Very Dental Student: Dr. John Corbett on Perio Residency

[00:00:01] This is a production of The Very Dental Podcast Network

[00:00:09] It's time for a very dental podcast just for students and new dentists

[00:00:14] Welcome to The Very Dental Student Podcast and now here's your host Mohamed Aboubasha

[00:00:20] Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of The Very Dental Student Podcast. I'm your host Mohamed Aboubasha

[00:00:26] Today, I have a good friend on Dr. John Corbett

[00:00:30] John how are you doing today? Doing very good. How about yourself? I'm doing amazing

[00:00:34] I'm really excited to get into this topic that we have planned for you all today. So just some background story

[00:00:41] Dr. Corbett is

[00:00:43] Well was just finished up his perio residency

[00:00:47] at OU so I've gotten the pleasure and the great opportunity to

[00:00:55] assist him on a few cases up in grad perio and

[00:00:59] It's been I've definitely learned a lot just being up there watching him work

[00:01:03] So dr. Corbett, I want you to give us just a little bit of some background on you

[00:01:09] Just like why you got into dentistry or how you got into dentistry and and so on

[00:01:15] Well first thing thanks for having me on

[00:01:18] Second thing I love the past tense as in was a resident. Oh, that's never felt sweeter to me

[00:01:24] So I graduated from the OU College of Dentistry in 2021

[00:01:28] Was immediately accepted into the University of Oklahoma

[00:01:33] Graduate periodontics program. I went one for one in the match program and now here I am and I'm getting ready to transition

[00:01:39] Into the Air Force as a periodontist in the near future

[00:01:44] Awesome, yeah, so

[00:01:46] Did you always know that you were going to do perio residency?

[00:01:50] You know, I didn't no I just like I think most of your listeners probably do I shadowed as many specialties as I could

[00:01:59] I did notice that the periodontist I I shadowed I tended to like that more than the others

[00:02:07] But I really kept an open mind I fully planned on being a general dentist until I'd say Oh

[00:02:14] Halfway, maybe towards the end of second year of dental school

[00:02:17] Where I just felt geez this perio lectures are pretty cool it all seems to make sense to me

[00:02:23] I

[00:02:24] Enjoyed doing it in clinic and I also had a great relationship with one of the professors down in the graduate periodontics department

[00:02:31] and

[00:02:32] You know in talking with him

[00:02:34] I got to kind of get a sense of what the lifestyle is of a periodontist and it sold me

[00:02:39] That's what I wanted to do

[00:02:42] Awesome. Yeah, so you

[00:02:45] You mentioned like the lifestyle of the parrot what exactly

[00:02:48] Drew you to perio like I just maybe unpack that a little bit more for the listeners. Sure

[00:02:55] Well as you got to see firsthand, it's pretty exciting stuff that we do and it's every procedure is something I would consider to be

[00:03:02] exciting

[00:03:04] The procedures are really neat and innovative they're very very scientifically backed

[00:03:09] most of

[00:03:11] periodontics is in the residency is

[00:03:13] Heavy literature basis that we learn the ifs whys and you know how to with all of our procedures

[00:03:22] not to mention

[00:03:24] We tend to deal

[00:03:27] with

[00:03:28] patients that have more severe issues

[00:03:32] So really we have a in my opinion a greater effect in terms of taking somebody from a pretty

[00:03:38] Desperate situation to a much better situation with usually good results at the end of it

[00:03:44] Yeah for sure. Yeah, I definitely have noticed that you know the procedures that you guys do are

[00:03:52] Definitely exciting definitely kid. I don't know keeps you on your keeps you on your feet for sure

[00:03:58] Yeah, I mean I've assisted dr. Corbett on just a few things

[00:04:03] We've done like we did like a side lateral sinus lift I assisted him on like a tunneling procedure

[00:04:10] Free gingival graft. So yeah, they do a lot of really fun stuff in there for sure

[00:04:16] Did you ever feel like you would miss?

[00:04:19] The general dentistry procedures whenever you decided to specialize, you know, it's funny because I

[00:04:26] Distinctly remember the last filling I did in dental school. It was on number 12

[00:04:30] It was a do and I got done with it and I kind of had this

[00:04:35] Moment of like wow. Okay, that's the last time I'm ever gonna do that

[00:04:38] and then

[00:04:40] Weirdly enough you never really leave general dentistry even as a specialist the foundational aspects of general dentistry are with you constantly

[00:04:49] From a basis of you know, a general dentist will ask me. Hey is this tooth restorable?

[00:04:53] Are the carries too far advanced or can we save this tooth?

[00:04:57] well

[00:04:59] More often than not we tend to help our general dance friends in terms of you know, setting the margins for crowns

[00:05:06] finalizing crown preps

[00:05:10] If that's what the referral dentist wants to do my greater point is we still very much so

[00:05:17] take some of the

[00:05:19] Capabilities of a general dentist with us into specialty. We never really stopped being dentists

[00:05:27] Yeah, that definitely makes a lot of sense. I feel like

[00:05:31] You know perio and and prost are like the two specialties that are the most

[00:05:37] like intertwined with general dentistry like it's like

[00:05:42] you can't you can't be a general dentist without having some understanding of both of those and then you also

[00:05:49] Can't be in either of those specialties without having a greater outlook on the you know, the overall restorative needs of the patient

[00:05:56] Do you think that's fair to say I would I would call both cross and perio a general dance best friend

[00:06:03] we have a tendency to really help either get general dance out of tough sticky situations or

[00:06:11] Prevent them from even getting going in the first place

[00:06:14] a pretty common thing with members of my class I graduated with in 2021 is

[00:06:20] You know routine calls texts what have you saying? Hey, what do you think about this?

[00:06:25] And usually at first it's the hey I just did something I don't know how I'm gonna be able to bail myself out of this

[00:06:32] What can I do or as they get more experience? They're like, hey, I'm looking at this situation

[00:06:38] It looks like something I got in trouble with before

[00:06:41] What would you advise before I do anything?

[00:06:44] Both perio and cross both, you know, we can't wait to help our general dentist friends out

[00:06:50] To prevent those situations from having in the first place

[00:06:53] Awesome. Yeah, so

[00:06:56] Let's talk a little bit about perio residency specifically. So I know you stayed at the same University for dental school and perio

[00:07:05] but

[00:07:06] What was the application process like like how many programs did you apply to?

[00:07:11] Is it like a match system? How does it all work?

[00:07:14] Yeah, so first starting it is a match system

[00:07:18] There are some programs that are non match

[00:07:21] Those are generally looked down upon by the other residencies in the country

[00:07:25] I chose to not apply to any non match programs

[00:07:31] So, yeah and just a brief summary of how match works

[00:07:34] I let's say I applied at five schools get five interviews

[00:07:37] I will rank all five of those programs that if I want to go to them

[00:07:42] And then the other the schools will rank me against all the other applicants

[00:07:46] There's an algorithm that nobody really has the full understanding of what it does is this somewhat confidential

[00:07:52] And then what happens on match day is you get a result and for me

[00:07:57] It was you are going to the University of Oklahoma and for Oklahoma. They said you are getting John Corbett

[00:08:04] Now you can always decline that but

[00:08:08] Last I checked the rule was if you decline a match opportunity, then you're going to get a match

[00:08:15] Opportunity then you cannot reapply for something like three years afterwards, so

[00:08:20] You are strongly encouraged to only rank schools that you have the desire to go to if you don't want to go there

[00:08:27] Do not put them on because God forbid you actually get matched them. Well, you're gonna go

[00:08:32] In terms of my experience, so I came about in a very difficult time worldwide

[00:08:38] I was in the middle of pandemic when I was applying

[00:08:41] So we didn't have the opportunities that like your listeners would now to go do externships

[00:08:49] You know just go visit the programs

[00:08:50] I didn't really get the opportunity to do that

[00:08:52] The only one I did get a chance to do that with was the United States Air Force residency down in San Antonio

[00:09:00] So ideally I would have done more of that but

[00:09:03] So I ended up applying I think let's say about six to eight

[00:09:06] Residencies total my basis for choosing them was mainly cost

[00:09:12] I have an own personal belief that you should not go to dental school and residency and then saddle yourself with

[00:09:19] hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of debt needlessly

[00:09:22] More often than not. I think you'll find that people regret that in the long run if they weigh overspend for their dental education

[00:09:30] So on the basis of that I went through I looked at all the websites

[00:09:33] Got a basic understanding what tuition costs would be

[00:09:37] Obviously, Oklahoma was my in-state school. So it was far and away the cheapest

[00:09:42] So that was yeah, that was about it. It was a fun time

[00:09:45] I always say the application process is far and away the most stressful time of residency

[00:09:51] Yeah, would you say that?

[00:09:54] The specialty or the residency application was like

[00:09:59] more

[00:10:00] like difficult and

[00:10:03] Stressful than dental school applications was

[00:10:06] That's a good question. It's I think the comparisons there. I wouldn't say one is significantly more difficult than the other

[00:10:15] The only thing might be that you know when you're going to dental school

[00:10:20] You're going for one out of 100 spots, right? So you have a greater odds

[00:10:25] Assuming you're a good candidate for dental school

[00:10:27] You have a greater odds

[00:10:29] Assuming you're a good qualified applicant to get in. Well in residency like for example University of Oklahoma

[00:10:34] It's one of two spots that you're going for and they might well

[00:10:39] I know that they have something like, you know, 60 80 100 applicants for those two spots every single year

[00:10:45] now, of course, it's widely varying in terms of what the

[00:10:49] profiles are of those people they're applying but the overall competition for those limited spots is

[00:10:56] Harder that being said the actual application process I'd say it's pretty similar, you know, you're gonna have your personal statement

[00:11:03] You're gonna have your letters recommendation. You have your CV

[00:11:06] and then you're always gonna have secondaries at each one of the programs you apply to but

[00:11:12] Organizationally, I'd say it's pretty comparable in terms of degree of difficulty of actually getting in I would say it is greater than dental school

[00:11:20] Yeah, I

[00:11:21] Just to give I don't know I mean like I know you don't have like all the data on every Perry a resident but

[00:11:30] Just for the listeners to have like a little bit of an idea. Like what is a good?

[00:11:35] GPA

[00:11:36] To think like, okay, I can even think about this because I know there's like I mean

[00:11:42] Obviously, there's some residencies that are gonna be more difficult to get into than others

[00:11:47] Where does Perry will land on that on that kind of spectrum and

[00:11:51] What would you think is like? Okay a class rank or a GPA? That's like I can even this can even be on my radar

[00:11:57] Right, and that is that is the question, right?

[00:12:00] You know, are you even gonna have a shot at the end of the day now?

[00:12:03] Each program has their own cutoffs where if you fall below a certain number, they're not gonna look at you

[00:12:09] They they're gonna get the application say thank you for sending me the $65 check. Goodbye

[00:12:15] I

[00:12:16] Don't know what those are on the average for Oklahoma. And again, this is ballparking

[00:12:22] I don't have the exact numbers of what they would use. I would say class rank definitely matters more

[00:12:28] And for those of you there in pass fail down schools, that's where this gets really hard

[00:12:35] They they get evaluated on a completely different

[00:12:38] Way I would say you're looking at probably like

[00:12:44] 34 36 GPA is about as low as you want to go

[00:12:48] As far as class rank, I've seen people

[00:12:52] who were

[00:12:54] Bottom of like top third, you know, so like

[00:12:58] Top third but barely get in more often than not. We're looking at like top quarter at least if not higher

[00:13:05] You know as we have we have externs come through our program all the time and they ask these exact same questions

[00:13:11] Where they say hey, you know, what what do I do? Like, you know, how do I stand out?

[00:13:16] You know really your personal statement helps you a lot once you get beyond those qualifying academic numbers

[00:13:23] At the end of the day if you really think about it

[00:13:26] Period residencies on average are three years. I think for most Dakota approved which are commissioned on dental accreditation programs

[00:13:33] They're three years long and that's three years of sitting in the same room

[00:13:37] Talking to the same people and if you have a person in there who is not particularly pleasant to be around

[00:13:44] Oh boy, it really tanks through and fast and everybody's quality of life goes down

[00:13:49] Really what they're looking for is hey here

[00:13:51] Who is somebody who is gonna graduate write their thesis and be pretty good in clinic and not be an absolute?

[00:13:58] Nightmare to deal with on a day-in day-out basis

[00:14:00] I know that's how we approached our interviews. I'll be honest with you

[00:14:04] I was one of the interviewers for the University of Oklahoma this past year. I didn't even read the academic profile

[00:14:09] I just wanted to look at hey who here is cool to be around who's gonna be fun and who's gonna add something from

[00:14:16] This program in a personality perspective

[00:14:19] Yeah, that's a yeah, that's good to know

[00:14:22] I like the idea of having a person who's a little bit more of a

[00:14:27] Yeah, that's good to know I

[00:14:29] Like that you gave us kind of like that little range of like this is probably where you want to be

[00:14:33] I think that I mean definitely do more research if you're actually wanting to do that program specific

[00:14:40] But I think that's a range. That's pretty

[00:14:42] It's attainable. Like I don't think it's

[00:14:46] Impossible to be in the top quarter like that's definitely something that's attainable and that GPA is pretty attainable

[00:14:52] So it's really all about

[00:14:53] I don't know deciding if

[00:14:56] Perio's the right the right place for you and then maybe making those connections with the perio people at your university

[00:15:03] I'm sure that helped a lot. You mentioned that you had kind of like a mentor

[00:15:06] Which is one of the perio faculty that you dealt with as an undergrad

[00:15:10] Tell me about how I mean, I'm assuming they ended up like writing your letter of rec

[00:15:15] So tell me about kind of like how that helps whenever you're applying

[00:15:20] Yeah, I think you really hit the nail on the head there, you know

[00:15:24] There are pros and cons to staying in the same school for down school and residency

[00:15:29] The con is, you know, you always have that one or two professor professor staff that you just say. Oh my god

[00:15:36] I'm counting down the days so I don't have to see them again

[00:15:38] And then you have to see him again for another three years

[00:15:41] The pro is you just intrinsically are gonna know the ins and outs of the school

[00:15:46] You're gonna know exactly where to go who to talk to

[00:15:51] It helps out tremendously

[00:15:52] But it is a little bit of a mental strain being in the same place a high stress place for seven years in a row

[00:15:59] Yes, they did write my letters of recommendation for me. I

[00:16:03] Actually, we were kind of breaking the rules at that point

[00:16:07] Where I was actually doing a lot of my perio related work in the graduate period on this program when I was

[00:16:12] I would say third year and fourth year in dental school

[00:16:15] So rather than going to our oral surgery department

[00:16:18] Well, I was going to the graduate period on this program to take teeth out or do SRPs

[00:16:22] I did some limited stuff under supervision of our residency director like gingivectomies and whatnot

[00:16:28] So I was kind of starting to climb that ladder before I even got going

[00:16:33] With that they had some expectations for me in terms of like hey, you know

[00:16:37] You want to do this procedure down and grab perio as a?

[00:16:40] dental student

[00:16:42] How are you gonna do it, you know, how are you gonna research how to do it?

[00:16:45] So I kind of had to start residency earlier compared to you know, my classmates just because I wanted to take that next step

[00:16:55] Now at the time I didn't really realize it but you know

[00:16:58] They were definitely judging me as I was taking that next step. They were

[00:17:02] Constantly evaluating was I prepared to do what I wanted to do?

[00:17:05] Was I enthusiastic to do what I was going to do and at the end of the day was I providing good patient care?

[00:17:11] The evaluation process when you are a applicant in your own dental school is constant. It's never off

[00:17:18] And that goes beyond

[00:17:20] Even the perio faculty, you know, your fixed professors will talk with your perio faculty as well

[00:17:26] And vice versa, you know

[00:17:28] You've got to be a good student overall if you want to stay in the school you are applying to

[00:17:35] Yeah, I think that makes a ton of sense

[00:17:39] so

[00:17:41] Would you say like that what were the other were the other programs you looked into you said you mentioned the Air Force One

[00:17:49] Do you think

[00:17:51] Like you would have going if you had to go back. Do you think you would have maybe preferred to go somewhere else?

[00:17:58] I know that's kind of a charged question, but

[00:18:00] Well, you know you're asking me at the end of residency and that is the time to ask

[00:18:04] So, you know, I get back to my main point of I don't believe in overcharging for dental education

[00:18:12] There are certainly residencies out there that I could have done

[00:18:15] You know more of the big procedures the lateral science lifts the guided bone regenerations with very advanced

[00:18:21] Biologics and all the really cool expensive stuff

[00:18:24] Yeah, well, I also would have had to pay a hundred thousand dollars a year to do it

[00:18:30] For my money, you know

[00:18:32] You're all your listeners when they when they choose where they're gonna go to dental school or residency

[00:18:36] The dollar effect does have to come into play

[00:18:40] For my money I would say oh you is I'd say right on average maybe a little bit above average, which is great

[00:18:47] Now a

[00:18:50] Different residency is the Air Force residency and you know, you could also extrapolate to the Navy and Army residencies as well

[00:18:57] Those residencies are paid by virtue of you know, you have to be in the military

[00:19:02] You're getting a salary as you go all the way through it. Of course, there's some

[00:19:05] Military obligations there in terms of going through officer training school and the fact that they are officers while they're doing it

[00:19:12] So they have they they earn their money for sure

[00:19:15] That being said they have a much bigger budget for cool things

[00:19:21] Like I just mentioned in terms of you know patients typically aren't paying in their situations

[00:19:28] So the Air Force residency was one that gosh, I have nothing but good things to say about

[00:19:33] I know a lot of their residents personally and they are just so well prepared

[00:19:37] Now there are some things to consider in terms of applying for the military residencies. Typically they

[00:19:45] You apply a year away. So let's say I got in I got the acceptance this year in 2024

[00:19:52] Well, I'm not starting till 2025

[00:19:56] Which more often than not what ends up happening is these are HPSP health profession scholarship programs

[00:20:01] Members they go through their AGD or they do a year of military service and then they come right back in and they hit the ground running

[00:20:08] There is another degree of difficulty to get into the Air Force or other military scholarship programs or residencies

[00:20:15] But that's that's a whole nother talk for a whole nother day

[00:20:18] Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think we'll talk about Air Force a little bit

[00:20:22] But that's definitely not the main conversation that we that we're gonna have today for sure

[00:20:27] But so let's talk about we've talked about cost a few times

[00:20:32] Can you I mean just based on your

[00:20:36] Research that you did three years ago or four years ago when you're applying

[00:20:40] What would what do you what would you say is like the average cost?

[00:20:44] per year for a perio residency

[00:20:48] If you had to give an average and then what's like the

[00:20:51] What are the extreme costs of the Air Force?

[00:20:54] Yeah, for sure. So the extreme low is always gonna be well

[00:20:58] The paid residency like we talked about through the Air Force other military ones those

[00:21:03] That's that's the gold standard in terms of you're making money. You're not losing money there

[00:21:08] More realistically for the you know non-military people they're listening

[00:21:12] Your in-state school more often than not is gonna be that option

[00:21:16] For me at Oklahoma. I want to say it was something like 12 if not more than 12

[00:21:22] It was something like 12 ish thousand dollars a year to go

[00:21:26] You're not really in the College of Dentistry per se more often than not you're through the Graduate College

[00:21:34] Now a key distinction here that we might as well talk about is there are two different kinds of periodontics programs

[00:21:39] There's a certificate based programs where you have a certificate in periodontics

[00:21:44] And then you have the master's based programs in which you get the master's degree plus a certificate in periodontics

[00:21:51] More often than not the prestige is higher on the master's side

[00:21:56] With that, you know, there is a little bit more research component than the certificate based sides

[00:22:03] So that's a whole nother thing but you know, I would say on average for an out-of-state applicant

[00:22:09] You're probably looking

[00:22:13] closer to

[00:22:14] 25 30,000 there's guy in my class who got into another program that was close to 40,000 a year

[00:22:22] On the high side. I've heard of north of $100,000 a year

[00:22:26] residencies

[00:22:27] I know as you're shaking your head that's it blows your mind a little bit but those are the residents imagine

[00:22:33] I I couldn't either and that's why I didn't apply there

[00:22:37] Those are the residencies that will give you a little bit more flash in terms of wow

[00:22:42] Our facilities are brand new and we do all this cool stuff with our patients. Well, yeah, because the residents are paying for it

[00:22:51] So, yeah overall I would say that's a general range if you're going to your in-state I would sign up for about

[00:22:57] 15,000 a year ish

[00:22:59] If you're going out of state between that 30 to 40 thousand year and if you're doing $100,000 a year

[00:23:05] I hope you have a funding source somewhere else

[00:23:07] Yeah. Yeah, that's that's

[00:23:10] Interesting to know I actually would have assumed it was a little bit more but I guess it makes sense like

[00:23:15] You know, it is a residency. So you're definitely not wanting to be paying like close to dental school tuition numbers

[00:23:22] So it does make sense that it's significantly less. I mean you're basically working so it wouldn't be fair

[00:23:27] I mean the people paying a hundred thousand a year

[00:23:31] I mean, that's a that's a pretty tough sell but at some point I guess I guess it might make sense for some people

[00:23:38] But yeah, that's good. It's good average. So like 15 in-state and like about 25 30 out of state would be a good average

[00:23:46] Yeah, so talk to me. You're at the end of third year

[00:23:51] so

[00:23:52] You obviously went through first year in second year. So talk to me about each year

[00:23:57] kind of like what the transition was going into first year and then like how they split

[00:24:05] Didactic I know you very heavy on didactic you guys do a lot like study a lot of

[00:24:11] Cutting-edge science in the field of periodontics. So tell me about like how they kind of divvy up that workload between each year

[00:24:18] Yeah, and I think you hit the nail on the head there

[00:24:21] Periodontics as a specialty is incredibly literature heavy

[00:24:26] The joke that is always made at least in University of Oklahoma is you don't argue with the periodonts because the periodonts will give you

[00:24:31] all the right facts studies and

[00:24:34] authors

[00:24:35] Most residencies will take their first year as being more of the didactic year

[00:24:41] At Oklahoma, this is where we take our research classes our biostats

[00:24:46] pharmacology

[00:24:47] anatomy

[00:24:49] Pathology among other classes they're in there

[00:24:53] But you also keep the same pair of classes all three years for us. There's a classic literature implant literature current literature

[00:25:01] And then also case presentation which we that that's the hardest one you take that all three years

[00:25:09] Now a little bit difficult when you're a first year you come in and you know

[00:25:12] You're sitting next to a third-year resident who's been through the same class two or three times

[00:25:16] And of course your knowledge isn't going to be up to par with what the person sitting you next is

[00:25:22] It's all about constant improvement over the three years

[00:25:25] but really your first year is didactic and

[00:25:29] Starting to build a basis of what your thesis is going to be if that if you are in a thesis based program

[00:25:35] Your second year is when hopefully you're starting to execute that thesis plan. I did clinical research for mine

[00:25:42] And that did take some time. So, you know getting that started earlier is better than not

[00:25:47] Then also you're getting progressively more exposed to clinic at OU

[00:25:51] You know, we you don't know what you're gonna jump into we had our first years this past year

[00:25:56] They were doing uncoveries simple surgeries right off the bat

[00:25:59] Then they progress throughout the year to when the faculty feels like they can give them more and more difficult procedures

[00:26:06] Second years when you really start to take that jump clinically and then third year, you know

[00:26:10] Hopefully you're wrapping up your thesis sooner than later starting to do the full writing of the thesis

[00:26:16] At some point you do have to defend that thesis which is typically a PowerPoint presentation

[00:26:22] amongst your friends faculty and whatnot

[00:26:27] We have our written boards that happen January of our third year

[00:26:30] Which is a written test usually about three four hundred questions that all residents study pretty pretty hard for

[00:26:39] We also have to give at the University of Oklahoma we have what's called the Southwest Society at Perry Donness

[00:26:45] It's a conference between the University of Oklahoma and Nebraska, Colorado

[00:26:50] UT San Antonio UT Houston and Texas A&M and the Air Force and LSU

[00:26:55] Or the residents come together and present cases that they've done over the previous three years

[00:27:00] That's in the same week as boards. So every single year the residents there are just a little bit more tired than any other week

[00:27:09] Yeah, third year. Hopefully you're starting to find some employment opportunities if you haven't already and close out as

[00:27:15] Smoothly as you possibly can towards the end of May awesome. Yeah

[00:27:20] If you don't mind telling us a little bit about what you did your thesis on is it the same thing you presented on?

[00:27:26] Doing scientific day. Yeah, yeah poster. Yeah, so I got really lucky. I had a resident in front of me. Dr

[00:27:33] Sandra Perrozo who had come up with this study project that was pretty cool about autogenous den grafting

[00:27:40] What that is is you take a tooth out?

[00:27:43] You grind it up and you put it back in the same extraction socket from when it went to came

[00:27:48] Of course, you have to treat with some chemicals whatnot sterilize it demineralize it

[00:27:52] But that serves as the bone graft for the eventual implant that's placed. So what dr. Prozone I did and we came up with the

[00:28:00] IRB and social review board studies

[00:28:04] was we took the teeth out on a hundred and eighteen different extraction sites put the

[00:28:09] Autogenous den graft in measured how the ridge change over time

[00:28:13] In both width and height took a look at radiographically to see if there's any sort of density difference

[00:28:20] And then my portion of the thesis was actually placing implants into those rich preserved sites with the autogenous den graft and seeing how it worked

[00:28:27] with different

[00:28:29] Time points in terms of initial stability and then final stability afterwards to in addition to doing some histological research as well

[00:28:37] Yeah, I think that's I I remember seeing your poster and thinking wow, that's like that's like really neat so yeah

[00:28:45] I just wanted to want to let the listeners

[00:28:48] Just hear about that. So how were your results? Did you?

[00:28:52] What were your findings kind of clinical relevance? They were really really great

[00:28:57] What we found were was that the autogenous den grafted sites lost less

[00:29:03] Ridge width and height as compared to the conventionally used freeze-dried bone allograft. That's allograft for those of you who don't know

[00:29:11] We also found that there was no difference in terms of implant stability both at the initial time point and final time point

[00:29:17] all this just goes to show that

[00:29:20] Autogenous den isn't necessarily I'm not gonna say it's superior to what the conventional bone grafting techniques we have are

[00:29:27] But it certainly is a realistic option

[00:29:31] And one that warrants much more study

[00:29:34] We were one of the first worldwide to really do this in a randomized clinical trial method

[00:29:40] Of course once you do it once everybody has to take their own crack at it and see if they get the same results

[00:29:46] That's how it works. But we really feel like we set the stage to at least look at this as being a great option

[00:29:52] The big benefit here for a lot of your listeners who might be saying hey, so what?

[00:29:57] Well, the cost of getting an average amount of bone graft is something like two three hundred bucks

[00:30:05] Well, the cost of doing autogenous den grafting for a site is about 60

[00:30:09] So you save a lot of money?

[00:30:11] Hopefully some that gets passed on to the patient as well. So we you know decrease barriers to care

[00:30:17] We get more people into adequate prosthesis than we would have otherwise

[00:30:22] But it's really exciting I think it's something that will it's gonna explode and the dentistry scene

[00:30:28] And it'll be really interesting to see where it goes from here

[00:30:32] Yeah. Yeah, I think that's really cool. I mean cost savings and if it has

[00:30:38] Equal to maybe even superior clinical, you know results then why not?

[00:30:43] so I

[00:30:45] Appreciate you sharing that with us and I did want to talk about a little bit more about the Air Force

[00:30:51] So you did the HPSP scholarship for dental school?

[00:30:56] and then but you decided to kind of pay out-of-pocket for

[00:31:00] Perio residency, so talk to me about the HPSP scholarship

[00:31:05] How how the experience has been?

[00:31:08] You know, I like you you technically in the Air Force, but you haven't done the officer training yet

[00:31:14] so talk to me a little bit about that and

[00:31:17] Yeah, just just walk me through that and then I'd also like to hear why you chose to pay out-of-pocket for

[00:31:23] Perio residency as well. Sure

[00:31:26] So starting off of my decision-making process, you know, I knew at the forefront of dental school. I was gonna have to pay for everything

[00:31:34] So I did the math and I wasn't comfortable with the numbers I was gonna have to pay in the long run

[00:31:39] So I started seeking. Hey, how am I gonna pay for this?

[00:31:42] You know, how can I bring this number down to make it more manageable for me in the long run?

[00:31:47] And again, that's just my personal philosophy

[00:31:50] So I applied for an HPSP three-year scholarship through the Air Force

[00:31:56] The way you do that is you've got you connected to a health profession scholarship recruiter

[00:32:00] There are some usually major cities, although they will respond to email

[00:32:05] Of course the Air Force does it the Navy does it the army does it there are different packages for each of the three

[00:32:12] Last I checked the Navy and Army offered a pretty sizable sign-on bonus as well

[00:32:20] But they also offer more spots the Air Force at least amongst with the information

[00:32:25] I was given was a little bit tougher just in terms of number of spots that was offered in my year

[00:32:30] I want to say it was 78

[00:32:32] But that number is no doubt changed since then as it's been a few years and world events change over time

[00:32:40] So with that, you know the health professions scholarship program recruiter took the reins and really helped me through all the paperwork

[00:32:47] There is a lot of paperwork to do it is a government institution. There's gonna be a lot of paperwork

[00:32:54] With that the major component was the medical form

[00:32:57] I was really lucky in that. I've never really had any significant surgeries, you know

[00:33:01] I've never broken a bone had an ACL tear what have you?

[00:33:04] I had a good friend of mine in dental school who was applying for the Air Force as well

[00:33:08] But he had torn his ACL in soccer

[00:33:10] Now it was completely possible for him to get that scholarship and he was well qualified to do so

[00:33:15] But he had to get medical clearance, which is somewhat of a lengthy process

[00:33:21] To be honest at the end of dental school

[00:33:24] To be honest at the end of dental school

[00:33:26] He came up to me and said hey

[00:33:27] I wish I had followed through and you know fought through all the paperwork to get the the scholarship program, but that's that's an aside

[00:33:35] Yeah, then from there, you know, you have to do a interview with typically a lieutenant colonel

[00:33:39] Usually that's how it goes. I had to drive to Wichita Falls, which is in Texas to do that

[00:33:46] From there. It's just your standard interview

[00:33:47] I wouldn't say it's any different than any other interview the listeners from this podcast are gonna experience

[00:33:54] A lot of his why Air Force they always want people that are gonna stay in for the longest

[00:33:59] But they're also I would say appreciate honesty and saying

[00:34:03] My my take on that was I just don't know

[00:34:06] I would love for the Air Force to be my long-term career, but I don't know I have to experience it in order to

[00:34:13] Make any sort of a definitive statement. They seem to like that. Okay

[00:34:17] Because it's the truth

[00:34:19] Then you know upon acceptance I had to get formally commissioned. I did that with a local ROTC group in Oklahoma City

[00:34:26] It was a very neat ceremony. It was actually very well done where I had to take the oath

[00:34:31] in front of the ROTC cadets

[00:34:35] And then from there

[00:34:37] Technically, I was not technically I was in the military. There is no ifs ands or buts about that

[00:34:43] Now the recruiters would be the first ones to tell you that the likelihood of you being

[00:34:48] called into military service during dental school is

[00:34:52] Incredibly low to the point that I wouldn't even consider it to be a rational thought process

[00:34:58] So I would go on active duty

[00:35:03] It was a campus tour as they called it for about 45 days a year

[00:35:09] And that was just more of a logistical purpose

[00:35:11] But on the whole, you know really what they're gonna tell you is we want you to study as hard as you can

[00:35:17] While you're on the scholarship. We want to bother you as little as we absolutely possibly can

[00:35:22] There is some paperwork that you have to do throughout the year, but really pretty minimal after that

[00:35:27] In fact the paperwork that you are typically doing is usually reimbursements for things like

[00:35:33] loops or textbooks

[00:35:35] As that's all fully reimbursable health insurance was another one

[00:35:38] I really didn't pay for virtually anything during dental school

[00:35:42] And in fact, I was getting a stipend that was all part about thirty one thousand dollars a year

[00:35:49] during the whole of the

[00:35:51] HPSP program

[00:35:55] So it was great I was I was living a pretty decent life all the way through dental school still am

[00:36:02] Now upon graduation I

[00:36:04] Made it known to my superior officers saying hey, I want to do perio

[00:36:08] I did apply for the Air Force program

[00:36:12] But I had at the end. I got matched to Oklahoma

[00:36:17] Now the military ones are non match. So they gave me a separate. I was on a waitlist. I think I was second and behind

[00:36:24] So I told my commanding officers this and they said hey, you know, we need people to be on the waiting list

[00:36:30] So I told my commanding officers this and they said hey, you know, we need Perry Donnas in the program

[00:36:36] But we can't offer you a spot in the Air Force residency. We're okay with you doing it in a

[00:36:43] Private or I'd say public school for the next three years and we'll see you at the end of that

[00:36:49] Now they did give me the option to have it all paid for but at least for my money

[00:36:54] The actual

[00:36:56] perio program was just not expensive enough for me to ask for them to do that and

[00:37:01] That really got back to the basis of I would love I really

[00:37:05] Truthfully would love to stay in the Air Force for the rest of my career and retire with the Air Force

[00:37:09] I just don't know what that life is gonna look like yet

[00:37:13] So I chose not to take the three-year extension on my contract because of that

[00:37:19] Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense and I mean with tuition being around

[00:37:25] 15,000 a year. It's like yeah

[00:37:28] I would probably would have made the same decision as you just like I'll pay for it that way if

[00:37:33] I decide the Air Force isn't my long-term home

[00:37:35] Then I don't have to you know, add an extra three years to my to my kind of service

[00:37:41] So yeah, I think that all makes a lot of sense

[00:37:44] So

[00:37:46] Did you technically or are you still in the Air Force right now or like even though you weren't on the scholarship?

[00:37:54] Yeah, I should be really clear about that

[00:37:56] From the moment I commissioned and accepted that scholarship. I have been in the Air Force. There has been no breakage

[00:38:03] I've been on different

[00:38:05] Statuses, you know since you know when I was on HPSP, I was different stats from when I was in residency

[00:38:12] But very much so no I've been in the Air Force

[00:38:15] Every single day since I have commissioned. It's just they've I

[00:38:19] Can't say enough good things about the Air Force

[00:38:21] I think their whole mentality in terms of how I've been treated all the way through has been phenomenal

[00:38:27] They really did stick to their word in terms of when they said hey, we we don't want to be a bother

[00:38:33] We want you to you know, do everything you can in school to be as good as you can be. We're here in a supporting

[00:38:39] Way they have they've stuck to that they've done great even as I've

[00:38:45] Come into being an imperio as I mentioned, I'm friends with a lot of the Air Force residents down in San Antonio

[00:38:52] Oh, they're great. They could not be nicer

[00:38:55] I have had nothing but good interactions with the Air Force from the start to the finish right as we speak right now

[00:39:03] Awesome. Yeah

[00:39:05] Do you so I know you haven't?

[00:39:08] actually started

[00:39:10] Being a dentist for the Air Force yet

[00:39:13] But what do you know or what is your expectation?

[00:39:16] Of like how the next few years will look like for you in the Air Force, especially starting off

[00:39:22] Yeah, and that is a good question. So

[00:39:26] Here in the next few weeks. I'm gonna go to officer training school commonly known as OTS. It's five-week program

[00:39:32] We go through with you know, some other military members, but usually in the five-week program

[00:39:37] We're looking at people like lawyers nurses

[00:39:41] MDs DOS and of course dentists of all residencies in general deaths

[00:39:47] In that it's pretty well documented what OTS looks like they have a nice website going through week by week in terms of what they do

[00:39:56] I've heard and in my own research

[00:39:59] Found that it seems like you know

[00:40:01] The first couple weeks are tough as they get you up to speed with what military is and what the expectations are

[00:40:07] But on the whole I think people actually

[00:40:09] Really respond nicely and say that it actually ends up being a pretty good time when it's all said and done

[00:40:13] They they seem to make good memories and make good friends down in OTS

[00:40:18] Then from there, I'll go directly to my assigned base

[00:40:21] Which at this time is looking like it's gonna be Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas, Nevada

[00:40:27] and

[00:40:28] Then from there, you know, I'll be honest with you. I'm not completely sure. I know it's a teaching base

[00:40:33] There's an AGD program there I will have some level of clinical responsibilities as well in addition importantly to my officer

[00:40:42] responsibilities

[00:40:44] So TBD to be honest with you as far as what the future will look like

[00:40:50] Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that

[00:40:52] Maybe we'll have to do a follow-up to check in on

[00:40:56] your experience at

[00:40:59] Officer training school and maybe talk about what clinic and stuff has looked like for you

[00:41:04] Maybe reach back out to you in a few months and we can get a better idea for that

[00:41:07] For anybody interested in the HPSP scholarship. I think that would be just interesting for them to

[00:41:12] To get maybe a little bit of an idea about for sure

[00:41:15] Yeah, you know and for those of you that are thinking about doing HPSP

[00:41:20] I've you've heard me speak lonely about it so far. I'm gonna say it again

[00:41:24] I think it was one of the better decisions I've ever made

[00:41:27] I have so many classmates who they kind of gave me a little bit of grief when I first signed it saying

[00:41:33] Oh gosh, that's three years. You know, that's that's such a long time

[00:41:38] well most you know, we were 22 when when those comments were getting made when you're

[00:41:44] 29 as I am now three years is nothing. It's nothing and especially when your trade-off is

[00:41:50] Financial, you know success in terms of not really having incredible amounts of student loan debt

[00:41:56] Having a lot of flexibility and what I can do if I decide to stay in with the Air Force or not

[00:42:04] The amount of stress it has taken off it has been worth it in spades

[00:42:10] Yeah, all right, I

[00:42:13] Appreciate the perspective on the Air Force for sure

[00:42:16] one kind of follow-up or

[00:42:18] Ending question that I have for you

[00:42:21] back on the on the subject of you know, you being a period honest and

[00:42:26] The surgical training that you've received

[00:42:29] And we've kind of talked about this in clinic briefly

[00:42:32] But what do you think so if for example somebody like me?

[00:42:37] Decides residency is not gonna work out for whatever reason or it's not for them

[00:42:42] Or it's not for them, but they're very interested in surgery. They're willing to go take a bunch of CE do whatever it takes

[00:42:50] What do you think your philosophy is at the moment about like what kind of should be reserved?

[00:42:56] For maybe the specialists and what should be the limits within reason?

[00:43:01] Yeah, and that's a question we get all the time. You know, I never want to be the specialist who tells Gerald s

[00:43:06] Hey, don't do that

[00:43:08] Because inevitably, you know, you come off as like a overbearing parent which is not how specialists want to come off ever

[00:43:16] What I would say is just be smart, please be smart, you know, I've had so many classmates that have

[00:43:23] gone in a little bit too deep and

[00:43:25] Had some pretty severe results that have resulted in I mean

[00:43:30] EMS visits and lawsuits that you would appropriate to that level of severity

[00:43:36] For me and I can only tell you what I've recommended for my own

[00:43:40] I'm gonna do myself is I believe before you think about doing anything surgically

[00:43:46] You have got to have such a sound basis in terms of restorative dentistry

[00:43:53] Really it's it's the it's the bread and butter of dentistry that people forget that ultimately sinks them in the long run

[00:44:02] particularly occlusion

[00:44:04] For those of you who want to do implants you had got to have an extremely high level

[00:44:10] knowledge of what occlusion is and how to fix it when

[00:44:15] 99% of your patients come in with it at less than ideal occlusal scheme

[00:44:21] You have no idea the amount of implants that are negatively affected

[00:44:26] because of occlusion

[00:44:29] Because of occlusion

[00:44:32] For me I'm gonna do a lot of occlusion based CE at least in the first few years before I really start to take my

[00:44:38] own surgical CE courses to the next level

[00:44:45] Ultimately, yeah, the the basis of having sound restorative dentistry is number one and then from there

[00:44:53] Listening to your specialist friends and just having honest conversations to them saying hey listen

[00:44:58] I think I might want to start placing an implant here, too

[00:45:02] Where do you think is a safe zone for me more often than not?

[00:45:06] The specialist will be somewhat responsive to that and say hey listen. I

[00:45:11] Hear you. I think this is the zone of the mouth where you want to be looking

[00:45:15] but if it crosses over in this area or

[00:45:19] it the position patient presents with this kind of medical history or

[00:45:24] This kind of a restorative occlusal scheme you gotta get that out of your office as soon as you can

[00:45:30] And you need to trust your specialist when they when they say that

[00:45:34] because there it was three years of learning that the

[00:45:38] nitty-gritty of these details and

[00:45:41] There are cases that unless you really know what you're looking at are

[00:45:46] significantly more difficult than they seem so

[00:45:49] For me I always say implants should not be your first thing out of dental school

[00:45:55] They should be in your first decade out of dental school

[00:46:00] Really try to start with the more nitty-gritty stuff with occlusion basis restorative basis

[00:46:06] what you'll find is you'll be making a lot of money because you have a good basis in those CE courses and

[00:46:13] When you do try and progress into the more surgical aspects down the road you'll get far better results because of that knowledge directly

[00:46:21] Yeah, I can appreciate that for sure. I mean I personally have

[00:46:26] interacted with some general dentists who took those surgical leaps

[00:46:32] Earlier in their careers and they'll they'll even say like maybe maybe I was a little overconfident

[00:46:38] I didn't probably end up having probably a little bit more failures than I maybe should have otherwise

[00:46:43] I don't know. I think a lot of a lot of implant stuff

[00:46:48] can be done by a

[00:46:51] Well trained general dentist who's taken the time to to get the training for it

[00:46:58] however, like you said, it's always a good idea to

[00:47:01] Just be on the same page as as your specialist

[00:47:04] Especially if you if you plan on calling them when things go go wrong

[00:47:10] Right, you know

[00:47:11] I mean the the classic example that I dealt with with my classmates was that

[00:47:18] One minute they're watching baseball in the back of class during you know

[00:47:22] You're fixed and removable classes and then the next month they're out there trying to restore four on four

[00:47:29] You know dentures and implants and then that goes about as well as you think it's a total nightmare

[00:47:35] My greater point here is just don't take the big jump early on have a progression. It is a pyramid

[00:47:42] And every single one of your listeners are going to dental school and their professors are telling them the same thing

[00:47:49] We know that

[00:47:50] But all too often we try and take that double step too quickly and then you pay for it in the long run

[00:47:57] I

[00:47:59] Think you'll find that you'll make more money if you take the progressive steps up

[00:48:05] Then the big jumps up

[00:48:08] You'll have the people who are in your class posting on Instagram with these mammoth cases

[00:48:13] And you'll sit there and you'll say gosh, that should be me. Well, here's the funny thing

[00:48:18] Usually they stop posting after about six months because those first cases they start posting start failing

[00:48:25] Meanwhile, you're not having to deal with the fallout of you know, a six implant hybrid denture failing in your hands

[00:48:33] You having to redo it all on your own dime the patient being mad at you lighting up your Google reviews. You're over there

[00:48:41] Giving really good restorative work really good occlusal guards really good occlusal adjustments

[00:48:45] And then someday you jump into that and you can handle it and you don't have to pay for it all again

[00:48:51] There is a progression to dentistry

[00:48:55] Yeah, yep

[00:48:57] I appreciate kind of your your advice on that. Is there anything else any other pieces of advice?

[00:49:03] you'd like to give out to the listeners whether it be

[00:49:06] You know pertaining to

[00:49:09] Air Force Perry or residency dental dental school being a dental student anything anything you can think of

[00:49:16] Yeah, you know, I mean I talked a little bit about my own financial mentality

[00:49:20] Everybody's gonna be a little bit different. Everybody's financial perspective is gonna be a little bit different

[00:49:25] I encourage you that no matter what you do have a plan

[00:49:29] If you are comfortable with taking on those big debt numbers, hey, that's okay. That's your decision

[00:49:35] But know what you're getting into it in advance

[00:49:38] So that you can have a plan and execute that plan as quickly as possible

[00:49:42] And you're not going to be sitting at the end of dental school saying oh, geez

[00:49:46] I'm a hundred thousand dollars of past where I thought I was gonna be and I don't really know how to deal with it

[00:49:51] That's critical

[00:49:54] When you're in dental school, there's definitely the you know, you're drinking out of a firehose

[00:49:59] You're trying as hard as you can to learn everything you can and let's be honest. You just can't you know

[00:50:06] I'd always say prioritize the bread and butter of dentistry

[00:50:10] Recognize that as soon as you can and if you can't recognize that go talk to your you know

[00:50:15] Faculty that you trust and have faith in say hey listen

[00:50:18] What do I need to be focusing on here? You know, what's what's important for me as a dentist in the long term?

[00:50:24] Establish those basis as soon as you possibly can and build upon them build the pyramid afterwards

[00:50:30] Clinically, you know, you need to take every single repetition as seriously as you possibly can

[00:50:36] Every perio maintenance is important because you never know they might have a root canal

[00:50:42] It needs to be done or they might have a cavity. It needs to be filled

[00:50:45] The more you're in your clinical chair the better

[00:50:48] The people that get into trouble are the ones who are very comfortable with going to the pool

[00:50:52] All summer long and not seeing patients for two weeks at a time during their second and third years

[00:50:57] Those are the people that have issues to come

[00:51:00] Come the end of graduation time

[00:51:02] For those of you who want to do residency

[00:51:05] Reach out to both your school and other schools and set up set up visits, you know

[00:51:11] See what a day in the life is as much as you possibly can and don't stop shadowing, you know the private practitioners

[00:51:17] They're just as important too. And really you got to know what your long-term goal is of hey, you know, maybe

[00:51:24] The life of an orthodontist is miserable to you and you don't know that until you go and you shadow the orthodontist and say oh

[00:51:30] My god, this is not what I want to do at all or vice versa

[00:51:35] Getting your name out there is also important to

[00:51:39] Yeah, I think that's pretty much about it as far as far as the era Air Force scholarship, you know

[00:51:44] I endorse it emphatically and I wouldn't take anything

[00:51:48] I said here today as being true fact as things do change in the military pretty frequently

[00:51:54] I would encourage you to reach out to your local health profession scholarship recruiter whether it be army

[00:51:59] Navy or Air Force and get more exact information from them as they will tell you the right answers

[00:52:05] And they will tell you the 2024 version

[00:52:08] Yeah, awesome. There's definitely been a lot of good nuggets of information in this podcast. I really appreciate you taking the time

[00:52:16] to record with me

[00:52:18] For anybody if anybody wanted to reach out to you directly with some follow-up questions about this episode

[00:52:24] Is there a good way for them to do that? Yeah, I'd say my email account probably be best

[00:52:30] J cor be eight nine at gmail.com would be great and feel free

[00:52:35] I'm open for questions from everybody. I'm not a very formal guy

[00:52:40] Just say hey John. I've got a question. That's fine

[00:52:44] Awesome. Well, John, thank you for taking the time out. I

[00:52:49] Wish you the best in the coming steps. Congrats again on finishing up the the MS

[00:52:55] And we'll catch all the listeners on the next episode. Thank you very good. Thanks for having me