Very Dental: The Lie That We Need with Dr. Dawn Grimes

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a production of the Very Dental Podcast Network. This is the Very Dental Podcast.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Very Dental Podcast, where you'll find entertaining and relevant conversations with visionaries, clinicians, and your friends in the dental space. Now here's your host, Dr. Alan Mead.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Very Dental people, welcome back to another episode of the Very Dental Podcast. My name is Alan Mead. I'm the host of this show.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Joining me again, as always, Dr. Dawn Grimes. Dawn, how you doing?

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm good. And you?

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm okay. I'm okay. I can't complain too much.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So I just got back from riding at my favorite place to ride my mountain bike.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was one of those things where it's going to bring us in so perfectly what we're going to talk about.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know what we're talking about today, by the way.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I will lead you. I will lead you.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So I have a Monday, and since I don't work on Monday and Fridays clinically, the idea was I would spend more time on the podcast.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, you know, the listeners can judge whether or not they can tell if I have been doing that or not.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_00]: In any case, so I don't work clinically, which means I don't have to get up super early and drive to Saginaw and drive back and blah, blah, blah.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I take the kids to school and I pick them up and I do. I like it. The routine's really good.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And the routine is such that I have this window of time. If I'm not recording with someone or even if I am recording or if I don't have a doctor's appointment or I don't have a – I can potentially have a block of time that I can do something.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And generally, that something is to go ride because that's what I like to do.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's fall, so it's getting colder.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So I dropped the kids off and I came home and immediately Deb had – she wanted me to help move some hay for something and I had to take care of the ducks.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And in my mind, I'm like, okay, I'm podcasting with Dawn at noon and I'm figuring this window of time because I know it's about 45 minutes there and 45 minutes back to get to Claire.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, I don't know how long it'll take. Like the shortest amount of time I can ride there if I'm going to do the full 10 miles is about – so I'm like working everything backwards.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Because this is how my life is. I'm constantly working things backwards because it's, as we have discussed, the lie that we need.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Every time I think when I switch to this thing, I'll have more time. When I switch to this thing, things will get easier. We've talked about this before.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And so like when my kids started back to school, it seemed like in the summer everything was just freaking crazy and at least will it be at school, blah, blah, blah.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, nothing of the sort. It is as crazy or more crazy. Now, okay, I'll give you my next one.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, Sean's going to be done marching. Next week will be the last football game. So that will lighten things up.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not going to lighten things up. It's not actually going to lighten things up.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: No, something else will come until that time.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, exactly. Guess what? I can name it. I can name it. Wednesday evenings are marching band rehearsal that I have to get him there and get him back.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Like people listening going, why doesn't this child drive yet? Good question. Good question.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you remember? Because I paid off my dental practice, I think in 2020.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was 2020 or 2021. I don't remember which.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But I was so excited. And remember I was telling our friends, I was like, I'm paying off my dental practice.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I won't have that payment every month, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And someone said, you're never going to see any of that money.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're not wrong.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I can truly say like I look at the like the practice finances now and I go, how did I ever even make that payment?

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not because it's not like there's this extra money.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_01]: There's just not.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_01]: What the hell?

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But yes.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, okay.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So the story I tell myself now.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So my son is going to, my youngest son will allegedly, and I'm pretty sure he won't fail out.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_00]: He's going to finish high school in 2028.

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And my home loan and my office building loan will mature in 2028.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we've, we've talked about all the cool things that we'll be able to do.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Jacob will be graduating.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_00]: We won't be paying for this stuff.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, you know, you know exactly.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: You'll be paying for college or an apartment or something.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_00]: The timing is amazing, isn't it?

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And we've not done super well putting money away for it.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So guess what?

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Guess what?

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Get a scholarship, Jacob.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You're never going to see any of that money.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, I don't remember which of our friends said it to me.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what's so funny.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember who said it.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to have to think about that really hard.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't matter because they all have experienced it.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I know.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's exactly, but, and they were so dead right.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But, but seriously, in that moment, like I was feeling so accomplished because it took me a long time to pay off my practice.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I had to refinance it at some point.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I became, I went from having a partner to being a solo practitioner.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Like things changed around and I, it took me some time, but yeah.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was so happy and I wasn't allowed to have even a minute of that happiness.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I know.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I know.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and so the smart money is on not ever planning for that, not ever thinking it.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Cause the other thing is, the worst part is when you have that money in your spent in your brain or that time.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh God.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like you had a plan for it.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Or the time you get back when, you know, when marching band is over, I'm like, oh wait, I remember literally a week won't go by.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And guess what starts at the exact same time?

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Jazz band.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So, and, and, and mind you, I love that Sean plays in so many different ensembles and actually thank God he loves it right now too.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_00]: If he decided he didn't want to play in quite so many ensembles, I'd probably be disappointed on some level, but there'd also be like, well, he's got a lot of them anyhow.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_00]: One of those things, but, but the bottom line is he, he does a lot of this stuff and he doesn't drive.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So, and I tend to like being the guy I shoot now.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So for marching band, I volunteered to be the, the announcer for marching band and come to realize, you know, when it's a school function, if you volunteer, guess what?

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: You're doing it.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not like, well, I'll put this out for consideration.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_00]: If you volunteer, you're, you've already done it.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, like he didn't, there's no competition.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_00]: He didn't even contact me before he just assumed it was, he just assumed I was doing it.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I mentioned it last year and I hadn't heard anything from him.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, that's weird.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't heard it.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: He just assumed I was doing it.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It was one of those things where I'm like, oh, I guess I'm doing it.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I literally got, so there's another ensemble that Sean plays in that he loves.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a Monday night thing.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a community, like a community brass band.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And I am now their announcer as well because they saw the picture of me announcing.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So like, yeah, it doesn't really, and I, all these things I have no resentment against as much as, but it does.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm paying for it in time.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just, there's like, in the same way that that money that you never saw after you finished paying your practice.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, as soon as I spend that time that I'm allegedly going to get back before I ever have it.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It's crazy.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So why do we, why is that the lie that we have to tell ourselves when this gets, when X gets done?

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think otherwise we'd just lay on the floor.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe, maybe.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what I mean?

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think you just give up.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that maybe we need to examine our lives for how much time is wasted.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my God.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I do think that there's something in that.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I know, but like we always go, I don't have time.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have time.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's, you know, a couple truths there.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_01]: One is that you always have time for the things you want to do.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a priorities thing.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the other thing is that we never really look at how much time we waste.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Or how many things like, you know, we say we've done that.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, for someone like you, the volunteering to do the band thing, like, I know you love that.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's probably someone who's stuck doing this sort of volunteer thing that they hate doing it.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But they've been doing it for so long.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: They, they just, it's part of their routine.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_01]: They're not even thinking about that.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_01]: They could probably reclaim.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: You could reclaim that three hours.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Or like wasted time, conversations that don't need to be had or, you know, just the, we have a lot of things in our routine that we could probably trim.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And create more time.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But we're not really good at that.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_00]: How long, how long, how long is your commute to work from where you live?

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I live 600 feet from my office.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's a pretty quick commute.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's a pretty quick commute.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll give you that.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So no, I don't really have a commute.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So, so, okay.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So, so let's talk a little bit about wasted time and let's talk about a little bit about, a little bit about wasted time over a period of 27 years, something like that.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a 40 minute one way commute to work.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm in the car for, you know, approximately an hour and a half.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And the reality is I, I, I leave for lunch and sometimes we'll go.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So I, you know, I'm, I'm two hours in the car every work day, essentially.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Think about that.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, what's, what's staggering about that.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: What's staggering about that is it's, it doesn't feel like that much of a waste of time any given day.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, like we're talking months, years added up.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You're like, that's, I mean, like that's a huge portion of my life spent driving.

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, mind you.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't examine.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a sunk cost.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't examine routines.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a sunk cost.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, that's what we have to do.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Except it's not really, of course, what we have to do because let's be honest.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I, there's, there are, there have been dental practices that have come up for sale or I could, in a place that, that's closer.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_00]: If I wanted to do that.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I, I mean, I really haven't looked hard at that, but I, I will occasionally look at that commute and go, God, I mean, I'm, my life is like just running through my hands on some level.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And part of it, part of it is I compare it to the fact that during the week I can't seem to get, now it's getting dark too.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_00]: There's another one.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_00]: The whole freaking dark thing.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you think yourself, well, you know, I'm not, life isn't really happening unless it's light outside.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, clearly it is, but, but I mean, it is a little harder to ride your bike or whatever.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not impossible.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I've done it.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And when I was more committed to it, it was something I actually looked forward to, but, but no, you're right.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_00]: We do, we, we waste a lot of time and we also, we sink a lot of time.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_00]: In other words, I don't even think about the fact that I'm driving, you know, an hour and a half a day to work.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I know that never even crosses my mind.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Cause that's what I have to do according to me.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, but that's, I mean, that's the majority of the human condition.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't like to look at life and we like the lies.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't like to look at the realities and we certainly don't examine our routines.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and changing is, changing is really a lot harder than, than staying the same.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Even, even when staying the same sucks, right?

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Even when staying the same isn't great.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just that taking that, we get so ingrained in our patterns that taking that step off

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: the normal path is really hard.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Even when it would be so much better, but it's the, it can be the hardest, hardest thing.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It's crazy.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, funny, this thing, we were talking about the lie you need.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_01]: This just came up with a conversation with a friend last night and I have to find this

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_01]: because do you remember, um, in the matrix?

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So I love those movies.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they're good.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_01]: They actually just showed those movies.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I never saw the second two.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I just saw the first one.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you're kidding.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Those are, Alan, these are amazing movies and they're not action movies.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Like if you think the matrix is an action movie, you missed the whole damn thing.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, the, the matrix is a Dharma film.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but the, um, there's a character in the matrix who sells out his friends.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So the, um, the, the people who are awake, right?

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So cipher, but do you remember the conditions under which he did that?

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_01]: They show him and he's in the matrix and he's eating a steak.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And he, he basically says, and I sent this quote to my friend yesterday.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_01]: He says, I know this steak doesn't exist.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I know that when I put it in my mouth, the matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and delicious.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_01]: After nine years, do you know what I realized?

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Ignorance is bliss.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Not wrong.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Because there are days, there are days and there are times when we don't even care that

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a lie.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We want the lie.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I just want the steak.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, there are days where you just want the steak.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Because, you know, I mean, living present and changing behavior, patterned behavior is,

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: is difficult.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's work.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, it, I can tell you from personal experience, it's work worth doing.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: It's worth it.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_01]: It's so worth it, but it's very easy to get in a routine.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And that routine also makes us feel like we have control in our lives, right?

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_01]: We've talked about that before too, but it's very easy to get in that routine and then say,

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I just don't have time.

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Instead of like reflecting on your routine and going, well, I probably didn't need to

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_01]: spend an hour and a half looking at stupid TikTok videos.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I could have spent that reading that book I've been wanting to get to or calling my mother

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_01]: when I was supposed to do that.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Or, you know what I mean?

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_01]: There's so many things where you're like, oh, I don't have time going to the gym, getting

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: that bike ride in.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_01]: We waste a lot of time, but it's so difficult for us to actually look at that because sometimes

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_01]: we just want the steak.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of times we just want the steak, but also there is a, there is a level of, okay.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_00]: The fact that you mentioned TikTok videos, TikTok is not my weakness.

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Instagram is my weakness.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the same essentially.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have the TikTok.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have the TikTok and I do have Instagram, but I'm proud to say I waste very little time

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_01]: there.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just, it doesn't, it doesn't appeal to me.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_01]: It sucks me.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_01]: There's something missing there for me.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Every now and again, I will scroll on there for a little bit.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Mostly I'm the victim of my teenage daughter trying to show me an hour's worth of videos

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: on these apps at like midnight when I want to go to bed.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_00]: My kids, my kids don't do TikTok or Instagram, but they are, they are, it's a, it's a constant

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_00]: barrage of YouTube videos.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So like YouTube, everyone thinks of YouTube is not having the same.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_00]: YouTube also has the algorithm that feeds, feeds your brain what you want it.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But the reality is, is that I think, I think one of the reasons that, that, that TikTok and

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Instagram are so appealing is, is that it is feeding ourselves the lie.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_00]: We continue to, cause, cause I, I mean, I know that it's easy to say this, but I, there's

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: so much on Instagram and TikTok that's just not real.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_00]: If anyone, you know, like occasionally you'll come across a video and it's like, um, Instagram

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_00]: versus real life.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, it's like these, you know, you'll see a shot of this, this beautiful influencer

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_00]: walking into, you know, in some, some amazing waterfall.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just the, the, the cinematography is beautiful.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And then, and then it'll show like the actual waterfall full of a bunch of people and garbage

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and, and, you know, and, and the, the, the influencer trying to pose the shot just right

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and all that.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, that's, that is real life.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_00]: But, but I don't want that.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I want the, I want, I want to compare my life with the, the beautiful framed up shot that

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_00]: they put it so I can feel bad about it or whatever.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Or, I mean, the reality is like, like all the dentistry up on Instagram, so much of it

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: is like, I think to myself, I'm like, that's not what teeth look like in my office.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_00]: They, people come in with, you know, with bombed out teeth and horror in, in like,

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_00]: everything's so clean and beautiful and well lit and all this stuff.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, God, that's not what it looks like in my office.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, because they're cutting up, they're cutting up perfectly healthy teeth.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sometimes, sometimes.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you have to, that's, I, most of the Instagram type dentistry I have seen is like,

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_01]: one, it's very poorly done dentistry.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And I know no one who's watching this that isn't a dentist realizes this because they

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_01]: see those white chiclets when it's done and they're like, oh, they look good.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they don't, they don't know anything about the health of the teeth and all of

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: the bullshit that's going on.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But most of the Instagram dentistry I have seen is, um, perfectly healthy young people

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: getting their teeth all cut up.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: That is a problem.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Smithson, Smithson complained about that a lot.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like, why are these young?

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_00]: But on the other hand, I mean, I'm seeing.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Because they want dentures when they're 40.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Apparently.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you and I know the reality of this, but shame on these people.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: They, it's crazy to me.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It's crazy to me.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a, there's a, um, a person that I do like their posts.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: It's Jerry RDH.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: He's a hygienist and he's funny.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think his page is even called something humor.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It is.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm ashamed that I don't know.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: He's pretty good.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but yes, I love him, but he's been on a little bit of a crusade lately calling

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: people out on this bad dentistry.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, what, what's actually really good about that is, is that cause since no one's

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_00]: doing it, since no one's calling anyone out, everyone's just, just clapping their hands

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and stuff.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's pretty great.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_00]: That's pretty great.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_00]: It is.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I will, I'll put a link.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I just found his, he's, he is very funny.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_00]: That's really actually.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: He's so funny.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_00]: He puts the videos he puts up are very good, but also he's showing a lot of stuff.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I, I guess I'll put that link up there.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, he's been showing a lot of the videos.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Those, it's probably very much in his realm cause he does this, but, um, of like young

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_01]: people who are showing off their new and I look at them, I think they look so shitty.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Like this is the other thing.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: The aesthetics change over time, right?

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Like people like different things.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I think these crowns.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Some, some of the stuff on his page.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh wow.

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It's been, I've seen, there are some really excellent dentists who put up excellent dentistry,

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_00]: but the, but.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Some of our friends.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: But what I'm going to tell you.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But also like, let's plug this though.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Like someone like, like Melissa Zettler.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: She does very beautiful cosmetic work and she's very conservative.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: She's not cutting up people's teeth.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_00]: She takes, she takes more CE than any three people you know too.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: She, she is, she is serious about the crown.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And she's applying it well.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is the thing I don't, you know, I, the, the, the teenage mind goes to TikTok

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and sees the white chicklets.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And they don't necessarily have the appreciation for those white chicklets.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, dentistry, if you're going to do it that shitty way, that's pretty easy to

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_01]: do.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll agree with that.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Cutting down a bunch of teeth.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_00]: What's interesting to me is you're, you're.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Melissa is doing the conservative version of, of that, where she's doing these beautiful

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: cases and really improving smiles, but doing it conservatively.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And they look like teeth when she's done so much.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_01]: They look very beautiful.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_01]: But, but there's not the damage being done.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like they don't, people don't know, they don't know how to discern.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously those things.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, and you're looking at it from the standpoint of a patient looking at what they're, what

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_00]: is thrown out there as beautiful teeth where I'm looking at as a dentist going, I don't,

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_00]: these cases don't walk into my office very much.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_00]: The ones where I will say, I will say that like, if you could, if you could just get past

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_00]: the fact that every tooth doesn't need a crown prepped on it, if you could just get

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_00]: past that dentistry would be awesome, right?

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Who wouldn't want to spin down every tooth they look at?

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I remember Howard Fran said, you know, what's the hard part about the crown prep

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_00]: is, is it the chopping the top off or this going around, around, around part?

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't, and I mean, clearly you, clearly there's a lot, a lot we can do, but, but the

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_00]: reality is, is like being aggressive is easy.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and sometimes, sometimes it's necessary.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't get me wrong.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not trying to say that.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I will say my favorite days are days full of crown preparations, you know, whether

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a multiple teeth.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_01]: They're easy for me.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_00]: They are in there and they're, they're fun and they're satisfying and they're profitable.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And the reality is it didn't like, it didn't like around where I work.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_00]: There aren't a ton of people that need crowns on, you know, on, on old dentistry.

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: That's perfectly fine.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I will say you do see a lot of people on Instagram putting stuff on teeth.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: You're like, I didn't even see anything that needed to be done there.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and I mean, it was a pretty nice looking tooth before you prepped it.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And now it's a pretty nice looking on.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I'm like, uh, great.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Now the nerve has, has, has maybe, I don't know.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, it's, it's, it's a little, it's a little presumptive for me to say that, but

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll agree with you that I see some, some of the stuff's a little aggressive.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And then some of the stuff is, I'm not, that's not presumptive.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: We have statistics on these things.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_01]: If a kid at 28 goes in and has 28 teeth cut down, what's the chances that, that he's

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01]: going to go the rest of his life and none of those are going to need root canals.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh geez.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, if, if, if they don't need root canals, they'll, they'll need replacement.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Even, I mean, like, even if you don't want to go to root canals, I mean, like once you,

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: you're going to, yeah.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: At that age, how many, how many times will it need replacement?

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the crazy thing.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_03]: For sure.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm proud, I'm proud when I see, I'll see crowns that we need to redo and I'll, okay.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I have one that, that, this is a classic Saginaw story.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Patient comes in to pay her bill actually.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And she said, oh, I got a crown out again.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we look and this is the same tooth.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: We, we re-cemented a crown in September and it came out in like three weeks.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and I'm, I, I may or may not have recommended the crown be replaced at that point.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't remember.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But of course she was hoping like crazy that the re-cement would hold and it didn't.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So I, you know, I, I then recommend it again.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And I look back and I'm like, I did that crown in 2012.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So it lasted 12 years.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to see it last longer, but that's pretty good.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And she's, she's a high risk mouth.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing shameful about that.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_00]: She's a high risk mouth.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, in someone who, who doesn't, who doesn't have a higher decay rate, that's,

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_00]: that might be more shameful, but it's not shameful.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and the great news is there's two structure there that I can put another crown on.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's really, I'm, I'm like, that's a win, but this person is young enough, probably

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_00]: my age or so that they might need that doggone thing replaced again after I do the crown now.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So you're just like, I, it's not something that they taught us to think about, but the

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: younger, I mean, being conservative has some payoffs.

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Not only, I mean, yeah, it's not as fun to, to prepare a class to filling on a tooth.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I've, I'd much rather spin them down and put crowns on them.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Cause you know, the lab does all the hard work and I just do the, you know, chop the

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_00]: top off and spin around.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and I leave the room after the first seven minutes.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't, I don't, I mean, your workflow is slightly different than mine, but I get it.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_00]: There's, it's, there's not a lot of, yeah.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's, there is more in a crown of leaving the room and yeah, no, that's exactly

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_00]: right.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but the, the reality is that, yeah, it's, it's, that's an issue.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I hadn't even seen it going that way, but it's very true.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, uh, interception on stuff on a young person means if that person is your patient,

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_00]: you're going to see.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Or stuff that just isn't, isn't necessary.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, like these are kids that are getting all their teeth cut down.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Why?

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Cause they want blue chicklets.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I, it's very strange.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I have to say, I don't see a lot of young people coming in like that.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I will say this and this is, well, you don't because you're in Saginaw and you're not putting

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Instagram dentists.

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Who's seeing that are the people who are marketing for it on Instagram.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's something worth mentioning.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a story just recently that one guy wasn't even a dentist.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: There was someone in Ohio.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: He was a veneer specialist.

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_01]: He was just arrested for practicing without a license.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_03]: But you don't have to go to school for veneers.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I went and I actually looked at his page cause I was like, I want to see what kind of dentistry

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_01]: this not dentist was doing.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was, it was, it looked the same as the dentistry that the dentists were doing.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Were they, were they cutting teeth down or no?

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_01]: See, this is what I couldn't tell is because he only had before and afters.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So I could not tell what was the situation.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Cause you see those snap on smile things too.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, well, shit, I could do that.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_01]: This wasn't that.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_01]: No, this wasn't that.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And it could have been one of those, like just the glue on veneer.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But they are marketing for that.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And there are people who are addicted to Instagram who look at that and they go, oh, that's what

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I want.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And also people that hate dentists that much.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, I distrust dentists and hate dentists so much.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this guy wasn't telling anyone that he wasn't telling people he wasn't a dentist.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what I mean?

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Like he was, he was marketing very much.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_01]: He was marketing.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: His page looks exactly like every of the crappy dentists.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully we can.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to send me a link and I'll put a link just so people can see what we're talking about.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_00]: This is interesting.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It looked just like it.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this guy will out because he got arrested.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_01]: The rest of them, you should figure out for yourself.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_01]: But I had a patient.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's just another example of this.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I had a patient and I know I, you listen to me go on about it probably too much because

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I was just, it was a hard issue.

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I get it.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I get it.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But she went out of state and because of, she had health concerns about some old root

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: canal teeth she had.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_01]: She had three root canals in her mouth that had been there.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And she hurt someone.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I had seen them.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I had seen them.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: They look stable on the x-ray.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: We know we don't have any reason to do anything.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_01]: She went out of state and she had those teeth removed and she had them replaced with long

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: span zirconia bridges.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And so she's got now six abutment teeth that are holding these bridges and plates to replace

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: the teeth that were removed because they had root calls done.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And those abutment teeth, again, it's a zirconia bridge.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So it required a little bit more aggressive preparation than what if we did use metal or

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_01]: something.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_01]: But we apparently in the realm, we think that dental metal is.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's true.

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_01]: They did zirconia bridges.

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And that woman has six root canals.

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Because the teeth died, she ended up with terrible pain.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And coming in, in circular conversation I was having with her, because again, I didn't do

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_01]: any of this dentistry.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I had never actually touched the woman.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I had done an exam on her, like a comp exam.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And then all this other stuff had happened.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: She ended up in another state at a weird dentist's office.

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So she did all of this to get rid of the root canals.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And now she has six.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_01]: She doubled her root canal status.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And if I remember correctly, the root canals, she bought into some root canals are poison

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_00]: or root canals cause cancer.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And she, something like that.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So she wanted to get rid of her root canals.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_00]: The reality is, is that, that bugs me a bit.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_00]: It bugs me a bit.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Actually.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I had so much, there was more, to say it bugged me is like the understatement of the

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: understatement of the century.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But more than that, there's dentists making a good living out there that are saying root

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: canals are poison and need to be, any tooth with the root canals needs to be extracted.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And then giving patients dental work that end up requiring them to get six more.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_01]: This was the, you know what I mean?

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Like this was the real, it was just the craziest spin out of a situation.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And it happened pretty quick too.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was trying to talk to this patient.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean like, like it happened pretty quick.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It did.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I think she'd had.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, so here's the other thing is, so she had those teeth removed and ended up hospitalized

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: because she got a wicked infection.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_01]: After the surgeries for removal.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So she had already been through a whole rash of shit before the bridges were even placed.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the bridges were placed and she came home because again, she had been out of state

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_01]: having this done.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_01]: She came back here and was instantly having severe pain.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Like she couldn't sleep.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It was the center of her universe.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_01]: She had to cancel a vacation.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a whole thing.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but part of that was because she was so resistant to then having a root canal.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And I told her, it's like, there's two solutions for this problem.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We can cut the bridges off and pull the teeth or you can go have a root canal.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's it.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, to solve the pain, those are the only two choices.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, you know, but I already, but I just did all this.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I understand all of that, but all I can tell you is where we're at and what

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_01]: we can do moving forward.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And where we're at is you, you're in pain.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not getting better.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: She even tried the, well, what if I live on medication route?

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But so patients are getting influenced by this stuff and they're having very aggressive

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: procedures done.

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, you know, you say, we don't know.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, we do know there's statistics for this.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And the way statistics work is that if you're one of the 15% who end up needing the root

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: canal, you don't really care that there were 85% of people who didn't.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_00]: No, the statistics mean nothing when you're part of it.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And the other way those work is if those are individual teeth, so each tooth has that same

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_01]: chance.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Someone like this woman can end up in the unfortunate position of every tooth that was

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_01]: touched needs a root canal.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like if you asked me, like with the work she had done, what's the chances?

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I would say maybe one, you know, like one or two, but again, statistics don't work that

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_01]: way.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Every goddamn one of them, every one of them.

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, also, also, let's be perfectly honest.

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_00]: This woman had a compromised immune system too.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and teeth that need root canals that there.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, let's be perfectly honest.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_00]: The breakdown of the pulp is a, is a huge immune system thing that we don't know.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know a goddamn thing about.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know anything about how that really works, but, but you know, each tooth, every

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_00]: time you assault a tooth by, by prepping it, working on it, you're assaulting that pulp

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and the pulp has to fight back.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Like some pulps might be stronger than others, but the reality is it's an immune system thing.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and the more aggressively, the more aggressively you attack that tooth.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So again, when you prep it for a Zerk bridge, you're being much more aggressive than you

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: would if you were using something with metal.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Remember in dental school, they used to, they used to call a blushing pulp.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember the term blushing pulp?

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't remember that term.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Really?

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I've never heard that term.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I had, I had a kid, a kid in yesterday.

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It was.

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Does that mean it's pissy?

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_01]: What does that mean?

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_00]: What does the blushing pulp mean?

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Blushing.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_00]: When you blush your, your, your skin turns a little pink or red.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, you're that close to a vital, vital pulp.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a blushing pulp.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I had a blushing pulp when I came in.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_00]: What does that mean?

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_00]: It was one of these things where it was an occlusal filling, an occlusal cavity that was

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_00]: huge.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_00]: You could see on the x-ray and you're like, oh my God.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It looked like, it looked like a mushroom cloud.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh no.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So, and of course the goal was to not expose the pulp.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I had him super numb.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I had him under the rubber dam.

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I had everything.

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And I, and I, like it's that time when the number eight round burr isn't big enough.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you're like, number eight's not getting the job done.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I need a steam shovel in here.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Bring me the tennis ball.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And I, and, and he just jumped one time.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Ooh.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm like, cause I'm my goal here.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_00]: This was, this was one of those modified hall technique things.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I was not going to expose the pulp and I was going to leave decay behind and see if we

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_00]: could see what was, and I told the kid, I said, you know, there's a decent chance we're

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_00]: going to have to treat this with a root canal.

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's, this is a kid who's had multiple root canals too, but I had a blushing pulp

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_00]: yesterday, but I, I, I still feel like we did him a service.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It didn't bleed.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's, he's going to need a root canal.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's be honest.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But we did our darndest.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_00]: We did our darndest and we'll see, we'll see what happens.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_00]: He had one of those before and it hasn't needed, but then the question is, okay, am I just

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_00]: putting off the root canal?

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Cause, cause this, this was, the assault was pretty severe.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_00]: He had a bunch of decay in that tooth.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So then I, and that's, that's the question.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's the lie he needs just to get to that stage.

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there we go.

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: There we go.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe, maybe, maybe the lie I need to not open that tooth up and just do it.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Just so you can know for sure.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_00]: It is.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's like real clinical stuff versus someone who says, well, root canals are poisonous.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Can you freaking imagine?

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_00]: There's an entire, there's an entire specialty.

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're going to say that root canals don't have any bio.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Give me a break.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's people on Instagram doing this shit.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_01]: This is something, this is something I just learned, Alan.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_01]: There's, there's endodontists that are doing this wacky stuff.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's biological, I don't know how else to put this.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So, so there's an endodontist in my area who claims to be a biological endodontist.

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So instead of using bleach.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So this was the hard thing with this patient.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I was trying to break down what she was afraid of.

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, what is it in the procedure that makes you think it's so dangerous?

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said something about the use of formaldehyde.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, you know, it's kind of like the mercury and vaccines thing.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like, you know, maybe there was a time, you know, well, there was, there

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_00]: was a time like on kids or something.

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I, you know, but again, you can't explain the entire history of dentistry

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_01]: to a patient who's already had, you know what I mean?

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Like their brain is hooked.

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's trying, yeah, you can't.

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, but that's not reality.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So they, the, the, the endodontist isn't using bleach to flush the canals.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: They're using ozone.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how you get it down there.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's, it sounds expensive.

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I know I ain't doing anything.

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: But whatever.

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So even in the specialty now, there are people doing these things.

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Jeez.

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So I get, but I don't know, like if the root canal is bad, I don't know how you like unbad

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_01]: the procedure, but maybe you just take advantage of the fact that patients don't really understand

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: how the procedure works anyway.

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, there was that, remember there was that whole Netflix movie, Root Cause, where basically

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_00]: they're saying root canals are the, are basically, did you know that a hundred percent of people

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_00]: with root canals will die?

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you know that?

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_00]: It's amazing how that works.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I know.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So same with the drinking water.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_01]: All those people drinking water.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, and how many times are you guilty of this?

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Cause I'm bad with patients sometimes as far as, I know I just said something.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_01]: They have no idea what I just said.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, and that, and so the, the correlation does not equal causation.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I say that to people and I know it's way too complicated.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It's over their head.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Probably 80% of people I've said it to, like they don't even have a clue what I just said.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But, but I've tried to make that point to people, you know, like, you know, cause well,

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_01]: a good time to make that point is that tooth didn't hurt until whatever.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh geez.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like one of those, it's like, well just because, but, but here's what happens

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_01]: is they go, they, they're going back in time.

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I understand what they mean when the tooth, and I also understand how we end up there.

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't get me wrong.

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But like when the tooth didn't hurt today and then tomorrow it hurts after I worked on it,

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I understand the brain telling you those things because again, correlation and causation

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of are the same there, but why did we have to work on it?

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, we can have that argument.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_01]: That's different.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking about the patient who the, once you touched their mouth, like once everything

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_01]: that ever happens to them again is because you did that one thing.

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, and actually my favorite thing is when they, this is, I put this up on, on Facebook,

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_00]: the, the classic one where, uh, oh, that tooth you just worked on, the filling just came

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_00]: out, tooth just worked on.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're, and of course you hear that and you're like, oh, that's the

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_00]: That's terrible.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_00]: The filling I just did came out and you're worried about it for two days.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_00]: They come in.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the wrong fucking tooth.

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not even, I was, it's not even on the same side and it's a bottom tooth and nothing

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_00]: happened.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, no, come on.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's, and they, they're not even trying to be horrible.

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_00]: They're just, they just don't even know any better.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00]: No, they don't even, they just assume.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_00]: No, they don't know.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's in, and I'm not sure that I should be mad that they don't know.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_00]: You would think that they would know, but I, I mean, oh, that makes me so mad though.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Cause, and the other thing is, is I haven't learned.

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It fell off.

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I never did a crown on that tooth.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you have a crown on that tooth.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_00]: My favorite thing, my favorite thing is when they fight you about it.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_00]: They say, oh no, no, this is the one you just did.

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, no, it's not.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's when I have to like, you pull up the ledger, you pull up the ledger.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, well, then you got it for free.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Cause I never charged you for it in the 20 years that I've been seeing you.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Good deal.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_01]: People are so tiresome with that for sure.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Before we finish, this is the reason that we were going to do this one again.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And we still, we almost didn't get to it again, but I want to, I want to discuss

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_00]: the concept of patients know when you really want them to do the treatment.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_00]: The solution, if you want better case acceptance, you need to care way less.

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_00]: If they do the treatment, there's, there's, there's, there's this weird thing.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You're like a desperate girl.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But, but even if you're not consciously trying to be desperate on some level, it's amazing

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_00]: to me when, okay, the time when they are the most likely to accept treatment from me,

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_00]: it seems like is when I am just absolutely that, or I am so busy, like I'm up to my eyeballs

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and everything.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm doing like the super quick exam and you're like, literally like, okay, we've

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_00]: been, this tooth really could use a crown.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I, you know, you're not, it isn't that I don't want to do it.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just that I just don't even really have time to discuss it.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And as soon as you, as soon as they, they can tell you just don't care and you're just

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_00]: like, you just move.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_00]: That's when they're like, yeah, we got to do this.

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It's crazy.

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like the exact opposite.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's, I, I don't believe in the secret where, where just, you know, whatever you want

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_00]: comes to you.

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It's sort of the opposite.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like whatever you don't care about comes to you in dentistry.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Now here's the solution.

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_00]: The solution is when you do, particularly in recall exams, new patient exams, you're still

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of making a relation, but if there's someone you have a relationship with and you're

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_00]: doing a recall, don't care about anything.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Give them a good exam, but understand that you have someplace to go.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And the trick is have the person who is your treatment coordinator or your, the person who

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_00]: is likely going to get them scheduled and help them understand if they have insurance

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_00]: benefits, what that might pay and that sort of thing.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Have that person hear you do the exam.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You walk out and then they come in and talk about it.

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So you don't care about it.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_00]: They can care about it all they want to, but you don't care about it.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_00]: The patient's more likely to do it.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Why is that?

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Why is the patient, why can the patient tell if you want them to do it or you don't really

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: care?

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so here's the thing.

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't wanted a patient to do anything.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe, I don't know.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't, I would much rather sit at my desk and drink my coffee.

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So I get it.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I also, um, I learned very early that I can't care more than they do.

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's part of what you're talking about.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the key.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So the, is that it's not about wanting them to do it.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It's about caring about their health.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_00]: That's 100%.

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And then them.

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So you see the need more than they ever will because that's your job.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And you've seen 30 years of patients who didn't do it.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And then now they're in trouble for X, Y, and Z reasons.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you can see the future cause you know the future.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_01]: You could even name the person, right?

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But they don't have that experience and you can't impart that to them.

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So when a patient says no, or they are not interested, or it's not bothering me, I go, well, I'm

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: here when you're ready.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And I leave the goddamn room because I don't care.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yep.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I can't, I can't care.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: There's too many people.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_01]: There's like 2000 and some people who come to my practice every year.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, I can't, that's too much caring.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not that I don't care about them as people.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I do.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I want what's best for them.

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_01]: But if they don't want what's best for themselves, I'm going to move on.

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't waste my time trying to convince them.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_01]: The assumption being that they are coming to you.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the more you try to convince them, the more it seems like you're selling something.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's where our profession has gotten kind of a dirty reputation.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Because there is real selling.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of people doing selling.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And I know we talk about selling in dentistry or whatever.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's a bad word to use when we're talking about healthcare.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, maybe it's, you know, maybe that's a verbiage thing.

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_01]: We need a better word because I understand it to some degree it is always going to be selling

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_01]: because you're trying to, you know, explain to a patient why they should buy your services.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I get that.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But patients don't want to feel like they're being sold to by their doctor.

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Patients want to be diagnosed by their doctor.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_01]: That's it.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes they don't even want that.

[00:39:24] Mm-hmm.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of times.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I had a patient leave my practice because, well, I had two over the years.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_01]: One actually came back because I referred them for biopsies.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And then they didn't go.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I referred them again the next time they came.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, at some point, you know, I don't want a person to have something ugly in their body.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But also, I can't lose sleep about the fact that they don't care if they do or not.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's too much of a burden for me to carry.

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But also, legally, I have to keep telling them that it's there.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Yep.

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So, they take it as nagging or, you know, they think I'm judging them or whatever.

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_01]: The one guy, it was because he was a tobacco chewer.

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And he had a nice hard lump in the middle of his little tobacco pouch.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't care.

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, we see those pouches all the time.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But the hard lump, no, we can't let that go.

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And he felt like I was judging him for tobacco chewing.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's on him.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's because he's judging himself and he doesn't want to do it anymore or all that.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_01]: You know?

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't have time in my office to psychologically examine a patient.

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So, if he's going to leave over that, fine.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I did my job.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm moving on.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Patients don't want to be sold to.

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So, when you don't try to sell to them, they might actually believe that you're being their doctor.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So, when you just tell them.

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And the weird thing, though, about dentistry, though, the difference is, like,

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_00]: because when you go to your doctor, I don't feel sold to by my doctor.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_00]: There might be some physicians that, you know, maybe sell extra tests or something because,

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_00]: but I don't feel sold to.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_00]: But also, they never talk about any kind of financial anything with me.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So, it's like, because.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But they're also doing something different, Alan.

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, we're doing diagnosis procedure.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Diagnosis procedure.

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Your family doctor is not doing that.

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_01]: He's not doing any procedures.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Has your family doctor ever done a procedure on you?

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but not.

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But, I mean, it was because I frigging cut my.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_00]: But I cut my thumb real bad.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But you know what I'm saying.

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, you're right.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_00]: We're procedure based.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_00]: We're procedure based.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_00]: They're very diagnosis.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I also think.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_00]: The procedure based thing is something.

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But also the fact that they get paid almost overwhelmingly by a third payer.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_00]: They never have to talk about financial stuff with patients.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It just doesn't come up.

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And the reality is, is like we are trying to explain benefits to our patients.

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But also in the same breath, we also explained to them that it's going to cost them out of

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_00]: pocket X amount too.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it seems like.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_00]: It seems like.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But we're also dealing with dental insurance, which is very different than health.

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It is totally.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But the fact that we have to talk about money seems like we're selling something.

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_00]: That's why.

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_00]: That's one of the reasons I like.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I like handing it off completely to the other person.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I'm like.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's the other thing.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_01]: To patients, I don't know the fee.

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And I mean it when I say it.

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Like patients will go, well, how much is that going to cost me?

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll be like, I don't know.

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I just do the dentistry.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_01]: There's someone who will explain that to you before you go.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's totally honest.

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a lot of people that would fault us for that.

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But I like that.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I don't.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what it's going to cost me.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's for me.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_01]: There are other people who have a different set of skills perhaps.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Like who structure this whole thing differently.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But for me, I just want to be the doctor.

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to do the doctor stuff.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So I do the doctor stuff.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I do the diagnosis.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I recommend treatment.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I give options if there are some.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I know we're always supposed to give options.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like what's your.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_01]: The option of you have a cavity and you need a filling is don't get a filling or get a filling.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Do we really have to.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't need to be so formal.

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know what I mean?

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's so stupid.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But I will tell them what I recommend and then I will leave the room.

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to be involved beyond that.

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't see any reason to be involved beyond that.

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Their insurance, I don't understand how any of that works.

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't either.

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And I have people in the office who understand it better.

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So because that's what they're doing.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_01]: That's their part of this whole equation.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's definitely a team approach.

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And for me, I feel like it works best in my office.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I am not a seller person.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not good at that at all.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm better at talking people out of things than into things for sure.

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't want that role.

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_01]: If there's a doc who's good at that, great.

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_01]: You do that.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Have you ever talked to someone out of having second molars just because their mouth is so small and access is so horrible?

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I literally had a woman where we – yesterday.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I think – well, she's like – my jaw.

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_00]: She told me, my jaw gets puffy.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes when I'm chewing on this thing, it gets – so I'm thinking, geez, does she have an abscess?

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, no, she doesn't have an abscess.

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Her mouth is tiny and she is scissoring her cheek every time she chews with the second molars back.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And the reality is it's like there is no answer to this question other than shortening your arch, girlfriend.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, well, we could take those teeth out.

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But would it really work?

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Or we could just take one tooth out, I suppose, because it's only happening when it gets scissored between the two.

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And it would work.

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It seems horrifying.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_00]: It seems terrible.

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But of course it would work.

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't think the tissue would continue to fall in?

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe, but I don't think so.

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's around that – well, God only knows if she had wisdom teeth.

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how – like there would never have been any room for them.

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But like –

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Could the bite be adjusted?

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean I could adjust the bite, but those teeth are – she's got a big fucking callus on her cheek because she's getting it all the time.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And the hygienist was like, I don't see anything puffy because when you hear puffy and swelling, you're like, okay, is this abscess?

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_00]: You look at it, I'm like, oh, no, no, it's not puffy.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_00]: She's biting her cheek all the time unintentionally.

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And the best part is she's got like – she's got nothing to chew on on the other side.

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_00]: She's like missing a couple upper teeth on the top.

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So she – the reality is like – she got too many teeth.

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_01]: This could be the way her jaw – but the jaw could be shifting because of the absence of the teeth on the one side.

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Her chewing cycle might be messed up.

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Super nice lady literally bringing this to us not to complain, just like asking questions.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And so she and I are sort of like, I have a solution for you.

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_00]: It is the worst solution I can imagine.

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Have you ever heard of a dentist coming in here saying, taking out perfectly good teeth that I put fucking crowns on some years back?

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And now we're saying – now we're saying we're going to take these teeth out because you're chewing your – but the reality is it'd probably work.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It'd probably work.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_01]: What about adding teeth?

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_01]: What about adding teeth on the other side where she didn't have it?

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_00]: We did talk about that.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_00]: She would be a really good candidate because she's only missing upper teeth.

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_00]: She's missing like – we could honestly put like one implant on the upper and give it – like put it in the premolar area.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Because then she could chew on both sides.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_00]: She would have a chewing capacity.

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean she's – she didn't seem very receptive.

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, here's the thing.

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_00]: You think about it.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll talk about it again because you're a good candidate.

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_00]: She's like, oh, but my sinus is – I'm like, yeah, you have – I don't have a 3D x-ray here.

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But you have some options here that you should consider because your life might be significantly better with that.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And while you're in there, we'll shuck those second molars on the other side too.

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't really say that.

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_01]: This is the thing – this is an example of the patient doesn't know what we know and they can't see what we see.

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_00]: That's 100%.

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Back in the day when she lost those teeth on the other side, for sure, they don't understand the consequences of that.

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And even when we try to explain it to them, they're not hearing it because all they hear is to save the tooth is $3,500 and they're not going to do it.

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And then fast forward 20 years, they're chewing all messed up.

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_01]: They're eating half their face.

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_02]: They are.

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_02]: They are.

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_01]: You can say the words.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Legally, you said the words.

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_00]: The worst part of all of it is I've seen this woman forever.

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_00]: She's a great patient.

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I love her.

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_00]: She's fantastic.

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And she's asking good questions and my answers aren't very good.

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just like – and we kind of grew old together.

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_00]: This woman was in the practice before – I mean, so I've literally known her since I've owned this practice.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I, at one point, attempted to make a unilateral partial for her upper that never works, that she never wears.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I hate that.

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_00]: But I was young enough when I did it, I didn't realize what a terrible idea it was.

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's one of those things where –

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_00]: You learned together.

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Like so many things you just learned.

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_00]: You learn the stuff.

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a hot mess.

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think the one thing – something that you can say and hear that experience, like you really can't care more than the patient.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_00]: You're in trouble if you're – not in trouble.

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, like if you care more than the patient, you're definitely in a losing situation.

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And I do think that patients can – patients respond to that.

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But it isn't that you don't care.

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just that you are able to help them understand that it's their problem and you're here to help them with it.

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_01]: There's another prong to this.

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is the idea that when patients do treatment, like it bothers me and I always correct them.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_01]: When they come in and they say things like, oh, I'm sorry, doc.

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I know I haven't done that yet.

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't be sorry for me.

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_01]: You're not doing any of this for me.

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want a patient to do anything because they think I wanted them to.

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Because then anything that happens after that is all because she made me do it and I never wanted to and whatever.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I want a patient who gets in the chair and says, I want this.

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_01]: If they don't want it, I'm not doing it.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I have routinely – I can think of at least two patients in the last – since the summer that got in the chair and seemed hesitant and I sent them away.

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like the one woman we were going to do her anteriors, she's been busting them up for years.

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like she's one of those – we've repaired the edges of her anteriors with deposit for a million times.

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_01]: For a million times.

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And she's finally ready to do the crowns until the day it's time to do the crowns.

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So she's sitting in the chair.

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_01]: She's very nervous.

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_01]: She's like, I don't know if I bleached enough.

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, the first I don't know, I'm out.

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you aren't ready and you don't want to do this, we're not going to do it.

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It's so funny because I don't want patients to treat them for me.

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so happy to do that.

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Even if the patient is in my chair, I'm so happy to do that.

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I said, my personal office is calling.

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_01]: No, and I'm very honest with the patient.

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I tell them, I go, I'm going to go back to my office and drink my coffee.

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I'll be perfectly happy.

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_00]: There's so many dentists out there that are like, there's no way I'm losing that production.

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh my gosh.

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I know.

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_00]: The last thing I want to do is work on someone who doesn't really want me to do it.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're mad at the patient for wasting their time.

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's, the patient is carrying that already.

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_01]: That was one of the things she said.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_01]: That's how I said, I'm perfectly happy to go drink my coffee.

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Because she said, but I wasted your time.

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_01]: She had like a two hour appointment in my schedule.

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, you're not wasting my time.

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, I'm perfectly happy.

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm being very sincere when I say that.

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I am perfectly happy to go back to my desk and drink my coffee.

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a very mature place to be because there would be a time that would have really bothered me because I needed it or I thought I needed it.

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_00]: The reality is, is like, I like the position.

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you need it, you're not going to get it.

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You're not going to get it that way.

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_01]: You're not going to get it by pressuring people.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_01]: What you're going to get out of that, if I had forced that woman to do that work because she was wasting my time otherwise, it becomes a sea of problems I don't want.

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_00]: She would have, well, there's potential for resentment there.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_00]: It can get ugly.

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_00]: It is a very good point to work on patients that actually understand why they need the treatment and that they also want it.

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a big deal.

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm sorry, Doc.

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I know I haven't done that.

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_01]: No, no.

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You're not sorry for me.

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I say it every time.

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I go, don't be sorry to me.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_01]: This doesn't affect me at all.

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_01]: It's your health that we're doing this for.

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_01]: We're doing this for you.

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And so you can be healthy.

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So when you're ready to do that, I am here to help you.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_02]: That's really good.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Until then, I'm going to go back to my desk and drink my coffee.

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to drink coffee.

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Just one more lie that we need, that they need maybe.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But again, but it's not a lie for me though, truly.

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, like that part isn't a lie.

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe there was a time.

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember that time.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I do.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't ever remember a time when I wouldn't rather be at my desk drinking my coffee.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I do.

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember a time thinking, I mean, I like being at my desk, but I also, I like being, I like, if I'm at work, it's one of those time-wasting things.

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_00]: It sort of sucks that I've driven all the way to work and I'm sitting on my hands.

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Although there's always stuff for me.

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_00]: For sure.

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_00]: It is helpful for me to have, there's always freaking stuff to do that's not dental.

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I will say that.

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_00]: The administrative stuff can be done in a lot of times.

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's actually helpful to have those things or podcast editing or whatever.

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And don't think that at all.

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, if I'm at work, I don't want to be at work.

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_01]: If you gave me a choice of staying in bed or going to work any day, there is not a single day I could tell you I would ever have chosen going to work.

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I would always have chosen staying in bed.

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_00]: He's lying.

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the other thing.

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're going to drag me out of bed and make me go to work, well then you better let me work.

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Keep me busy.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, that is absolutely true.

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to be busy at work.

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm not going to be busy at the expense of creating future problems.

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_00]: That's 100%.

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_01]: That's 100%.

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want future problems.

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, if it means that for an hour this morning, and here's the thing.

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_01]: She had a two-hour block on my schedule.

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I had shit in three other columns.

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like, I wasn't dedicated to her solely.

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to be sitting at my desk for more than 15 minutes of that two hours now.

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's the idea that I'm not coming off like a desperate girl.

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Please pay attention to me.

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Why didn't he text me back?

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, it's that.

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And you don't want to be that.

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_01]: You know why he's not texting you back?

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Because you're being a desperate, like ridiculous person.

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So you don't want to be that to your patients.

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't want to be this ridiculous person to your patients.

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is absolutely how it will come off if you don't play that right.

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Even if you don't, even if that's not the place it's coming from, I think it does kind of feel like that to the patient.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I think patients make sense.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the old school hard to get.

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_00]: No, you're right.

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_00]: It's old school hard to get.

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_00]: You're right.

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_00]: You're right.

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Hard to get, for some reason, works in human psychology.

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_01]: They want that thing they can't have.

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're like, I'm going to be able to talk to you.

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_00]: He said he didn't want to treat anyone until they kind of begged him to do it.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Like he was.

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually, it sounds silly, but you're like, no, no, no, no.

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Cause a patient, if they're like, if they're committed or if they're invested in the idea of doing it, that's better for you.

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_00]: It really is.

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It's, it isn't just like you said.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_01]: A million times over.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Like if they're doing it cause you, you've shamed them into doing it, that's really bad spot to be in.

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you might get a patient or two to do some stuff, but it's really not.

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you need to work on the relationship and understanding.

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But I also don't ever want to make a person feel ashamed.

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like I, I mean, cause that's a huge barrier for people in dentistry is that they are embarrassed by what they have let happen.

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And let's face it, we are all falling down on something.

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Sure.

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_01]: There is some place I was telling you about, we work out this morning suck cause I hadn't been in the gym in three weeks.

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_01]: We are all falling down on something.

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So who are we to judge these people who got hooked on Mountain Dew cause they were driving a truck at three in the morning for the last, you know what I mean?

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Like there's circumstances and we're all dealing with those.

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So you don't want to ever be the source of shame for people.

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I have had people sit in my chair and tell me terrible things that dental professionals have said to them.

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that is a shame on our profession.

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It is not a shame on the patient.

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_01]: We all know that patients don't do what they're supposed to do, but we're patients too.

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_01]: We're also not doing what we're supposed to do.

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of fat dentists out there.

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's just say that right now.

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of fat dentists out there.

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But to them, that's a selling thing.

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I think, you know, like it doesn't even occur to them that, you know, they're going to beat the person down until they do the thing.

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, sell the part where they're going to be healthy and feel better about themselves.

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And sell the part where you're not judging them because you don't really care that much.

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the other thing about not caring.

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_01]: People don't feel judged by someone who really doesn't give a shit if they do it or not.

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_00]: It's right.

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And you can come off not, you know, like you don't care.

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just that it's not important to you.

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not, it isn't, you don't care if they do it or not.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not personal to me.

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_00]: It's important that they understand their situation and make a choice.

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not that you don't care.

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, you'd love to do the treatment for them.

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_00]: But also it's not, you don't need them to do it.

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not about, it's not about me.

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It's about the, it's about the patient.

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's, that's a big deal.

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_01]: In the office, you are a vehicle.

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You are a tool.

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_01]: You are not a person.

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Very true.

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Whose ideas are to be considered other than a diagnostic, you know, doctory point of view.

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It is not about you and your emotions in the situation.

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_01]: You need to be emotionless about that patient's situation as much as you can.

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_00]: In that situation.

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And that doesn't mean that you don't care.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that you're not compassionate.

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean that you don't care about what you're doing, that you don't want to do a good job.

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean any of that.

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_01]: It just means that you as a person and how you feel about it as a person is not a factor.

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's not.

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Diagnose and explain like Spock.

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you got those pointy ears.

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Emotionless.

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I like that.

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I like that.

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Diagnose like Spock.

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_00]: You can treat like someone else, but diagnose like – diagnose and explain like Spock because it's – you inject as little of your own emotion into it.

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean you could – if it were a cosmetic thing, you can be excited for the fact that you can help them with – that's kind of fun.

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a little different.

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But the reality is a lot of what we're doing is kind of like functional stuff.

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's interesting.

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It's very interesting.

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_00]: All right, Dawn.

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we covered it pretty good.

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Like considering we came in here not really knowing what we were going to talk about.

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_00]: We almost went an hour.

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's like kind of classic actually.

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_00]: But –

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_00]: If you guys – if any of this stuff moved you, I suspect there will be several things in here that people are going to think about.

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_00]: We should talk about it in the Facebook group.

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And Dawn, thank you again for being on.

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_00]: This was great.

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me.