at the time I was very

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_02]: pro immediate dent in

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: ceiling so I was really

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_02]: hoping that you know

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02]: immediate dent in ceiling

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: would improve the fracture

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_02]: strength.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And in fact it did not.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02]: But again that's just a

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_02]: laboratory study.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_02]: But the point is is a lot

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_02]: of times people really go into

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_02]: things with a bias.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So that might lead them to

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: manipulate things inadvertently

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: without even realizing it.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Like they do not realize that

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_02]: they're doing it but also

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_02]: there's industry funding for

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_02]: so many of these things.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And so you know if company

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: X is paying for a study like

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not necessarily going to

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_02]: get published if it makes

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_02]: them look bad or like great

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_02]: lengths might be taken to kind

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: of like demonstrate that their

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_02]: data is good.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So I would just say that

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah there's it's very

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_02]: difficult to design and isolate

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that they we think we are.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah some of that research

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_00]: that doesn't doesn't give the

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_00]: results that they were hoping

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_00]: for or someone was hoping for

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of that is it's like

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_00]: the fact that it doesn't get

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_00]: published is almost as

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_00]: important as the stuff that

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_00]: does get published like the

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_00]: desk drawer stuff that's

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_00]: like well this didn't turn out

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00]: quite like we'd hoped I think

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_00]: we're not going to put that

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_00]: out there.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's an and I got to

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: say that's a part of being a

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_00]: human being too.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like it's not that they're

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_00]: necessarily malicious about

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I suspect that no one goes

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: through the thought process of

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah I'm going to bury this.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just that they go in with

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_00]: with certain biases and a lot

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_00]: of times it's hard to know

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_00]: where your biases are.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I say this more as someone

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_00]: who's read a lot about of

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_00]: skepticism and bias and stuff

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_00]: like that. So I understand I

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: am not someone who has done

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_00]: the research hands on and

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_00]: frankly I expect that

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_00]: there's when you're deep into

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_00]: it it's much more difficult to

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_00]: see your biases I'm guessing

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that's the you know like you

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_00]: you kind of admitted that you

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_00]: were going into to research

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: with with a thought that you

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_00]: were hoping it would be like

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_00]: this and technically we're

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of not supposed to hope

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like that except why

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_00]: wouldn't you because that's

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_00]: that's the protocols you've

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_00]: been using in clinical.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So of course you kind of

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_00]: want to know that what

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_00]: you're doing is the right

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_00]: thing for your patients.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: It's it's you know it's part

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_00]: of being human I think.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and it's just super

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_02]: interesting there some of the

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_02]: reception that I got to the

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_02]: outcome like to be honest I

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_02]: think it was a very well

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: designed study and I think

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_02]: some people maybe got a

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_02]: little frustrated that I didn't

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_02]: get a certain outcome that

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_02]: they thought I should have

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_02]: gotten.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And it almost just reminded

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_02]: me a little bit of like

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_02]: perhaps I don't know like

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_02]: the Catholic Church and like

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_02]: the twelve hundreds fourteen

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_02]: hundreds or so.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean I'm sorry I know this

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: is being kind of

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: inflammatory but where

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_02]: basically like someone kind

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: of postulates something that

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_02]: goes against what they think

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_02]: it should be and it creates

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of upheaval.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry I'm probably going to

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_02]: get no no I get it for

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_02]: that comment.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_00]: What's funny though is that it

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_00]: is like there are a lot of

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_00]: expectations you know we as

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_00]: group we have we have these

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_00]: biases and expectations I

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_00]: totally get it.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know I think that's

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's important that

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_00]: you actually say that but I

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_00]: also think that I think

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: probably Dennis you know

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_00]: this and you're you're kind

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_00]: of in the middle of the

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: science so you may not might

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_00]: not even see it.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of a lot of

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_00]: us like you said out in the

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: salt mines just don't even

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_00]: care at all.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_00]: We're just easily we're

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_00]: we listen to whoever whatever

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_00]: rep brings us the best lunch

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and we'll try their bonding

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_00]: agent and all that.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So I I fear that like

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a little we need to

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_00]: be better than that but I

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_00]: also understand that that's

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe the the easiest path

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_00]: or the simplest path that

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_00]: doesn't you know I went to

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_00]: school for a long time.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't really want to be

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_00]: reading this stuff anymore

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of thing.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I can see both directions.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and I think I mean

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_02]: you know I think I say this

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot but dentistry is

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_02]: hard.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like I think I look at

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_02]: our colleagues in that kind

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_02]: of position and it's like

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_02]: you know they're probably

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_02]: not in that position

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_02]: because they're like a bad

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_02]: person.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: They're trying to cut

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_02]: corners.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it's that

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: at all.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's that I think

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_02]: they're there.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_02]: They're beat down.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_02]: They're worn out.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_02]: They're looking for

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_02]: something to invigorate them.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: They just haven't found

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_02]: that.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I think if I'm being

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_02]: really honest and I think

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_02]: you might agree with this.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I am so grateful that I

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_02]: happen to stumble on

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: something in dentistry that

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_02]: really invigorated me and

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I realized like I

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_02]: really enjoy education like

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_02]: that just makes my heart

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: so happy.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I will if I won

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: the lottery tomorrow and

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02]: didn't ever have to worry

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_02]: about money again a day in

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_02]: my life I'd probably still

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: be doing what I do because

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: it makes my heart happy

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm so well I'm

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_02]: really going on a

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_02]: unscripted diet time over

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02]: here.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Melissa takes the education

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_00]: stuff as an educator

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_00]: takes very seriously.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: She has she has a

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_00]: terrific Instagram fall.

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll put that up there

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_00]: as well.

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_00]: She has her photography is

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: really good.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_00]: She's really but she she

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_00]: takes this pretty

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_00]: seriously.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_00]: My question to you I want

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: you to give me the very the

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_00]: the the elevator pitch of

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_00]: how your educational

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: setup was really

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting to me.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_00]: You literally started out

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_00]: in the in the Air Force

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Academy and went to

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00]: dental school and kind

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_00]: of you've been you're

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: still in the Air Force

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: now so tell me just

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_00]: just this short version

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: of how you got where

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: you are.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Elevator pitch.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_02]: OK.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And here listen I'll say

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_02]: this of course a

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_02]: obligatory statement you

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_02]: know nothing that I'm

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_02]: saying is reflective or

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_02]: endorsed by the Air Force.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah I'm kind of

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_02]: weird.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I went to the Air Force

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Academy for undergrad.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And then from there

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_02]: got the HPSP scholarship.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So the Air Force

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_02]: paid for dental school

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and then I did a one

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: year AGG residency

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_02]: with the Air Force.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It was pretty phenomenal

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_02]: training and I think

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_02]: you kind of realize like

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_02]: whoa you know dental school

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_02]: does not prepare you

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_02]: for the real world.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if it ever

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_02]: fully did but it

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_02]: definitely doesn't now.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey very clinical listeners

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[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: to your practice,

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_00]: a procedure your patients want.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Go to 3ddentists.com

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and reserve your spot today.

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_00]: That's www.3ddentist.com

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think additional training

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_02]: is really critical.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll stop you

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: for just one second.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So my dad graduated

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_00]: from the University of Detroit,

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Mercy in 1968.

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_00]: He's a dentist

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and he's retired now.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And when they talk

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_00]: about the clinical requirements

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_00]: they had in dental school,

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_00]: it is phenomenal.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I honestly, this is

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_00]: completely anecdotal.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I do think,

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I think back in the day

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_00]: you got a lot more

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: just clinical chops

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_00]: in dental school.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I think you might have

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_00]: known more about how to do stuff.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, there was a lot less to do.

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Imagine they weren't doing

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of posterior composites.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_00]: if they're doing anterior

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_00]: composites at that point.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So they had

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_00]: they had a lot less options.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot less

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_00]: they needed to know.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But man, oh man, did that guy

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_00]: do a lot of extractions

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and a lot of amalgams

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and a lot like in there.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_00]: They had patients lined up

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: out the door.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think they can say

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_00]: the same about our

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_00]: clinical training now,

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_00]: but that is a complete aside.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to set you off.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: The bottom line is

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_00]: you're in the Air Force

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and you're going into this AGD.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to get you

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: back on track there.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_02]: No, but hey,

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that you bring up

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: a great point because I think

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_02]: we really want to point the finger

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_02]: at dental schools.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And the reality is, is,

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, there's just so much

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that people have to know these days.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so much.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_02]: The all the materials,

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_02]: all the procedures,

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_02]: all the capabilities,

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_02]: all the different workflows.

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a lot.

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_02]: There's no conceivable way

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_02]: it can be taught

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_02]: in a four year education.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't care

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_02]: if it's the best

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_02]: dental school.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, so did they

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I did that one year AGD

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_02]: then I had to practice

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_02]: to kind of the opportunity

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_02]: to kind of practice

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_02]: in very small town Texas,

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_02]: which that was very beneficial.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I got a lot of reps in

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and then I did a this is

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_02]: this is odd,

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's basically

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_02]: a two year residency

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_02]: to become a super dentist.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You really do it all,

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_02]: which is, you know,

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_02]: you and I were talking

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_02]: about the virtues

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_02]: of being a super dentist,

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of the good and the bad.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll say

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_02]: it's hard like it kind of can be

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_02]: very emotionally taxing almost

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_02]: because it's like every patient

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_02]: you are running

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_02]: a million miles an hour.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_02]: you're just constantly

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of comparing yourself

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_02]: to your specialist colleagues.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It's I think the whole

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_02]: super dentist thing, that's

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah, there's some challenges.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a lot.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a lot.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I think some people

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_00]: some people are probably

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: particularly good at that.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Some people really, you know,

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_00]: some people are able to focus

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_00]: on the stuff they really like.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, it can go

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: both ways, to be sure.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I think so.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I think, you know, it's funny

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_02]: because I think it just depends

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_02]: on the given day.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think, you know what?

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I think like you're

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_02]: you're a dear friend,

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, like you're somebody

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_02]: that I I love talking to.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I try to talk to you

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_02]: every chance I get.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And I can be really honest

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_02]: with you.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think right now

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just being honest about

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_02]: the trials and tribulations

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_02]: of trying to practice

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_02]: comprehensive dentistry.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not a bed of roses.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_02]: No professionals.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not. It's not.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we could talk

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: about a lot of different stuff

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_00]: there for sure.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe for another podcast.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So I so you're you got

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_00]: you have an oral biology masters.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_00]: This was the thing that

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and that was that was done

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_00]: on that two year

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_00]: two year educational thing.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_00]: What I'm curious is

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_00]: how did you become

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_00]: the Melissa that I know now

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_00]: in the midst of this?

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Because you graduated

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_00]: from dental school in twenty

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_00]: eighteen, which means

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_00]: you started the podcast

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_00]: just to probably a couple

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_00]: years out of school, essentially.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So you kind of knew

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_00]: you were going to be an educator

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_00]: pretty early on, it sounds like.

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's funny.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, when you said

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_02]: that what the masters is

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: turned around and verified,

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_02]: like, yes, that is a masters

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_02]: in oral biology.

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to make sure

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't mislead you.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You know what?

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It's funny because I think

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_02]: it was this whole sort of endeavor

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_02]: was kind of came

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_02]: from an unlikely source.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I think first of all,

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_02]: when I graduated dental school,

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I did not care for dentistry.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was I think very,

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, I think my dental school

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_02]: training maybe did not

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_02]: set me up for success.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So when I say more about that,

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: say more about that.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: You said you didn't care

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_00]: for dentistry.

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Tell me about that.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, OK, here's what I think it is.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it came from a place of,

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, dentistry is not fun

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_02]: when you don't know what's going on,

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: like when you are overwhelmed

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_02]: by all the things

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_02]: that you don't even know.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And so when I kind of started this

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_02]: AGD, I kind of got rocked,

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_02]: like as I should,

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_02]: because it was just

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_02]: there's just such a big discrepancy

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_02]: between the skill set

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_02]: that I came into this training with

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and what I needed to graduate with.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that created a lot of upheaval

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_02]: that made dentistry

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_02]: not a lot of fun.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I got to tell you, the people

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_00]: the people that because

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: because I think everyone know

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of people don't admit it.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd say most people don't admit it.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_00]: But you're right.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_00]: When you get out of dental school,

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_00]: if you if you aren't rocked

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_00]: by what you actually need to know,

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, man.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure what it was like.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm always just impressed

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_00]: that that people don't do

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_00]: what I did, which was like

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_00]: get hooked on drugs

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and like abuse myself

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_00]: because because it was it was a lot.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I can perfectly say

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_00]: that dental school was was

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_00]: abusive to me.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I did.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I had a rough time with dental school,

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_00]: but like my coping mechanisms

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_00]: were not good.

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're right.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00]: There is so much to know.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And when I got out of dental school,

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I would I bought a practice

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_00]: early on didn't know what

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I know I was doing.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know anything

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_00]: at all that I was doing.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean,

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_00]: so I was overwhelmed constantly.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, so my habits

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_00]: were bad that way.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm always impressed

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_00]: when people don't have

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_00]: horrible habits like that.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's it's refreshing to hear

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_00]: that like you hit the AGD

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and you were completely rocked by it.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of love knowing that

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_00]: because at least it makes me feel

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_00]: like I'm not the only one

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_00]: who was pretty old when I got out

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_00]: of dental school.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_02]: You are not the only one.

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I really love people

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_02]: that are very authentic

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and vulnerable.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And I can tell.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's you.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Like and I love that

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_02]: you're very honest

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_02]: about your struggles

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: because you are obviously

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_02]: not the only one

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_02]: that has had that struggle.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_02]: You're just the only one

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: that's really not the only one.

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's me talking

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_00]: about talking about is important,

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's also, you know,

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_00]: 22 years on,

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a little easier

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_00]: to talk about than it was

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_00]: when it was like a year

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_00]: on or whatever.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like I mean,

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't I didn't come out

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and talk about my story

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_00]: right off the bat.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But I've talked about it

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00]: so much on the podcast

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and I've spoken about it.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, it was a long time ago

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_00]: that I was having those

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_00]: particular problems.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But what's interesting

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_00]: is that I think

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_00]: it's it's funny

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_00]: because I got to tell you,

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Melissa, with it from when I'm

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_00]: when I look at Instagram,

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_00]: when I look at

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I talked to young Dennis, man.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: They come out

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and it seems to me like

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_00]: these people just freaking

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_00]: they are so confident

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and so comfortable.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm thinking of myself,

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know anyone

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_00]: who was really like that

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_00]: when we first got out

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_00]: of dental school.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think social media

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of first off, there's a

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's a lot

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_00]: of information out there,

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_00]: whether it's podcast videos,

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_00]: social media,

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, Facebook groups,

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_00]: that sort of thing,

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_00]: where you can learn

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of things

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00]: that you need to know

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_00]: that those are resources

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_00]: that weren't really out there

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_00]: when I was there.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's one thing.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, so these

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: these younger people

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_00]: probably do know a lot more

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_00]: or have access to that

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_00]: if they want to.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But the other thing is

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_00]: they come in, they come out

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: with so I mean,

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't believe they're not

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: super overwhelmed.

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_00]: if they're putting on a show

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: or if they're really got it

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_00]: figured out or what.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's it's a lot.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember coming out

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_00]: of dental school and being

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_00]: what what in the world

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_00]: what has hit me?

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was I it was rough.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember that.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_02]: No, you know,

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_02]: what I think it is,

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_02]: is that I hate to say it.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I hate to say this so much.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_02]: But you know how there's

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of the phenomenon

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_02]: where you know so little

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: that you can't even really grasp

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: how much you don't know.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So you think you're invincible.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it is

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of that phenomenon.

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that or a fear of

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_02]: you don't want to come off as

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_02]: you don't want to come off dumb.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So you kind of hide it.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I do not think.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm saying this

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_02]: not to like

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_02]: necessarily lament

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_02]: like what's going on

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_02]: in the profession.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_02]: That's not at all.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It's more so like

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I just want people to feel

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_02]: like it's natural

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're not alone,

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_02]: that they are feeling this way

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_02]: when they graduate.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, so here I'm going to give an example.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_00]: This is completely off the cuff,

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's a perfect example in my brain.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_00]: What I do when I am matrixing

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_00]: matrixing posterior composites right now,

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_00]: the the the lengths

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_00]: that I go to for isolation and ideal,

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I like trying in different matrices

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and getting my wedge just right

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and doing all the things that I

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_00]: in being able to visually know

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_00]: that that's that's what it's like.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't I don't take the next step

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_00]: until I'm happy with the step behind it.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: For the most part, that's how

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and I just remember

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_00]: when I first got out of dental school,

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, I didn't know

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_00]: to take that kind of care

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_00]: with with matrixing

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and I didn't have

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of different options.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I had like one or two options

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's what I use

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_00]: because that's what I had.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't I didn't realize

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_00]: like it's it's an exact

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_00]: perfect example of just not even

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_00]: knowing what you don't know.

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Like if I could go back in time

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and show my my brand new dentist self,

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_00]: what what I'm doing

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: just to matrix a posterior composite,

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I would I would be

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_00]: my mind would be blown

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_00]: with all the detail

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_00]: that I just wasn't paying attention to

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_00]: because I just didn't know,

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, and in some of this stuff,

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I only know because, oh, I was

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I went on dental town

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and people posted photos or, you know,

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I've gone to courses

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and stuff like this.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like you don't know it,

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's like experience takes time

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_00]: and it takes a lot of work

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's really hard to rush,

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I think on some level.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, 100 percent.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I do think

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_02]: that is perhaps the virtue of Instagram

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and maybe why I actually really like it

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_02]: is because you get to see examples

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_02]: of what good can really look like.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, which I actually think

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_02]: is incredibly healthy.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, of course,

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_02]: like you want to make sure

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_02]: certainly there are people out there

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_02]: that Photoshop things

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and certainly like you have to realize

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_02]: that people are only going to post

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_02]: really their good cases.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_02]: 100 percent.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't always see things off the rails.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And also, also you have to know

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_00]: you have to know that

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_00]: you might not be able to.

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, there's the the heavy duty

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_00]: photography people with

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_00]: with the soft boxes

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and all this stuff.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You know what?

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate what they're doing.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have the time to do all that.

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_00]: The reality is, is like sometimes

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_00]: just the documentation on its own

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_00]: takes so long.

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But I can be grateful

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and appreciate the fact

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that there are some people out there

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_00]: that do take that time

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and I know more because of them.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Like because there

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_00]: there's no way I can take that time

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_00]: because I'm I'm

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm on a schedule on some level.

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_00]: As much I love that

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and I would love to be able to do that.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm for I'm not even

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_00]: patient enough to do that.

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_00]: My God, what I know

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_00]: what it takes to do that.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And I know that I won't do it.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I know that it's more

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_00]: than I'm going to do.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm glad they do it.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I really am.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad they'll do it.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But I also don't have to hold myself

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_00]: to some kind of standard

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_00]: that that's beyond what I'm going to

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, that I'm going to mentally

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_00]: invest in that too.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there's

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_02]: there's a balance there, too.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's also like,

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, you have to be careful

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_02]: patient perception as well.

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Like you want patients

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to know that you're trying to

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_02]: do the best care for them,

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_02]: but in a very timely manner.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Like you don't want them

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_02]: think that you're just

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: dinking around with photos.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I take a lot of photos,

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_02]: but I've gotten quite fast

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02]: because I take so much of it.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But there's a balance there.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_00]: 100 percent.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I will say your photography

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_00]: is spectacular and I like it.

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_00]: But but the other thing

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_00]: that your photography is not is

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_00]: it doesn't look like

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: you're trying too hard.

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I know it sounds awful,

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_00]: but like, I mean,

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_00]: your Arbor Dam's are prettier

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_00]: than mine.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But but on some level,

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I can appreciate that.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And frankly, just being

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: in the habit of having

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_00]: that DSLR close by

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_00]: is probably a great thing

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_00]: for everyone to do.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I tell myself, I'm like,

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I should just do

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_00]: a little bit more than I do.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_00]: But the reality is

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad there are people

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_00]: who do that.

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad there are people

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_00]: there are people

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_00]: who take the time to do that.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty great.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_02]: 100 percent.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So you ended up

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_00]: you ended up in your

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_00]: you did advanced training

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_00]: in the Air Force.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_00]: You're still in the Air Force

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_00]: now. You started a podcast,

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_00]: knowing that I'm assuming

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_00]: that by the time

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_00]: you start the podcast,

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_00]: you knew you wanted to share

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_00]: with people and, you know,

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_00]: be an educator.

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, when did

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_00]: lecturing start happening?

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_00]: When did all this go?

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You lecture all over

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_00]: the place and you

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you do your Instagram,

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_00]: you do the podcast,

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_00]: you do lots of teaching.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_00]: When did that all start

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and how did you know

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00]: that was going to be your thing?

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I guess I kind of started,

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_02]: geez, like three

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and a half to four years ago.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know,

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's because

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_02]: it's something I really enjoy.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think this all goes back

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_02]: to like figuring out

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_02]: what it is about the profession

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_02]: that you like and really

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_02]: running in that direction.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess I kind of,

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, there's certain things

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_02]: that we do in dentistry

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_02]: where we really try to go

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that extra mile for the patient.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_02]: You're talking about,

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_02]: like, just working so hard

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_02]: to, like, have the correct

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_02]: matrix set at, etc.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And you feel like

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: the patients don't really

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_02]: they're never going to really

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_02]: appreciate or necessarily

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_02]: understand it.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they're

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_02]: they're going to like

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: just know if you hurt them,

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_02]: they like you,

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_02]: all this kind of things.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I guess for me,

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_02]: it gave me a reason,

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_02]: which sounds really bad.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like I wouldn't be doing

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_00]: no, I know,

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_00]: but I get where you're going.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Finish what you're going to say.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I know.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It gave me a reason to like

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_02]: really want to go

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_02]: that extra mile and try to like

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_02]: try to be the best dentist

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I could be.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm I'm weird the way I'm wired.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I have to have a reason why.

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_02]: If I do not have a reason why,

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I will probably not do it,

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_02]: which is good and bad.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure, but I'm not one of those people

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_02]: like you know how

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_02]: there's always those rule

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_02]: followers out there.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: My husband, I love him so much.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_02]: He's one of them.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Like there's a rule

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and he's like, no,

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_02]: but we just we have to do this.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like he like this is the rule.

[00:35:37] Mm hmm.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_00]: That's it.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes, yeah, that's

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_00]: my son has autism.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_00]: He is the ultimate rule follower.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_00]: It's pretty amazing.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And I laugh because I'm like,

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah, I can see where

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_00]: having the rules

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and just knowing

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_00]: you're going to follow the rules

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_00]: is a pretty great,

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_00]: pretty great place to be on some level.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_00]: But sometimes it's like

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate what you're saying.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_00]: One of the reasons that you do

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_00]: what you do is because

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_00]: not only are you doing it

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_00]: because you want

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_00]: excellent patient care and stuff,

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_00]: but you're also like

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I will be able to use this to

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_00]: as an example in my teaching

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_00]: or I'll be able

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_00]: you'll be able to use this for

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_00]: for different different.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_00]: It's more than just

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_00]: excellent patient care

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_00]: that you're giving basically.

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Is what you're saying.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that and always

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_02]: it kind of gives me a reason

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_02]: to just constantly

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_02]: be continually growing.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I know this saying is so trite

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's almost like

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_02]: for lots of its meaning,

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_02]: but there is that notion out there

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that if you're not growing,

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_02]: you're dying.

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And I wholeheartedly think this.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_02]: But I just think that,

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_02]: man, like if you don't

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_02]: find a way to get out

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_02]: of the salt mines dentistry

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and you're just doing

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_02]: grinding out dentistry all day long,

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not very fulfilling.

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's I mean, that is

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_00]: various times of my career.

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been burnt out

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's when it is.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_00]: You just sort of like feel

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_00]: like it's just a slog, you know?

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, and I think it gets that way

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_00]: even for even for people

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_00]: who really have a purpose.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But but I like the fact

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that you're basically talking

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_00]: about finding a purpose

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and and you know,

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_00]: finding a purpose

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_00]: within the profession.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And frankly, that you said

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_00]: when you got out of dental school,

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, it didn't really ring

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00]: your bell right off the bat.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_00]: That's that's pretty interesting

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and kind of important

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_00]: for people to hear, I think.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let me ask.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_02]: OK, let me ask you a question

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_02]: being put on the spot.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_02]: OK, the term burnout,

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, what does that mean to you?

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Because that's again,

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_02]: one of those terms that just it's

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_02]: really it's in this like guys

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_02]: right now.

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It's getting thrown around a lot.

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's different ways

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_02]: to look at burnout.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So what does burnout mean to you?

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So burnout, it is overused.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure there's

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_00]: a standard definition.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_00]: What I think of as burnout is when

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, typically for me,

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_00]: when I'm feeling burnt out,

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_00]: it's the way I fix it

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_00]: is something new,

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_00]: whether that is a break.

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes vacation

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_00]: can kind of help burnout.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I just when it when it feels like

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not reasonable to think

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that you're going to go

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_00]: into work every day

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_00]: for your life, your whole life,

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and then it's going to be

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_00]: fulfilling and wonderful

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_00]: all the time.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think a lot of times

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_00]: work is can be pretty fun.

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I've you know,

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't worked

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of other jobs.

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I've worked a few

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and they're definitely

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_00]: it's better to be a dentist

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_00]: than a lot of jobs.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's pretty good gig.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's not

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not hard labor so much.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah, managing a staff

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_00]: can be tough

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_00]: if you're in a private

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_00]: practice situation,

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_00]: managing patients can be tough,

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's pretty fulfilling

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_00]: for the most part.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_00]: But there are times

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_00]: when you'll get in a

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: get in a streak

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: where you're just really

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_00]: not feeling it.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's kind of what

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean with burnout.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And I have to say,

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that a lot of times

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_00]: just having something new

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_00]: in there will do it,

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_00]: whether that's a, you know,

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_00]: honestly, it's as dumb

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_00]: as like a new procedure

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_00]: or a new material

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_00]: or something like sometimes

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_00]: you just need to spice it up

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_00]: a little bit and then.

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_00]: But I look at burnout

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: as a short term thing

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_00]: that you can kind of look at

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and try and make it.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think a lot of people

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_00]: are like, I've been

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_00]: burned out for years

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and like, well, you know,

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I know I know people

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_00]: who feel like they

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that dentistry was

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_00]: the wrong choice for them

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_00]: as a profession

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_00]: because they're

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_00]: they're just tired of it.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But I just feel like

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_00]: there's so much

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_00]: that you can do in dentistry

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_00]: to kind of make it different

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_00]: if you wanted to shoot.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_00]: The reality is, is like

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_00]: if you if you're so burnout,

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_00]: if I were so burnt out

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_00]: from what I was doing

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_00]: in my private practice,

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I could always go back

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and specialize in something,

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_00]: not necessarily go back

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_00]: to school for specialty,

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_00]: but just decide

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to do X

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_00]: or I'm just going

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to do

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_00]: the stuff that I like

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_00]: or whatever.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_00]: There's so I don't

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not a great description.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I think sometimes burnout is

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_00]: different.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_00]: People probably experience

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_00]: it differently.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And I hear a lot

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_00]: about burnout now.

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I hear a lot about people

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_00]: are just tired of it,

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe because

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I think after Covid,

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_00]: staffing has been a pain.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Overhead has gone up.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And let's be honest,

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_00]: or the bottom line,

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_00]: you know what you what

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_00]: we're taking down,

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_00]: what we're taking home

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_00]: has gone down

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_00]: unless we've really cranked it out.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I make less now

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_00]: than I did before Covid

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_00]: because my overhead is way

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_00]: way up from that.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You know that that hurts.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, getting paid

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_00]: well for it helps.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean,

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_00]: what do you think about burnout?

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I really like

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_02]: what you said,

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's what I've always

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of been trying to decipher

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_02]: is like is burnout

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_02]: a transient situation

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_02]: or is this sort of like

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: a chronic problem

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_02]: that can't be resolved?

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And I OK, listen,

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I think for me it's like

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_02]: the educational aspect.

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that helps

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_02]: to stave out burnout.

[00:40:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. And you know,

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you bring up

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_02]: an excellent point.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think, yeah,

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_02]: if someone's saying things

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_02]: like, you know,

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I've been burnt out

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_02]: for years, then

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_02]: that might be indicative

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_02]: of a deeper issue.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_00]: That is, yeah.

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I will say this.

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It's really funny.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I think podcasting

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_00]: had had helped me

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_00]: with burnout at some level,

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_00]: because especially

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_00]: in the beginning when I didn't,

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_00]: you know,

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know how to say it

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_00]: other than the fact that

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know what I was doing.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's kind of fun

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_00]: to try something new and exciting.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But also podcasting,

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_00]: as you probably noticed,

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_00]: has put me in contact

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_00]: with a bunch of people

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_00]: that I never would have had

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_00]: a chance to talk to.

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's it.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And so like

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_00]: when I go to the Chicago Midwinter,

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been going to

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_00]: the Chicago Midwinter meeting forever.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, my dad took

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_00]: a bunch of my friends and I

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_00]: to the Midwinter

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and we were down school at Minnesota.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_00]: We all drove down from Minneapolis

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_00]: for the Chicago meeting

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and my dad put us up like that's

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been involved

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_00]: with the Chicago Midwinter forever.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And it always was a really fun

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_00]: is a hot mess early on in my career

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_00]: because I was I was not

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_00]: in great headspace.

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course,

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_00]: the Internet wasn't what it is now.

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And so everything you saw

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_00]: on the floor of the Chicago

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Midwinter is new

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and shiny and spectacular.

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_00]: You didn't you hadn't

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_00]: seen anything on the Internet.

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_00]: You hadn't seen ads for it.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So it was always like,

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, I'd come home

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_00]: from the Midwinter having bought

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_00]: a bunch of crap.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't remember what I was buying.

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_00]: There's so much.

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, now the Midwinter for me

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_00]: is a chance to

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_00]: God last you should go.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_00]: It's so fun.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Last year we had they have

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_00]: a podcasters booth

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_00]: where you can just go set up your gear.

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a little bit quieter

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_00]: than the rest of the but

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_00]: but basically you go out on the floor,

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_00]: you find people you want to podcast

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_00]: with you, drag them back there

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and you put I could do that for days.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_00]: It was so fun,

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_00]: like running into random people

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and say, we got a podcast

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and we said it said all is great.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, honestly,

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_00]: it's the most fun

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I've had podcasting in years.

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It was kind of like

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_00]: how voice the dentistry was

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_00]: where you just had

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_00]: just tons of people

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_00]: who were down to talk and all that.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So the Midwinter had that

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and I wish that other big

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_00]: meetings would do it.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I tried to talk to the

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: greater New York people.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_00]: They're not doing anything

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_00]: like that now that they know of.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess the ADA does it too

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_00]: on some level,

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_00]: but the Chicago thing was nice

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_00]: because there was no stage or anything.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't like you were featured.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_00]: It was just a little quiet space

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_00]: off to the side where

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_00]: it and people used it to people use it.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I got some of the best content there.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And I got to tell you

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_00]: that is the antidote

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_00]: to burnout for me.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I was so fired up.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I had I mean,

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been enjoying

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_00]: the Midwinter forever

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'd never experienced

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_00]: a Midwinter like the last one.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It was so fun

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and I didn't see that much stuff

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_00]: because I was too busy

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_00]: running into people in podcasting.

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_00]: This is so good.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So like that definitely does it for me.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Like being able to do

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_00]: that kind of stuff

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_00]: is pretty exciting to me.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_00]: That's I mean,

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_00]: that's the kind of thing

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that is like the anti

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_00]: burnout solution for me.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_02]: You know what I will say

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_02]: that does not might

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_02]: go it makes sense to me.

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm shifting gears

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02]: a little bit here.

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So I yeah,

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I really love the idea of

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_02]: at this meeting,

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_02]: you can kind of go

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_02]: grab people and podcast.

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But what I don't really get

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_02]: is when meetings will want

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_02]: to have a podcaster out there

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and nobody can really hear

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_02]: the conversations that are going on.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't really know

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_02]: what it accomplishes.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Like they want to feature

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_00]: the podcaster as like a DJ

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: at the meeting or something like

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_00]: that's not really what we do anyhow.

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it doesn't make sense.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_00]: We typically are.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_00]: What's fun

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_00]: is to put headphones on

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_00]: in a loud room and the headphones

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_00]: make it feel like you're

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_00]: in your own private little room.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you did it at Voices of Dentistry.

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a bunch of people

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_00]: like it was fun

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_00]: because there was a lot going on,

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_00]: but you could have

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_00]: your own little conversation

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_00]: amongst yourself

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_00]: with the other person.

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_00]: That's that was fun.

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I do think I and

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you experience

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't remember

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_00]: if you did or not.

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I had people that went to the ADA

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and said it was not quite

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_00]: what you would have hoped

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_00]: because there was a stage and stuff.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Isn't quite as easy to podcast.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean,

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_00]: we've made some pretty

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_00]: cool podcast content

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_00]: in front of an audience

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_00]: at Voices of Dentistry,

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_00]: but it was a that audience

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_00]: was geared to podcasts too, though.

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not I'm not sure

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_00]: that they've got

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_00]: that figured out quite yet.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_00]: They I mean, I know

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_00]: they're still doing it.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_00]: They're doing it again next month.

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a podcast or corner.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not planning on going, but

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_00]: but I've heard that they're doing it.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they'll get it.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to the ADA either.

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I just I'm going to be really honest.

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I think time is such a precious

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_02]: resource and commodity.

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So there needs to be a really good

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_02]: reason to go.

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I went to Spear Summit

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_02]: in live podcast there,

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and that was actually that was great.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Like really, there are people there

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_02]: that I wanted to podcast with.

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_02]: That was worthwhile.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think sometimes some of these

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_02]: like kind of meetings

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_02]: that one podcasters come

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and the compensation is not good.

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_02]: That's time away from family.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Like just it doesn't make sense.

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the summit is a good place

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_00]: to do it because you got first off.

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things I enjoyed

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_00]: about the summit when I was there

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_00]: is that they pretty much put us

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_00]: on the on the exit from when people

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_00]: jump jump off the stage.

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_00]: They got all these wild

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and crazy people on that.

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, that Greg gets to come

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and speak and then they throw them

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_00]: in the booth with me.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It was really, it was really cool.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I got to talk to a lot of people

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_00]: that were kind of not expecting.

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_00]: The other thing is with podcasts,

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_00]: they expect that you're

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_00]: going to give them hard balls

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's fun to just have

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_00]: a conversation of softballs.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I think Spear Summit is an exceptional

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_00]: place to do it, too.

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of places

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that probably aren't so much.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_00]: The other thing is it's travel.

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, before we go,

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_00]: we should at least tell you

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_00]: you are a relatively new mom.

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So and that's I mean,

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and so you got a lot going on.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and by the way,

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_00]: you have a baby.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So how is that?

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_00]: How has that affected

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_00]: everything we've talked about?

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_02]: You know what I think that has

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah, there's a lot to unpack there.

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that that has kind of

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_02]: made me get a lot more clear

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_02]: about what my priorities are.

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I think before she was born,

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_02]: my attitude was like,

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to hustle my ass off.

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to take all the opportunities.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going everywhere.

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm doing everything.

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm getting it.

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to make this happen.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I remember that.

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to burn myself out.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know,

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_02]: invariably whether she was born or not,

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_02]: that's not going to

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_02]: that wasn't going to work forever.

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think that definitely

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_02]: like got me clear on my priorities.

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, she is the best thing

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_02]: that has ever happened to me,

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_02]: but it can be exhausting.

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And I would be really honest,

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_02]: like right now I'm going through

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_02]: a bit of a season of exhaustion.

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I get it.

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember those days.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_00]: How is she?

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_00]: How old is she?

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, she's so cute.

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_00]: She's eight months.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Eight months.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, so so is sleep?

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Is she got a sleep schedule down or not really?

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, actually, when it comes to sleep,

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_02]: she's doing pretty good.

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_02]: She's pretty good about

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_02]: sleeping through the night now.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. To be honest with you,

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_02]: like the sleep with her,

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_02]: that was never a huge issue.

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So we are very lucky in that regard.

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_02]: It's so good.

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_00]: That's so good.

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know what?

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_00]: We've got we got tons of stuff

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_00]: we never even got to today.

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll do it again real soon.

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And man, do I appreciate you coming on.

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_00]: This was really good.

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Everyone, if you haven't

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_00]: if you haven't had a chance to listen,

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_00]: you got to go to the Dental Digest podcast again.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll have I'll have all the stuff in the show notes.

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Her Instagram, her journal club.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's kind of exciting, too.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So we'll have to check all that stuff out.

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So you're doing some amazing things.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_00]: We really appreciate you being out there

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and I appreciate you being on.

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Alan, you are the best.

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much.

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, we'll talk to you again very soon.

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Awesome. Thank you.

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.