Very Dental: Losing My Practice and Saving My Life with Dr. Tiffany Paiva

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[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_00] This is a production of the Very Dental Podcast Network. This is the Very Dental Podcast.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_01] Welcome to the Very Dental Podcast, where you'll find entertaining and relevant conversations with visionaries, clinicians, and your friends in the dental space. Now, here's your host, Dr. Alan Mead. Very Dental people, welcome to another episode of the Very Dental Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Alan Mead, coming to you again from my porch. I don't know how much video will be out here, but when it's July and August and the weather allows it, I record from my porch.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_01] And so you may hear wind chimes in the background. You may hear ducks in the background. And that's the price I pay for my summer studio out here on my front porch. Joining me, a friend of mine, I've known her for a while. I don't think we've met face-to-face in person before, but I've known her for actually quite a while. We'll talk a little bit about that. Dr. Tiffany Paiva. Tiffany, how are you doing?

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_04] I'm doing great. Thank you for having me. I am so excited to finally get to see your face and talk to you.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So Tiffany, and Tiffany has, I have ducks. She has a dog. No worries, man. It's all, it's a family show. What can I say? So I knew, I met Tiffany, God, I mean, like, it's got to be, like you said, around nine years ago. Nine years ago. Tiffany's a dentist, but she's not working anymore. We're going to get to that. But at the time I met her, you had a practice of your own. Is that right? When we met?

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_04] Not yet. Not yet, okay.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_01] You bought the practice, okay. But you were a practicing dentist.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_04] Yep.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_01] And I don't know, how did you find out about me?

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_04] So I had been listening to your podcast for years, and I had heard you talk about your recovery very openly. And while I was in dental school, actually, I broke my shoulder. I was learning how to dirt bike.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_01] I remember this. I remember this. Yep, yep, yep. I remember this. Okay.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_04] Broke my shoulder. I had, you know, I had to go through surgery to reconstruct my shoulder. Oh, my God. And they gave me.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_01] In dental school, you had to do this?

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Oh, God. It was crazy. Yep. And they gave me unlimited amounts of Percocet.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, geez.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_04] And I couldn't get off of them. I, you know, very, very functioning addict for many, many, many years. And it finally started getting to the point where I was no longer functioning very well. Sure, sure. You know, it was starting to bleed into other areas of my life. And it just kind of got. I messaged you.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_04] So one night, I was sitting there with my phone waiting for my dealer to message me. I had, I was out of pills. And, you know, as an addict, that is the most panicky position to be in. Oh, it's the worst.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_01] It's the worst. And I was, I was out a lot. Just, you know, like I was, it was one of those things for me. I was, I used it so fast that I was out all the time. So like, I didn't have a dealer. I bought this stuff. I bought this stuff with my DEA because I had to practice. But the reality is I know that the panic was real. And like, you never really knew where you're, when you were using as much as I was, you

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01] never quite knew where your next, your next, you know, handful of pills were coming from. So I totally get that. Interestingly, when you said you broke your shoulder and had a horribly painful shoulder reconstruction. So at least you had that, at least you had, at least there was a reason for you to be, I never even had a reason. I, my reason was, oh, these are pretty great. You know, my reason was they were giving us free samples and I, you know, it's yeah. Well, I mean, they were given dentists free samples. They weren't big boxes.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_01] I didn't need big boxes at first, but what they didn't do, what I didn't realize is how I was supposed to keep track of them and how it was for the, you know, the reality is they wanted us to prescribe, if you've heard of Vicoprofen, that's, it's like Vicodin, but it had, it was Ibuprofen mixed and they were, they were throwing this at dentists like crazy in the early or actually in the late nineties, because this was going to be the thing that fixed a dental pain. And I don't know that it didn't really catch on honestly, but it caught on with me. It definitely caught on with me.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_01] So it sounds like we have a similar story. I would just say, I never had a shoulder surgery. I just had people delivering, you know, free samples that were supposed to be for patients. So there you have it. Wow.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. So, uh, one night I'm sitting there on my phone and I had thought about messaging you for a very long time. And I messaged you back then, a Facebook messenger and you responded. And I think that night you saved my life. I mean, you, you responded immediately. And I was just like, I'm in crisis. I, I can't keep living this way. I am miserable. I am completely consumed.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_04] You know, like when you're using, I would go to the bathroom like 10 times a day just to count my pills, even though I knew how many pills I had.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I, uh, yeah, totally. Yep. Absolutely. So I'm, I'm looking back. It's, it was 2017 that this was all happening. So this was like, this was like nine years ago. It's, I still have all the, the, the messenger stuff. And, and, you know, it's wild to think that, you know, it's like a.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_04] I have them too. And last night, you know, I was kind of prepping and, and thinking about what I wanted to say. And I was really hesitant to go back and read them because I'm like, do I really want to revisit probably, you know, they're probably like three rock bottoms in my life. And that was one of them. Yeah. And I did, and I'm glad I did because, um, I don't know, you said exactly the right things. And I, I went to rehab the next day.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01] That's amazing. That is amazing. Yeah. I, and I, I do remember saying, you know, that you're, the story is, is that you're, you need to do this. Uh, it sucks. It sucks. No one, no one, no one's like, this is great. You know, like occasionally you'd see someone in treatment. Oh, so funny. I go to meetings still and I'll, I'll, um, there's a treatment center in town. And so a lot of times we'll have the treatment center meetings and they are, a lot of these people are super, they're just like, this is the best thing that's ever happened. I, I never felt that way. I never felt that way. It sucks because yeah.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_01] I mean like my thing was like, and you probably remember this too. You don't know what, what's life going to be like when you get back, you know, you've been, you've been hiding everything from everyone. You go into treatment. I was gone for four and a half months, you know, and, and they, they didn't want us to have a ton of, uh, at the time. I mean, I'm, I'm sure they didn't want us to have a bunch of contact back with people back home because they were probably not healthy people in most cases. For me, I was using a loan. I, I will say this. I got into my own trouble. The people around me, if they had known they would have wanted to help me.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01] It wasn't like I, I didn't, my dealer was, was, was, was dental dealers. You know, I didn't, I didn't have, so I didn't have that, but I know that people, they were real hesitant about that. So I remember people around me were very frustrated because I didn't, I wasn't much contact while I was in treatment. Four and a half months gone. You know, it does suck. It was terrible. You didn't know what life was going to be like.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_04] It sucked. So like I told my then husband that night, I was like, I need to go to rehab. And he thought I was joking. Like I hid this so well. He thought I was joking. And I said, no, I'm serious. And I went to sleep that night and he had called the detox center and he arranged everything. And I woke up and he's like, pack your bags, we're going. And I was, I had to go to work that day.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_04] And, and he had already contacted everything and, or my boss and, and I packed my bags and I went to detox and I went to detox and I thought that was it. I thought I was going home after that.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_04] And they're like, no, from here you're going to go to, I did 30 days. Okay. Um, and, and I had a one and three year old at the time, you know, like I didn't think I could leave.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_04] And then you go there and you take someone who is the boss of everything. You know, I was the boss of my house. I was the boss, um, at work. I was used to telling people what to do and they would do it. And to take someone like that and then put them in a place where they tell you when to pee in the cup, they tell you when to eat, they tell you when to sleep. You're not allowed to miss any of the classes.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_04] Like it was, and you had said it in your messages. Um, the hard part is not the detox, which, you know, that is.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_01] It sucked, but it was, I mean, like the reality is you and I both knew what detox was going to feel like. Cause we, we were constantly running, running out of what we wanted. So we were in withdrawal all the time. Exactly. That's how opiate users are. It's just the way it is. Yeah.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_04] But the hard part was the humility. Yes. I mean, the letting go of the control. I mean, I was a nightmare for the first two weeks and, and I, you know, every single day I'm leaving, I'm leaving. This is horrible, you know? And, and everyone kept saying, wait for the two weeks, something magical happens at two weeks.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_04] And, and it's true. Like right at two weeks, the chemicals clear. And all of a sudden I was like, Oh, I'm sorry. I was such a bitch for the first two weeks.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. But I mean, and there's, there are people that leave too. Like I, I, I had enough writing on it where if I, it was really funny that when I went into treatment, I was in detox for three days, which was wild, just wild because it was also the detox I was in was also like a, a, another treatment center. A treatment center I went to was, was, um, special, specialized in healthcare professionals and, and professionals and stuff like that. It was kind of a, kind of a highfalutin place. The detox was not, the detox was pretty, pretty street level.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_01] And I, I, I saw some stuff that I can never unsee there, you know? And the best part is I went in there and I only had the clothes that I'd worn to work that day. Like they, they intervened. I mean, I left, that's all I had. I woke up and I put the same clothes back on. That's all I had. It was, it was, it was brutal. But, um, yeah, I saw a guy in end stage liver failure who I don't know. I don't know what happened to him. I saw some crazy stuff. Um, and I, it's funny because it was a long, it was a long time ago. You know, it was 20, almost 25 years ago that it happened.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_01] But it, so it's, it isn't as vivid as well. There was a time when I'm like, I need to write a book about this. This was a, and it is kind of an amazing story, but it has sort of faded. It's, it's wild, but I, I'll remember the humility is the thing that I'll never forget because I, I've thought to myself since then and, and working with different dentists and stuff. I'm like, you know, the reason that dentistry and medicine, people don't get this stuff. Well, man, it's, it's hard. It doesn't take well when people have addiction stuff and it's the humility.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_01] It's, it's the, I have to take direction from other people and I just have to, I just have to own it. I have to eat it. You know, I can't, I can't, my best thinking got me here. So I have to trust someone else to make better decisions for me. And, you know, like I, you and I were talking about before we started recording, you know, I look at, I look at social media now and I look at, I'm like, there's no one that, there's no one out there saying you need to take better instruction and you need to listen to people who know better. There's nothing like that. You got to be the boss of your life. You got to be the big leadership.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_01] The great, uh, sorry, I'm a dope fiend. So I need, you know, I need some help. I don't, and I don't, I wonder to myself, I'm like, man, get our people. And now, and then you see this, you probably see this too. You see the sobriety influence. And I've been bitching about that lately. The sobriety influencers who go online and they've got, they literally have 60 days. I'm like, great, fantastic. I maybe would have waited a little while. I'm just saying maybe, you know, it's just, so I just, yeah, it is the, that was the thing that got me the most.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_01] The humility, the time when the very first time I was back to work and I had to drop and I went in at five o'clock in the morning to the lab and the woman who came to get me from the waiting room was a patient and she knew exactly why I was there. I'm like, oh man. So yeah, this is real life. It's just, it's just a lot of, like you said, you said a lot with that, the humility. It wasn't, it wasn't about the, it wasn't about the withdrawal. It was about, you know, learning that I, I didn't get to do what I wanted to do anymore. You know?

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_04] Yep. And then relearning how to live life after, because, you know, like I said, it's so consuming, like so all consuming. And those first few months back in normal life, it's like you're a baby taking your first steps again. Like everything feels scary, you know?

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_04] And I think the biggest surprise for me about that whole experience was that nobody cared.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_01] That's exactly right. That's exactly right.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_04] Nobody cares. Nobody does. You know, you're so embarrassed. Like you think you're going to lose your career.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_04] Nobody cares.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_01] Nobody even noticed. Nobody, I, I, most of, a lot of my patients know now, but nobody cares. You all right? Oh, there we go. There you go. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I'm here now. That's all right. I still have, I didn't lose anything here. So good. We're all right.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_02] Okay, good.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_01] So yeah, nobody cares. You're exactly right. Nobody cares. Nobody cares. And the funny thing is, is you think everyone's going to care and notice and all this stuff. Like no one notices any of this stuff.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_04] Nobody cares. Same thing with when I closed my practice, you know, such a big thing was like the embarrassment, the shame of like, nobody cares.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_04] Like nobody is thinking about you as much as you think about you. Yeah. And you know, if anything, everyone was so compassionate about both, you know, like I was very open about my, with my patients about recovery and nobody cared.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_04] Like I think if there's one thing that I want to tell anyone who is thinking about going to recovery is like those things don't matter. It's the hard parts about rebuilding and redefining and relationships. My, when I got sober, that was the beginning of the end of my marriage. That I realized I didn't have a addiction problem. I had a relationship problem.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_03] Interesting.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_04] That I was using. And so that really was, that relationship was built on when I was broken, the relationship went really well.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_03] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_04] But when I, I started to become my own person, you know, you know, after I got back, I, that's when I bought my practice. And that's when I started to do a lot of self introspection and learning about who I am and what I want and those kinds of things. And, uh, he didn't like that.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01] Mm-hmm. No, I get it. I get it. I get it. That's, and I mean, you know, people who are, who've come into recovery and that, and it happens. It's not, it's not uncommon for that to happen. I mean, cause, cause a lot of times, well, shoot, I, I, I was high when I got married. Like I literally was, it was using the day that I was, I mean, I was already in active addiction when I got married. And so I got into treatment and the first thing all my therapists told me is your wife doesn't even know you. And they may have been right. We, we worked it out.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01] We're still married and, and, uh, you know, but, but what's funny about that is that I kind of get it. Um, and they, they wanted to make, make that a big thing. I don't know. It's, but the reality is, is that's not an uncommon thing. I mean, people, you hear about that all the time and, and recovery is a funny thing because like some of you said, nobody cares. You think about this stuff way more than anyone else does. And, and even if you explain it to them, they still don't care because they're dealing with their stuff.

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_01] Like everyone's dealing with their own stuff. And dentists probably need to think about this too, because I think sometimes we think when the patient is in our chair that they're just, they just can't stop looking and listening and understanding us. They don't, they don't at all. Oh my gosh. I love it. Hello, Bruce.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_04] Bruce. This is Bruce. He's the other ones. Go away. Sorry.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01] You're all right. It is. It's funny. It's funny how, how wrapped up with self we get. And I mean, like I said, I've been, I've been clean for almost 25 years and I, I'm, I, I'm, I'm probably less close to the recovery process now than I was then on some level. And some of the healthier things, the idea that like, I kind of forget that we get so wrapped up in ourself. And so I, I keep having to relearn this stuff, even though I've been, I've been clean and sober for a long time. It just, it is wild.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_01] And for anyone listening, you don't have to be a drug addict to benefit from some of this, this, the, you know, nobody's paying attention to that stuff. All the stuff you think is super important. Your marketing capabilities, your, you know, your new patient flow, your amazing product. Nobody cares about that. So nobody's, nobody cares at all. So nobody, so you got clean, you got divorced, you bought a practice at some point in here.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_04] I did. And I had a pretty rough practice ownership journey. I mean, I, I had like, like there was a big crisis every year. So, so the first year my dad passed the second year, my office manager, who was my best friend.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_04] She worked with me as my office manager at the previous place.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_03] Yep.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_04] And, um, so, you know, you know, I poached her and we are going to build this great thing and it was awesome. And I, I, I didn't have to do anything. She ran my life. And, and not only was she my office manager, we were best friends. So she would, after work, she'd come to my house. She'd help me, you know, with my kids. And then we, she'd go home and then we'd do it again the next day.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_04] And, um, she and I, she is, uh, she's very spicy. She gets really, um, very emotional. Anyway, so we got into a fight one day and she packed up and she left. And we really have never spoken since.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_03] Wow.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. It, I, you know, I, I am a big forgiver. And so I'd never had a loss like that. You know, um, it was, it was devastating.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I have someone who literally has been with me for 27 years in my practice. Uh, and if she like, she runs the place that would be, that would gut me. That would gut me. And really to, to rebuild after that would be really hard. And you, and everyone says you shouldn't, you should have systems. You shouldn't have people. I'm like, I know, I know, but this is, this is sort of where I, there's a lot of offices out there that are like that. So Tiffany, that's probably a relatively normal thing. God, that's awful.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_04] And then I, that year I had, um, my billing company embezzled $133,000 from me. I just wondered if the next year was COVID.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_04] And I, after COVID, I feel like I never could recover. I, it, COVID did something to my confidence that I never got back. Um, and then, and then never being able to find that staff again, you know, I mean, I am like heavily ADHD. Like I am high scoring ADHD across the board.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_04] And so it just, to have to run it on my own and to make those decisions about staffing and to never feel like I had enough money to hire good staff, but without good staff, I couldn't make enough money to hire good. It was like this horrible.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01] It's a, it's a vicious circle. And I feel it so much hiring, hiring since 2020 has been literally, okay, if this was going to drive me out of practicing dentistry, that's it. That's it. And, and, and it's always as a practice owner and I'm a small practice, just, I suspect you were a small practice. It's not like, it's not like you had, you had other offices to lean on for staffing or whatever. It's always the next shoe to drop, the next shoe to drop.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_01] It's, I've been stable for some months, but you know what? Not that many months. And, and, and I'm, I need to be hiring and I don't want to be hiring because it's such I'm, I'm so beat up from it. I'm so, I'm emotionally. Yeah. I could say if anything would drive me out of practice, that would probably be it. If you told me, well, you just get a hire. Like, and I mean, it's real life. We should be hiring all the time, according to everyone, but man, I just, I just can't take it. It's tough on my ego. It's tough on my. But yeah, everything.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_04] You get burned too. You know, like you find someone who you think is going to change everything and then they just like no show one day, you know, like, and text you and like, oh, by the way, I'm not coming back. And I'm like.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I can't tell you how many people I've, I can't tell you how many people I've talked to who think they have a hire and then the person doesn't even make it to the interview. They don't even make it to the interview. And this is the funny thing about this is like, oh no, you're kidding. No, I've heard multiple people talk about this. This is like real. And they don't like, they ghost you for the interview. And I'm just thinking to myself, God, at least it was the interview that we had. We hired someone that was going to be a front desk. She came in. She'd been working in a different office.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_01] She came in and she made it 20 minutes. And she said, this job isn't for me. I'm leaving by. And that's what she did. And I'm just thinking to myself, so wonder why am I, why am I hesitant to do hiring? Because, because people are nuts. And this is every, ever since COVID, everyone is just kind of crazy about hiring. I don't know. And I mean, it's not fair, but it's been my experience and it's been the experience of lots of people that I've talked to.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_04] And because there is such a shortage of staff, they can, like they can bounce around and they can just like quit on the spot. I had a hygienist quit on the spot at like 10 o'clock in the morning. I'm like, my whole hygiene column is booked. Like what, you know? So what else happened? A flood ruined an operatory. I broke my finger. Like I, what else?

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01] You have to be worried to walk out your door at that point. Just, I mean like, oh my God, that's amazing.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_04] And then six months before I actually closed it, my server crashed. And that was, I mean, okay. So think about it, right? Your server crashes.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_01] You're talking about the top 10 things that would literally keep me up at night. And then you hit the server. You're like, oh shit, there it is.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_04] So you can't even call a recall list, you know? Like you can't even call like, because if you pull a recall list and you're like, hi, Mrs. Jones, like I want to get you in for a crown. And Mrs. Jones is like, oh, we did that crown six months ago. Like it was horrible.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_04] And so at that point I was like, I'm still, I still wanted to keep going. I wasn't ready to let it go. And the straw that broke the camel's back was I had a miscarriage. And I speak about it because I think we don't speak about it enough. I mean, once it happened, I started talking to my friends.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_04] Nearly every single friend I have has had a miscarriage or IVF or failures of, you know, like rounds and rounds. And so I think it's something that we really, we need to be more open about because it is, it is, it affects so many of us because we delay having, you know, having a family for so long.

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[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_01] So use very ship, all one word today.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_04] So that was the moment, like that was the moment where I'm like, this is literally killing me. And so I, within, I think like two weeks of that, I closed the practice. Like I didn't sell it. I didn't transfer it. Like I just closed it. I sent a email out, you know, and it's like, I will see you for emergencies and finish up cases for the next 30 days. And that's it. And, um, and it was pretty brutal. Like it, it was heartbreaking.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_04] Like it was probably more heartbreaking than my divorce, like letting go of this thing that, you know, it was my future. It was, it was who I wanted to become, who I thought I was going to become.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_01] No, it's so true. It's so true. Exactly. So when was that? When, when was it that you closed?

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_04] I closed, it was two years ago. So it was around June, two years ago.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_01] 2024. Okay. Okay.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. So then I went and I tried. What is, I'm sorry.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01] What does that even look like? Okay. You close your last day. And yeah, I mean, you, you've kind of covered your bases with patients that, you know, that sort of thing. I mean, did you own a building? Did you, I mean, you were, I know, I remember you were trying to sell equipment. You're kind of like, like what in the world? I feel like, I feel like there's so much, so much to liquidate on that. I don't even know where, where I would start on that.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_04] So at that point I had defaulted on my rent. And so I got a letter from the landlord and it says, we're going to lock your doors in three days. So I literally put a post on Facebook to the Austin community. And I was like, I need to sell everything. And that probably was the most heartbreaking thing was to watch your equipment walk out

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_04] the door for like cents on the dollar, you know, like it was, it was brutal. And, you know, I didn't think I needed help. I wasn't even going to like have an assistant or then with me and the mommy dentist in business, they, they, the Austin chapter heard about it. And they actually came in shifts.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_03] Okay.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_04] And it was the most, like, thank you for all of you that came. Yes. They came in two hour shifts.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_04] And there was always a mom there and I sat and cried in my office and they did all the negotiation for me.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_04] And they documented who got what. And I am forever grateful for those women who came. God bless them.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_01] Holy, that's fantastic. Wow. That is awesome.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_04] So.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01] But it's like every one of them has probably thought, God, if this ever happened to me, what would have. So yeah, I get it. I get it. It's amazing. It's amazing.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. So then I closed it. I was there the moment that they came to lock the doors. Yeah. And, you know, the guy, oh, he, poor guy. He's just like a 20 year old guy. Yeah. That's his job. Yeah. He's like, I'm sorry. Like, I hate this. Yeah. And, you know, I'm crying. I'm sobbing. Of course. Of course. Um, and, uh, so that closed that chapter. Mm-hmm.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_04] Um, in that process, I was trying to get people to buy the office. Sure. So I had met, um, a dentist or like a group that I ended up, you know, they offered me a job.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_03] Mm-hmm.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_04] And so I went and I, I worked for them for a little bit.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_03] Mm-hmm.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_04] As one can imagine, it was challenging.

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_04] Um, to go from owning your own office and you have a very specific philosophy on how you do things.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_01] Yep.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_04] To someone telling you how to do it.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_04] And how to practice and how to treatment plan. And so that didn't go very well. Yeah. To say the least.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_01] Previous owners are probably, that's probably a tough, tough, uh, tough gig to, to go in when, yeah, I don't know. I'm, I'd like to think I could be a good associate, but I suspect I'm, I'm kind of broken in that way. I'm, I don't know that I'd take, take orders very well. That's why. No.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_04] God. Okay. It sucks. Yeah. It's, it, it was very challenging. Yeah. I'll bet.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_03] I'll bet.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_04] And, and I did really well there. I mean, while I was there, I delivered a 30,000 full, $30,000 full arch. Um, I did some really cool dentistry. Um, but it, it just didn't overcome the philosophy differences in how we practice, you know?

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_03] Right. Right.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_04] So I got fired. Yeah. Which, um, it is what it is.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_01] Frankly, after, after everything else, that's probably not even that tough.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_04] God. Nope. I mean, it was like a relief to everyone, you know? Like when it finally happened, it was like, oh, thank God. Like the suffering will end because it was uncomfortable for, for all of us. I get it.

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01] I get it.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, wow.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. So, so you, yeah, you decided after that you were done being a dentist. Is that right?

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_04] I, I did. I was like, I am going to do social media. Yeah.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_03] Mm-hmm.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_04] And, uh, my mom loved this idea.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_03] Mm-hmm.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_04] My, my Asian mom.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_03] Mm-hmm.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_04] It's like, oh my gosh, my doctor daughter is gonna. So, so I did that for a little bit. Mm-hmm. And, or I still do that, but I had, um, Tiff the ADHD dentist. And that went really well.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_03] Mm-hmm.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_04] Um, I, you know, I gained followers and, and things, but as we were talking about before, um, I was trying to coach burnout.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_01] Yep.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_04] You know?

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_01] Yep. Well, first off, I have to tell you, you, you are the most amazing case of burnout I've ever heard of in my entire life. I, I have been burnt out at different times in my, my career. I've podcasted about it a bunch of times and the kind of burnout that I have is typically something that the, the prescription is, you know, go to the beach for a week or take some CE or, or just, you know, like the reality, even me, I was gone for four and a half months for, for treatment and I came back and it ended up being okay.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_01] Cause I had, I had a support system and I had, but I'm telling you what, man, you had everything. You had everything happen. That is insane. So I get it. I get it. I, I don't, I got to tell you after the server, I'd have been out. I'd have been out. I'm like, I'm done. That's it. I don't have patients anymore. My server doesn't exist. I am done. So you, you went well beyond that as far as I'm concerned. So that is, that is the, the most amazing case of burnout ever. I would argue maybe it's a little more than burnout, but tell me about, tell me about burnout with you.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01] What do you, what you've, you've noticed. What was the, what was the, what was the thing that made you decide you were the person to talk about it?

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_04] So I, I do everything very, um, like I do it very hard, you know? So, so in opening this social media thing, it was learning about burnout and understanding it. So burnout is actually like, it is recognized by the WHO as a like quote unquote illness.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_04] Um, and there are three main factors, energy depletion, cynicism and workplace, like decrease workplace efficacy. And like I fit all of them, you know, like that, that $30,000 case that I delivered, I felt nothing. Like I did this beautiful case and I felt nothing when I delivered it. I was so, I had no affect.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_04] And, and, and, you know, a few months after I, I quit, we were at dinner and my 12 year old, he looked at me and he was like shocked. And I was like, what, what? Like, do I have something on my face? And he's like, you just laughed. He's like, I haven't heard you laugh in forever. And like, that was such a, like, it was such a moment for me, you know, that I was like,

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_04] I made the right decision. Yeah. You know?

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_04] So, um,

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_01] That's hard. It's so, I, like, I, I, the thing that I think I would wonder about is how I would constantly feel like, you know, you go to school for all this stuff, you do all these things in your life and then you don't do it. And you're like, how am I not a failure? How am I not a, like, that's kind of, that's got to like play you constantly.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_04] It, I mean, it definitely does. You know, I am still in this redefining who I am, which I think is a big part of burnout is that so many of us identify. Yes.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_03] Yes.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_04] Like it is our identity. I am a dentist, not I am someone who does dentistry.

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_04] And, and I think that I see these young influencers on TikTok and they're so into it, you know? And I want to message them and say like, you are on the path to burnout. Like you cannot make this your whole identity.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_04] You have to have, um, like the things, the things that made you, you before you became a dentist, like they're so important. And so many of us, like I did, like dentistry, my practice became my whole identity. Like I, I was the dental house, you know? And, um.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_01] I got to tell you something that's so funny. I mean, I've thought about this in different ways. Okay. So I practice in a town called Saginaw, Michigan. We're, we're kind of right in the middle of the, the lower peninsula. And, uh, you know, we have Saginaw and in Midland where I live and I mean, hunting, fishing and everything up North, it's, it's a big thing. So I'm going to tell you this. I have a lot of friends who are dentists in Saginaw, but I'm not as close with them

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_01] as a lot of them, them are with each other because they do, they all go hunting together because they love to hunt. They all do. And, and what's really funny is you just said, these guys are dentists and they're friends partly because they share a profession, but more than that, they share all these things too. And they came in and they became in, in, and I don't think we're all older than talking about these. Like, like, I, I mean, my dad and all his colleagues, all, they would take CE together, but they

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_01] would also be, it would be on a hunting trip or it would be a, uh, you know, something, you know, or I have a friend who does scuba diving and stuff. So the reality is, is that you don't really see in the, I will say, we're going to segue over to the, some of the criticism I've had for the social media stuff. You don't see that it's your life is being, being the cool dentist. You know, you're that, that's what it is. You're what you said is to set a mouthful and it pisses me off to be honest, because I'm too old to feel like I could do that. But I see so much of it. I'm like, this is not, this isn't real. This isn't how people really are.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_01] You know, I, I started practicing in a time when there was no social media. Mind you, I was a hopeless drug addict at the time, but even then, like I was when dental town came up in the early two thousands, I was kind of social media for the time. And even then it didn't feel the same way. Now it's now it feels, it's like, it has to be part of your identity in order for you to be an influencer. In other words, what's my influence if I'm not a, if I'm not an important dentist or something like that.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_01] It's really, it's, it's, it's right out there. What you said is a mouthful. Yes, they are on the way to burnout because you can't, and you know, too, it's a content game. You constantly have to be putting stuff out. You constantly have to be creating stuff. I mean, having podcasts this long, I, it's a, you got to feed the beast, you know, and it's, and that's not a normal way to live. It really isn't. It's just, I'm sorry. I cut you off.

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_01] But I, so go back to the influencers that you were talking about and how, how, you know, how they were, how they're sort of walking down a path, not realizing it. How did you, how did you realize that?

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_04] Um, you know, I think like, I'm really into like evolutionary biology. And I think a thousand years ago or whatever, we spent a lot of time with ourselves, you know, like you, you'd go and you'd gather berries and, and you'd be in your head. And so there was a lot of time to process like who you are and what your values are.

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_04] And if you get in a fight with your friend, you have time to kind of like mull it over. And, and in today's society, we are so idiotically efficient with our time. You know, we're listening to podcasts. We're learning this. We're taking CEs. We're seeing patients. We're following, you know, there's no alone time or quiet.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_01] And if you have some, you need to fill it up with something productive and important.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_04] Exactly. And so I think what happens is when you don't know who you are, you look outside yourself to define who you are. And the problem is like what a good dentist is, you're getting such conflicting information, you know, like you need to make a boatload of money. You need to drive this kind of car. Oh, but you also need to be compassionate.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_04] And then we have patients telling us we're money grubbing pigs and that you're greedy and all the, you know.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_01] And also if you're not delivering it all on for every day, what are you doing? And, you know, or if you're not saving all the teeth, you're like, it's, everything's conflicting. There's a lot of, a lot of great ways you can be a dentist, but, but if you, if you look at social media, media, every one that you're doing is wrong. That's it's, it's the comparison culture. It's like, no matter how you feel about what you do, you can find someone that's telling you that you're doing it absolutely wrong. And I mean, it's, it's true. And it's, it's really not good for your mental health.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_01] It's honestly, I, I, I go daily. I think to myself, why, why am I even on this anymore? Why, but there's so much of a draw because so many of my friends are there, but God, why am I even, it's not good for my brain. It's not good.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_04] And, and then there's no like realistic expectation of what your life should look like. Like, I think that most dentists, the biggest problem is loneliness.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_04] I think most dentists are very, very isolated. And like, for me at the end of the day, I was completely depleted. So I didn't have time to call a friend or plan brunch or go to a study club. It was literally the weekends were just recovery, which meant candy crush for hours and hours,

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_01] you know, like unplug, let your brain go into neutral if you can. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_04] And, and so like the only way you have to measure how well you're doing is this online. Perfect.

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_04] All on four case. Yeah. Perfect. You know, full mouth rehab every single time. And then you start, you know, that further isolates you.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_01] It does isolate. That is an isolating thing. What's so funny is you think about social media. I get to see what other people are doing, except that's very isolating. Sorry. It's, it's not seeing what other people are doing. It's, it's other people pointing out what you aren't doing or what, what they think. For someone like me who is susceptible to that, if I, if you had such a strong ego that you were, you know, what other people are doing wouldn't affect you, then great. I'm not like that. I mean, I can, I can, depending on the kind of day I'm having, what I see there can really change the way I feel about myself. That's not good.

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_01] That's not good at all. That's okay. Patients, go ahead.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_04] Patients change, change too, because of, so I don't know, social media, COVID all of a sudden, you know, like when I started practicing, there wasn't this whole, like, like dragging patients kicking and screaming through their treatment. You know, like it went from, I am a healthcare provider to, I am now hustling for my worth and trying to convince people that they need this. And, and that I'm not good at that.

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_04] Like, I don't want to sell myself.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_04] Like do it or don't.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_01] The other thing I, I, I talk with, this is so funny because I talk with my best friend from dental school most days. And honestly, some of the days I shouldn't, you mentioned how cynicism is a part of burnout. Holy shit. Like our conversations, I hope will never be recorded because there's a lot of cynicism. And one of the things that he and I always talk about is like, I don't care how good you are at explaining treatment patients. I don't, I don't think they have a capacity to understand treatment very well. But the other thing is, is they kind of don't really want to understand it that well.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_01] The classic thing is when you, you literally spent 40 minutes in a consultation explaining what you're doing. They come in for the first appointment and say, what are we doing again today, doc? And you're like, you have to be fucking kidding me. What are we, what are we even doing this about? And that's, that's maybe new. That's that, that, you know, it's like, uh, I, that's real in that, uh, that'll grind you down faster than about anything really and truly like that and staff stuff.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_04] And the lack of accountability, like the whole, like you're judging me. Like, yeah, I, I am judging. That's my job to give you my, my professional judgment.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_01] You did come here to see me. That's in, I mean, it's not just cause I'm a guy. I do actually have a degree and we, you know, I'm trained in this. Yeah.

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. And like, you're hurting my feelings. It's like, no, you're hurting your feelings. You're choosing to be hurt. Yeah.

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_01] You know, there's a, there's a lot there. Okay. So I wanted, I really want to bring this into it because last year at this time, Dawn Grimes and I did a, a podcast and it was honestly, it was, it was really pointed at what you and I just talked about the influencers that are there, there was a barrage of influencers that were coaching and talking about burnout. And we were very, very harsh on, on those people. In a lot of cases, it's, it was, uh, I mean, people who wanted to coach on burnout.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_01] Right. I mean, people who wanted to, these are people in, in, in a lot of cases, these are dentists that were no longer practicing dentistry. And what sucks is that you're one of them. You were one of them. I, you, I, we weren't, we weren't, I wasn't as, you're not on my radar at that point, but you were kind of doing the same sort of thing that we were hypercritical of. I still don't think we were wrong, but I do think the point about, I think, um, I'm going to just say this, right. You understand burnout for real. I'm on those other people do not understand burnout. You understand burnout for real.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_01] And, and the reality is, is like, even then you were attempting to get in there and help people with burnout. Is that right? At one point, that was sort of what you were hoping you were going to pick up and do.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_04] That that's in the beginning of TIFF, the ADHD dentist. That was what I was trying to do. I was trying to coach people and it like, it was so hard because I felt what you're, what you're speaking to is how am I supposed to coach people if I'm the one that left,

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_03] you know?

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_04] And, and, um, it felt really yucky and I, I didn't like it.

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_01] One of our points, one of Dawn and my points was like, look, most people can't leave. They don't have any options. They have to do this. And I'm thinking to myself, you thought that of yourself too. And you did end up leaving because you realized that it was killing you. Very different. Very different. Like part of me goes, yeah, you know what? You got your student loans, all this stuff. But the reality is like you came to a point where you really couldn't do it anymore. And, and that's, I, Dawn and I were sort of like, well, you know, the ones who just

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_01] bailed out and want to coach are, are taking the easy way out. I think I would argue that you did not take the easy way out. I mean, you, you, you hung on as long as you could.

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_04] I did. And, and I really do think, you know, it was a, like, I had lost myself. Like I was not a person. I was so miserable. I was just barely hanging on. I would literally come home, feed my kids and then be on Candy Crush for like six hours. Yeah. And then, you know, like not talk to them, not look at them, not, you know, I, one of

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_04] the videos I have on that account is like a letter that I wrote to them of just like, I'm sorry that I was so absent during that time. Um, and so it was the best decision I ever made. Um, within two weeks, my body stopped hurting. Um, you know, like two months I started laughing again.

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_04] Um, and I do think that I could, I like, I've, I have coached a handful of dentists and I do think I made a significant difference, but it's just the selling of it.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_04] It felt really yucky. Um, and yeah, it was, it was tough because not only did people see that, you know, like, well, who is she to coach? I felt it, you know?

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_01] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's really funny. I said this before we started recording. I'm like, you know, the only thing I know I could coach on is a recovery from addiction. And it's only because I was there and I did it all, you know, I've been doing it for a long time and I have that experience in, but I got to tell you that I don't know that it's the same thing. I also know that no one's paying big bucks for, uh, for, for addiction coaches in dentistry. And I mean, it might be a good fit for me, but I don't know that it's, I don't know that it's the right thing.

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_01] I will say that, so it's like, what, what makes a coach? I would argue that you probably, you probably be the most effective burnout coach ever. But even then when you would feel icky about it, I get it. I totally get it. So we, you talked about how this being a dentist and actually just in, in sort of recovering from being a dentist made you feel isolated. And so I guess I want to move, I want to move into what you're doing now.

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_01] What's, what's your, what's your, if the coaching didn't feel right, you've kind of come up with something else. So I want to hear about that. So, so, so give it to me.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_04] So, okay. So as I was closing my practice, I was posting videos and one of the, um, one of my, my old friend dentist, he, he is old and he is also a friend that had been a friend for since I had moved to Austin. So that 15 years at that point, he had seen one of my social media videos or a friend told him that I was closing my practice or whatever.

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_04] And he just showed up one day, like towards the very, one of the last few days he showed up and he stayed and we talked for like three hours and I cried and, you know, he wasn't trying to fix anything. It was just someone further along who understood the struggles. And so after it closed, I thought, what is, what is the thing that would have made a difference?

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_04] And I thought back to that whole thing about him just showing up. And so that is the, the genesis of, it's called Dentor Match. So kind of like, like match.com, but Dentor, like mentor. So it is a place where you go and you find a mentor and it just, it's not, you don't need to be an expert to be a mentor. You don't need to have it all together.

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_04] You just need to be a little bit further along and be willing to meet online. You know, the, the commitment is once a month on, on zoom, uh, for an hour. And it's just that whole, like, I think what's missing is dentists aren't allowed to complain.

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_04] You know, like when you complain, what happens is you get people saying you have no right to complain. It's such a prestigious job. But here's the thing, like young men these days, you know, there's the crisis of young men.

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_03] Yep.

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_04] They're not less lonely because they have it better than someone else.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_04] Or, you know, like a, a, a mom isn't less frazzled because she's the one that wanted the third kid.

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_04] And, you know, a dentist isn't less burned out because their career is prestigious.

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_04] And so I think it's this, this to be witnessed.

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_04] You know, just to be in the presence of someone who understands the struggles. And so I was like, okay, how are we going to get people to find that person? And so I built it. I have no idea. I had no idea how to, I built a whole website. I coded it. It is on a platform and, um, and it, it is my answer to the burnout problem.

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_01] I like it. I like it. Matt, we've talked about mentorship on the podcast a lot. And, and the reality is, is that there I got my lights turned on. I got dark on me here. It's pretty good. Um, we, uh, we've talked about it a lot and, and I will tell you that there've been no solutions because mentorship in the old days was, you know, you, you, maybe you went to practice with that old guy and he taught you everything you knew and you, he brought you into the, you know, my dad was a mentor to me.

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_01] I, he brought me to my very first study club meeting, same place I go 30 years later. And, but the reality is like mentorship is just not, it's not like what, like it used to be. Maybe it never was, but, um, cause mentorship is not just an old guy who shows you what to do, but it's someone who's trying to understand and trying to help and trying to, you know, like you said, someone who's been there before. And that's, I, I feel like it's, is, is as easily connected as the internet allows us to be.

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_01] It's not, it's not common. It's not common. There are some people that have really good mentors, but it's not, not common. So I really like what you're doing. I think it's really cool.

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. And you know, like I know a lot of dentists are going to say, well, I'm burnt out. Like I'm frazzled. Like, how am I going to mentor? Or anyone. And, you know, but, but I, so very interesting. There's been studies done not on mentees, but on mentors. And the studies show that when you are mentoring someone, your job satisfaction goes up, your,

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_04] uh, your ability to make money goes up, your excitement for it. It is a win-win situation for everyone.

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_01] Best line in Narcotics Anonymous. We keep what we have only by giving it away. That's how it works. That's how it works. That, that's real. I love that. That's great. So if someone's like, boy, I could use a mentor or I could be a mentor or I'm interested in this. What's, what's the best way for them to get involved?

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_04] So it's, uh, dentormatch.com. Okay.

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_01] And the shirts and the show notes.

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_04] It is, uh, free for mentors.

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_01] Okay.

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_04] Mentees. You sign up, you, uh, create an account and then you can browse mentors. You can request to have a mentor and it is the point at which a mentor accepts your request. That's when you pay. And it is for the whole dental team. I built it for assistants, hygienists, office managers. I even have lab technicians.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_03] Nice.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_04] Because I think that that is part of the dental field that we always forget about.

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_03] Sure.

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_04] And so, um, so the, the mentor matching there are, uh, I, I have written all of these burnout articles that, so there's a library on there. I have already built, but not turned on yet. Um, because there's just not enough people and, um, rooms. So where you can go and chat.

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_01] That makes perfect sense to have. Yeah. Yeah. And this sounds like you've sort of, you're trying to create a safe space where it's not like, it's not like you're going to have some of the shit that you see on Instagram. Mind you, I'm hopelessly addicted to Instagram, but, but, um, you need to be, you need to have your defenses up when you're looking at that stuff. Cause you never know what's going to get under your skin. So you need a safe place. That's, that sounds good.

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_04] There's no algorithm to keep you there. There's no, um, you know, like I have heavily built in like toxicity, like, you know, if anyone's toxic, it shuts down the conversation. Yeah. Um, there is for the dentist, at least there is, um, like, uh, NPI verification for identity.

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_03] Okay.

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_04] You know, my biggest thing is like, I don't want a mentee to go and meet a mentor. That's not, it's not a dentist.

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_01] I know you'd like to think in the world, in this world, we wouldn't need to, but you have to, that's, I'm glad you thought of that. That's good. That's fantastic. We've been going for a while. So honest and open about it. Uh, uh, this is cool. This is really cool.

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_04] I didn't expect it to go like this. I know no other way.

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Well, that's yeah. After a while you kind of learn that way. You've sort of, sort of done that. So, uh, Tiffany, I'll make sure to put all this on the show notes. If you have any questions or comments for Tiffany, let's do it in the, let's do it in the very dental, uh, Facebook group, which is also a non-toxic place. Uh, there's not that many of us on there, but I only let people who listen to the podcast in. So they have to give, they have to give me a password to get in. So I have a bunch of passwords, but, uh, I'm going to just, I'm going to give a new password for this one.

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_01] Tiffany, Tiffany will get you in to the, to the, uh, the very dental podcast group. So if you're not a member, come, come join a member. And then if you have questions, we can get Tiffany in there and, uh, we'll get, get you hooked up to dentermatch all this stuff. This is great. It's very good. Thank you for coming on, Tiff. This was awesome.

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_04] Thank you. Yes. And please, I, I, the, the biggest, my biggest concern is they're not going to be enough mentors. So if you, uh, you know, have one hour a month, please, please, please go on there.

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_01] I have one hour a month. I'll sign up. Yeah.

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_04] You could change a life, you know, you really could.

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_01] Very cool. Thanks a ton, Tiff. We'll talk to you again soon.

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_04] Thank you so much. Yay.