Very Dental: There is No Smooth Sailing with Dr. Dawn Grimes

[00:00:01] This is a production of The Very Dental Podcast Network. This is The Very Dental Podcast. Welcome to The Very Dental Podcast, where you'll find entertaining and relevant conversations with visionaries, clinicians, and your friends in the dental space. Now here's your host, Dr. Alan Mead.

[00:00:29] Very dental people, welcome to another episode of The Very Dental Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Alan Mead. Joining me as a co-host, she's been a co-host many times before, Dr. Dawn Grimes. Dawn, how are you doing? Good. No one knows me as Grimes on your podcast.

[00:00:43] I know, I know, right? I know. I almost... It's been like a year, but whatever. It's a reflex. It's a bit of a reflex, but there we have it. So Dawn is, I believe you're sitting in your office. I am. So you're at the office.

[00:00:55] I'm in my little cave under the stairs at home. I was going to say, it's very black where you are. It is. It is. Oh, this is a perfect conversation to what we were having.

[00:01:04] I have to update the software of my backlight, and I can't turn it on unless I update the software. Wait, why does the light have software? I have no idea. Elgato, I can't turn it on.

[00:01:19] I had some lighting fixtures changed at my home, and they sell lighting fixtures now that you actually cannot change the light bulbs in. When the light burns out, you have to get a new lighting fixture. I'm going to just hang on.

[00:01:32] I'm going to get on my phone and see if I have... No, I don't. I don't have it here. I used to be able to turn it on. I don't have that. Yeah.

[00:01:42] So literally, I have to update, and I just didn't have enough time to do it, and I can't turn it on without new software. It's much like if you want to change your Verizon account at all, you have to have three phone calls.

[00:01:54] And eventually, probably multiple people on the line helping you out. There's no... Yeah. And someone to handle you because you're getting an attitude. So here's the thing. Everything is like that. Dawn and I were talking, and I'm not going to talk about this for long because

[00:02:08] it is not good podcasting, but my two sons, I have to get them signed up for athletic clearance, I guess, at the high school. And it's the hardest thing I've ever done in my entire life. I feel like... I feel...

[00:02:22] Remember in dental school second year when you had finals, and you'd have so many... You had so many midterms in a week that you literally... You would study for the amount of time that you were awake for the one, and you'd take it. Or between exams.

[00:02:37] And then you'd start... Exactly. You literally didn't... You couldn't... It was all studying all the time, and it was just a constant flow. That sounds easy compared to what I have to do to get my sons signed up for...

[00:02:48] Part of why it sounds easy is because it's in the past. It is, yeah, because I did it. I did it already. And I have not... This is hurdle after hurdle. The athletic account, you still haven't cleared that hurdle. Unreal. So it seems...

[00:03:00] In a month, you'll be like, what was that? Yeah, unreal. Unreal. And this is something that has caused so much strain between my wife and I. I'm not sure that she'll talk to me again over this. Can I plug being single? I mean, it's...

[00:03:13] Wow, I'm blown away by... And of course, and it also comes down to... This is the best. It comes down to what browser you are using. Oh no. So, and usually, I like a Chrome browser. And usually it says it'll work better on it.

[00:03:28] If I go to Safari and it'll work. Well, this one, she was on Safari and Chrome is working better. Who knew? Who knew? So yeah, I'm poking my eyes out. It's been a thing.

[00:03:39] This is a Monday, and I'm not working on Mondays, but I feel like right now I'm like, I would love to be seeing patients, even difficult patients. I'd love to be talking to patients that hate me right now compared to what I'm doing with this.

[00:03:53] So yeah, that's where I am. The devil you know. It is. It is the devil you know. It is the devil you know. My gosh. So Dawn and I have been talking about some of the things we were going to talk about.

[00:04:02] There's a lot, but I think it's going to be a really good shoe. I've got... One of the things that we were talking about is how... Okay. So both of us are mid-career dentists, mid-career dentists, which is... I don't know what that really means, but...

[00:04:20] Does it mean I have to put in as much time as I've already put in? I don't know. That's the thing. Like mid-career... I don't want to talk about that anymore then because I don't want to go there. Mid-career. Does that mean I'm only halfway done?

[00:04:31] Oh my God. I mean, okay. So I graduated in 1997. So I've been practicing since 1997. So that's like, if you do the math there, there's... That's 27 years. That's 27 years if I'm doing the math correctly, I think. And I've owned a practice for 26 years. I bought a practice in 1998.

[00:04:49] So I've been a 26-year practice owner and you have owned a practice since when? So I graduated in 2002. Oh, you're just a kid. Just a punk kid. I'm only a couple of years behind you. And then I bought my practice in 2005. 2005. So you're in your 20th year.

[00:05:07] So the bottom line is we're both old. I don't know. I, the more I think I know about podcasting, the less I do. Because I used to think podcasting is for young people. I mean, no, it's not. Podcasting is for people like our age.

[00:05:20] I think TikTok is for... I mean, TikTok and Instagram reels are where people are getting stuff. Now I bet you, I mean, people, young people listening to us are probably thinking that we're talking about taking Geritol and washing the gray out. Or fiber. Look at my skin, Alan.

[00:05:38] I might be old, but I still have... She's taking care of her skin. That's right. My concern about all of this is that when I started, it seemed hard. This sort of goes along with what we were saying. It seemed like everything was so hard.

[00:05:53] I got loans to pay. I got to figure out... I have so many different kinds of insurance I have to have for an office. I have to pay my rent. I have to... All these things.

[00:06:01] And I'm like, but eventually, eventually we'll have this all figured out and it'll be smooth sailing. Everything will be easy. That's like... In my mind, I thought there would come a time where this stuff would just be super easy. And your point is that you thought that too.

[00:06:20] You mentioned that. I think it's a lie. Yeah. Well, that's what... Because it's been coming up a lot in my personal life, just in regards to people talking about their careers and this career in particular or whatever.

[00:06:29] But I did, I say that all the time that it's one of the biggest disappointments of my career is that I really did think that there would come a point where it was just smooth sailing, where you just... Everything was kind of in the bag. Everything was done.

[00:06:42] You just came in, did your thing and went home. And it's just never been like that. There's periods like that, maybe a couple months are calm, but then the storms come and the storms are always coming. They've never stopped. They've never stopped. And I just have to...

[00:06:57] I've gotten to a point where I think that it's a lie we almost need to tell ourselves. And I think we do this in all of life, right? The lie we always tell ourselves, well, we've talked about this on our other podcast, that it'll be better tomorrow.

[00:07:11] We live on that lie. Yeah. And I think that sometimes we live on that lie because we need it. Because otherwise it becomes hopeless. That's a good point. You start to feel hopeless. You're like, I have to deal with this again? Didn't we just deal with that?

[00:07:23] Why do I deal with this again? So here's the lie that I guarantee you people our age are telling themselves. Man, it'll be great when I'm retired. This will be great when I'm retired. Oh God. I won't have to worry about this stuff.

[00:07:36] And the reality is there's always stuff. It just might be different stuff. Just changes form. Yeah, yeah. Like I have to say too that like... And sometimes you think you've got the stuff all figured out and it comes back.

[00:07:54] Like there was a time when I thought cash flow... Once I got cash flow... So I mean, if cash flow wasn't an issue, if I ever wasn't going, man, am I going to have enough to do this?

[00:08:04] And then there was a time when that just didn't seem to be a thing. You know what that time was? That time was when they gave us a whole bunch of money from COVID and it was just sitting in your account doing nothing. Oh.

[00:08:14] Didn't they make you spend that money like... Yeah, they did. They did eventually. So all of a sudden you had to get back to real life. You couldn't just sit on that lump of money knowing that you were a fabulous business person. You know, that's sort of...

[00:08:27] I mean, on some level, like the dumb things are kind of always there. And as soon as you whip one of them, another one sort of shows up, you know, because as soon as you've got that patient that was really angry at you,

[00:08:43] kind of ironed out or as soon as you've got that referral figured out, then your hygienist quits or then someone needs to be off for a long period of time or then your kid gets suspended from school or then... So here's the thing. There isn't...

[00:09:03] And if there's a time when there's nothing, you just sit and enjoy it for a second because it can't last for long. That's not how life works. But that's the same with the bad times too. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:16] And I mean, that's the spiritual lesson that they teach with that all the time is that is absolutely the case is that, you know, it doesn't matter where you're at. It won't be here long. That's impermanence.

[00:09:25] And the beauty of impermanence is that it's true of bad things too. Yeah, that's fair. You know, this too shall pass. But what tends to be the problem is that we don't enjoy the good when we have it. Yeah.

[00:09:36] We tend to create problems where there aren't any or we spend the time when we don't have other things to be doing with our brain. We're not like hyper focused on I got to get my business shit together. When you're not hyper focused on that, instead,

[00:09:46] you're being mad about something that happened two years ago. You know, like we spend a lot of time either worrying or regretting. And then when things are good, your brain is just going, what am I going to be mad about now? Because I got that one done.

[00:09:58] But now I'm pissed because it's taking me a long time to register my child to run for cross country and I want to murder someone and there's no one to murder. So I'll be mad about that. So frustrating. It is.

[00:10:09] But I mean, like, it's all kind of, I don't know, man. Sometimes I wonder if we had to like, if we had to kill what we ate, like literally had to go out in the woods and find something to murder to eat or pick berries or whatever.

[00:10:24] All of a sudden we'd have less to be mad about maybe. I mean, and more to be afraid of. Yeah, because you have real problems. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You're like, I have nothing to eat today. That's a real problem. Yeah, that is a real problem.

[00:10:35] That's sort of it. My hygienist quit. I mean, it's a hiccup. Yep. You know, but in the moment, it feels very much like a real problem. Yep. You know, I mean, I was very frustrated. You know this. I mean, we have no secrets.

[00:10:46] I was very frustrated in my practice the last couple of months. Yeah. And I mean, to the point I was considering selling it. And then I realized it's just going to be trading one problem. One set of problems trading them for another. It's interesting you say this.

[00:10:59] So the story is, okay, a lot of people look at the bid business administration. Part of it is like, I never signed up for this. And I see that I can understand where someone comes from because there you go to dental school

[00:11:15] and you're trying to learn to be a dentist and they really don't teach you how to run a business at all. Maybe they do better now, but they didn't when I was there. I get it.

[00:11:22] And so a lot of us and myself included going, I never signed up for this. This wasn't part of the deal. This was, I want to, you know, I, and then you have your friends who work for someone,

[00:11:31] they work in a cubicle or they work and when they leave work, they leave work. Although I don't know that that actually really happens if they have a company phone. No, and those people sometimes we have to remember. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:41] But we also have to remember the element of fulfillment. Yeah. And sometimes cubicle work does not make you feel like you're leaving a life that's is making a difference in the world or has much meaning. You know what I mean? Like, so there's other problems with that.

[00:11:53] I mean, there's every, everyone's got problems. But the other thing that's funny about the business administration thing is that I think there is a, um, a lot of people our age are thinking, man, I'm over this business administration thing.

[00:12:06] I should sell to a DSO who can manage my business stuff because that's sort of one of the promises that the DSOs talk about. And I've talked about this a bunch on the podcast is that you just show up and work and go home.

[00:12:19] And the reality is, I don't think that's true. I think that there are some things that they can manage and there's some things that they have the ability to do, but also they add another layer of you being, you working for them. I don't know what that is.

[00:12:35] I haven't gone through the process, you know more about it. I'm not even gonna ask you about it now because we're probably gonna do another one of these someday, but the bottom line is it's like they're solutions, but they come with their own problems I suspect as well.

[00:12:46] So, all right. No. So anyway, but yes, the idea being that a DSO can fix your business problems and that is a selling, that's a selling point. And I don't know if I believe that it's true.

[00:12:59] I, I think it can be true depending on what your problems are. Yeah. Maybe that's something, um, you know, personally. And again, I can't say I won't be back there as far as, you know, give me a month.

[00:13:11] I'm sure I'll be just as frustrated and going, do I really want to do this anymore? Um, but I do think it's, it's no different than anything else. You're just trading one set of problems for another.

[00:13:20] Like when we retire and we don't come to this place anymore and we don't, you know, do the teeth drilling nonsense, there will be other problems. You know, my parents are retired. My dad has cancer, you know, like there's other things that you're dealing with

[00:13:34] in that set of circumstances. It's just, I just, I know I recommended it to you. I just took that class with Sharon Salzberg about equanimity. Yeah. We'll put it up. And that's one of the things she talks about. It's like, it's not about the problems that you have.

[00:13:47] It's about how you're dealing with them. Yeah. It's how you manage them. It's how you manage yourself, honestly. Exactly. So it's like, how does this affect me when X happens? I do Y what is my Y looking like? Because the Y is really what's coloring your life.

[00:14:00] That's what's making your life. What it is. It's your reaction to the things that are happening. And we all for sure have moments. Again, I had to be handled on the Verizon call the other day. Yeah.

[00:14:09] Meaning some other woman had to come on the call because I was getting very upset. Yeah. I don't. And I'm not usually a person who has to be managed. I'm usually pretty good at self-managing. I was not doing well in that moment.

[00:14:21] The older I get, the more grumpy old man I am. Not real proud of that. But it's, but I think that, I think that's a real thing too. It's like, I don't tolerate fools as well. And I also maybe don't know. But isn't that a freedom of sorts?

[00:14:34] Yeah. You just don't have to? I don't know if, I don't know if I have like, like I'm sometimes what I will say. I'm sometimes not proud of my reactions. My good reactions. Oh, I'm super not proud of having to be handled on the Verizon call.

[00:14:48] Like less, like less proud of my reactions than I used to be. And I don't know. I don't know. Like there's no part of me that, that feels like, do you know who I am?

[00:14:59] Except, except I feel like the grumpy old man is sometimes wants to say that. Like, and maybe because I've just been through a lot of this stuff. I'm like, why am I having to deal with this now? But in any case, like it is about the reaction.

[00:15:12] And frankly, it's about, I don't know. It's the, the reaction. Sometimes the reaction is hard. The best thing is when you've got one thing going on and you have to have a reaction to something else that happens.

[00:15:27] So when I can't get the forms filled out for my kids and it's on my mind and then I'm reacting to something else because I'm pissed over here. It's like, I can only be pissed at so many things at once, you know?

[00:15:39] It's just like, and, and so my reactions all of a sudden sort of just come off all, all the same. So deep breaths, I think help and a little perspective, but it is, it is a funny thing that like the problems of dental practice will vary,

[00:15:54] but there is no time where you're like, I'm done. Everything's perfect. And, and it's fine. Every patient that walks in the door will accept all of my treatment and I will have no complications because I am that good of a provider.

[00:16:08] You know, it's like, I, I, I, and I do believe that there was a time I thought maybe once I had enough experience, that would happen. I don't think that ever happened. No. And again, you're dealing with the unmanageable.

[00:16:19] Like if we didn't have staff and patients and we only had to deal with ourselves and our own reactions to things, it might be a lot simpler. Yeah. But most of our problems, I mean, tell me most of your problems aren't staff or patient related. Yeah.

[00:16:33] You know, so it's the human elements that we can't control that become the biggest obstacle. Like, you know, when I was so frustrated over the last couple of months, it was all about staff issues. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like my staff costs have never been higher. I know.

[00:16:46] And I mean that on all fronts, like whether you run it by a percentage or a flat number or whatever, my staff costs have never been higher. I'm short at least two people. So I need to be adding to that number. I know. And God help me.

[00:16:59] Where do you find these people? Yeah. Well, and that's the other thing is like what kills me is the people within the DSO space have the answer. They think they have the answer to this, but they're hiring from the same place that I'm hiring from.

[00:17:11] I mean, like if my practice is in Saginaw, I can't hire from Idaho. OK, it doesn't matter. So the story is it's the same patient pool and they say, but we can offer so much more. I'm like, but they don't. I don't know that.

[00:17:25] I don't know that you can. My practice. Yeah. Yeah. They evaluated, they were shocked at my staff. You're paying too much. I'm like, yeah. Tell me about it. So they're not going to offer more. Yeah.

[00:17:35] They're going to offer, they're going to offer them benefits that you wouldn't offer them. But the other answer that I've heard, I got to tell you, God love these people. Well, they just produce more. You pay them on production, they produce more. Like, oh, perfect.

[00:17:48] Just what I need is a bunch of people that are gouging because that never goes wrong. Patients don't ever feel gouged or anything like that. You have to be careful about that. I mean, or you or you don't and you have to be OK with it.

[00:18:02] But I, you know, I, I can't, I don't feel good about that. No, I get it. But so I mean, these are the problems of the middle aged dentist. And I will say that the I remember. So you and I, how do you put it?

[00:18:16] We belong to a secret society. Yeah. And we talk about these things, right? Yeah. So we've had a lot of discussion recently about some of the dental influencer types and a lot of the young, obviously they need to be because I don't know how to put anything

[00:18:31] on Instagram or and I don't have the tick tock. Yeah. So I'm too old for that. But but the young people who are doing these videos and putting them out there, they're complaining about not having the opportunities. Yeah.

[00:18:47] To do higher production like that seems to be a pretty common complaint. Right. Yeah. And and I, I don't, those are the complaints of a young of a younger doctor. And I remember there was one in particular that that you and I tried to engage with. Yeah.

[00:19:02] To present the the employer doctor's perspective on that. And we were instantly banned and told we were not welcome. I am not normally the person I was on that Verizon call. Normally I can like really put words together well to be sensitive and and clear.

[00:19:20] And that person didn't want to hear any of it. Yeah. Also, I gave that guy a free ticket to VOD at one point. Did you? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I was I was supportive. Did he come? Oh yeah. He was there.

[00:19:31] He did a bunch of interviews, all that stuff. This was that was before all the other stuff went down. I'm going to tell you what I'm going to tell you what like I am I'm too old. The influencer space has been in my head for a little bit.

[00:19:45] I'm a little mad about it because like here's the thing. Influencers are better than the rest of us. Just ask them, they'll tell you. But on top of the fact like you and I talking about the dumb problems that are day to day

[00:19:59] practice owner problems, guess who never talks about that shit? Them because they don't have them. Well, yeah, or if or they're certainly not going to. It's important that they show the thing that you and I thought we were going to have.

[00:20:14] Someday we're going to have none of these problems. And guess what? That's what influencers look. That's what Instagram dentistry looks like. They never they never show the time you can't find the mesial buckle canal on 19. Because where the fuck is it? It's there. It has to be there.

[00:20:31] I don't have a CT scanner. No, sorry. So but but here's the thing. Stupid shit like that happens all the time in real life. That's not that's not what the influencers are going to show you.

[00:20:43] Like the other thing is, is like to all their patients open like they. Ah, I think a lot of those patients are sedated when I see videos. I need to be sedated on most of those patients are sedated. Yeah, maybe.

[00:20:56] And I don't I have no answers on that. Of course, the other thing is, is if you're going to document a case like crazy. Yeah, you're going to document on the case who I'm the guy who can open like crazy.

[00:21:05] And you never see a one year post up. No, I mean, all of that is real. But all of that leads someone who doesn't think about it, which is often me. Because if you're if you're if you're thinking at it on a surface level,

[00:21:18] you're like, man, this person really hasn't figured out. I don't know anything like, oh, wait a second, because real life doesn't ever look like this. Like, so this is something that we we learn in our secret society also is that,

[00:21:30] you know, we know some of these people who whose living depends on presenting a certain kind of work. Yeah, right. Because they're teaching that stuff. Yes. We know the realities. Yes. That they live with, too. And it's the same as the rest of us. Yeah, yeah.

[00:21:45] It's really about presentation there, because what are you selling? So if you're selling your methods of dentistry, you have to sell something that looks really good. But behind the scenes, we all know that they are also having failures and equipment malfunctions and personal problems.

[00:22:02] And all of those things are happening to those people. I try really hard not to wear the tinfoil hat, you know, but basically everything is a lie until proven otherwise. That's a pretty healthy way to be. Just everything is a lie until proven otherwise.

[00:22:16] And I mean, you're safe with that anyhow. So one of the things is I forget that that is a good rule. I forget that that's a good rule. Like it's OK to look at really cool stuff on Instagram, great dentistry, but you don't know the situation of that.

[00:22:32] And let's be honest, the stuff that I want to put up on Instagram is when my dog is being cute and cuddly and when the cats are big. Not when she's out there barking like a total asshole all the time.

[00:22:45] And just remember, that's the stuff that makes it to Instagram. You know, the stuff that you really want everyone to believe that this is your life. And that's part of being human. You know, back to our main point, you and I didn't grow up with these influences, though.

[00:22:57] Like this is all very new. So our idea is that dentistry was going to be smooth at some point. Those came from inside our own heads. They did. It did not come from some external thing. And I don't know that I knew any dentists like you did.

[00:23:10] You had your dad, but I didn't grow up with a dentist. I didn't know anyone. So I think it was a creation of my own mind. I remember a time when I didn't. OK, so there was a cattle, it was a big magazine.

[00:23:26] It was like a book actually. It's called Reality. And I mean, I think what's really funny is I like I messaged the guy who started Reality. I forget his name. I said, man, Reality really made a big difference for me before social media. Reality was just everything.

[00:23:41] And he came back with me. I'm glad to hear that we still exist, though. Like, like, I didn't realize that I was kind of shitting on him because everything was like that wasn't my intention either. But like, I would look at Reality.

[00:23:53] It was basically Dentaltown and Reality book, magazine, whatever, made me realize that there were things you could do that were that were different than what I learned in dental school, basically, or different.

[00:24:04] I know that sounds silly, but there was a time when the only dentistry I really knew was like the bit of CE that I took and what my dad and I saw and stuff. And like, like, I look back on that time.

[00:24:15] It's a little quaint, to be honest. I kind of like it. Like now I look at and I thought I was a pretty good dentist back then, too. And now I'm like, I'm middling at best. You know, let's be perfectly honest.

[00:24:27] But but part of that is just what everyone shows is is is the is the highlight reel. But I do. So when did that when you and I were talking about this, what's so funny is the expectation

[00:24:39] game is so different depending on when you started your career to you think about it like when you and I got out of dental school, the idea of buying someone's practice or doing

[00:24:51] a startup of your own was like, I think, yeah, that's what most people are going to do. They're going to buy a practice at some point. You're going to buy someone's they'll probably maybe maybe work with someone for a couple of years, associate by their practice.

[00:25:02] Have that was very typical right now that that almost never happens now that just it just doesn't happen like that. It's it's first off, associate ships of that quality are very hard to come by.

[00:25:13] And to be perfectly frank, there is there are plenty of secret societies out there that I am unlikely to be part of. I would not be welcome in. I suspect there are Facebook groups full of associates shitting on their their owner dentists, that sort of thing.

[00:25:27] I'm sure that exists as well. You know, whereas, you know, and there's tons of horror stories about horrible associateships, all that stuff. So the reality is like that what work looks like now for a new dentist is so different

[00:25:42] than what work looked like when you and I got out. And imagine when my dad got out in 1964. I mean, like, imagine what his career trajectory felt like then compared to when you and I got out. So it really it's very.

[00:25:55] It's very different in in ways that I don't even know, like I can't know what it's like to owe 500 grand out of dental school and have have I can't know the decisions that I would

[00:26:07] make knowing that I've got a six or seven thousand dollar nut before I've even bought a car, you know, like I can't know that like like my worst case scenario. I think I when I bought my practice, I mean, you know that better than I do because you

[00:26:20] paid more for your practice. But I never had a big I mean, I paid my practice off in in 2006 something. I mean, yeah, you know, I didn't buy a building till 2013. And I mean, like, you know, in our interest rates were low when we bought things, you

[00:26:38] know, it's just like so much I can't and I can talk about it. I can't understand it. I can't I can't know how I would make decisions any differently. You know what I'm saying?

[00:26:47] Like it is so different in my dad probably looked at me coming out of school with 85 thousand dollars in debt and said, that's crazy. I mean, he just paid for school when he was in there. This is what he did. Oh, yeah, it was a big deal.

[00:26:59] Yeah, I came out of school with 200 thousand dollars of debt. OK, OK. I mean, it's a few years later, but a significantly greater amount, of course, that. Oh, yeah. It's like surprise. No one, by the way, should surprise no one. It's not getting any better people.

[00:27:14] Yeah, it's just like the trajectory is weird. I am. I this is how I know I'm very old is because when I meet these younger, like fresh out of school dogs, they seem so young to me. Yeah, they are.

[00:27:26] And I know, but I was that too, you know, but I met one at a like a luncheon at a CE class kind of thing. And he was taking a year off before starting work. And I was like, how are you doing that?

[00:27:40] I would love to know what was his answer? I'm interested. I'd like to take a year off. I didn't ask that. But, you know, he was living with his parents and he was going to take a year off and then start practicing.

[00:27:51] And I'm like, can you do that? Like, I don't even again, but I don't the world is such a different place. And I think that's part of this no smooth. Can you imagine having a year off without ever having practiced in?

[00:28:04] No, like I was I had two months off because you had to wait for the boards to come back. Do you remember this? So you couldn't practice. And I didn't even take the time off. I started I worked, you know, I worked that whole summer.

[00:28:16] And then when my license came through, I started work. And I remember the first day I had to do a postcourt crown and I was like, uh-huh. What's this? So what? Okay, this is this will this will tell you.

[00:28:26] So my dad, my dad's office, I spent a fair amount of my time running ethernet cables in the crawl space under my dad's office when because I was waiting for my license to come. I was waiting for waiting to get my board stuff back.

[00:28:41] And he'd never had a he never had a network computer system. He had like one computer in the front kind of thing. So he was running he had Dentrix. He chose Dentrix and we networked his office with Dentrix kind of ourselves.

[00:28:54] I remember vividly, like I remember vividly how Sandy and like we found was really cool. We found really old McDonald's wrappers under the crawl space. They remember back when they used to use styrofoam to put their hamburgers in. That's how old it was. Yeah, it was great.

[00:29:09] I remember and I remember thinking that I felt out of the loop because I wasn't doing dental dentistry stuff. I mean, it's shoot when I was gone for treatment, I was I didn't work for five months.

[00:29:23] I mean, I basically I did a little bit, but it is like riding a bike. But but also you're like, wow, I remember this. I remember doing this. It does. It comes right back. It comes right. You couldn't forget if you wanted. Yeah, there's the bad news. Yeah.

[00:29:36] I think that that's the thing about the no smooth sailing is that it's a landscape that is constantly changing and we have to adjust. Yeah. And the constant fine tuning adjustment of the business part again, the dentistry. Yes, the dentistry changes a lot over time, but not really.

[00:29:53] You know what I mean? Like you changing materials and you're using new instruments as far as like we have new diagnostics and that sort of thing. But that's stuff, you know, that's background stuff for what the problems are.

[00:30:03] Like, have you ever stressed out over like you had new X-ray software or you know what I mean? Like that's never been the thing that stressed me out. The things that stress me out are the. Paying for X-ray sensors stresses me out besides that. Exactly.

[00:30:15] So it's the changing business stuff. That's where the stress has come from because it's like, well, shit, now there's this new thing and I need to get that. And it's like ridiculously expensive. And then you have to figure out all of that. And that is the stressful stuff.

[00:30:28] It's not the actual dentistry part, which is where the DSO thing sounds like a good idea. But then, like I said, that when they buy that sensor or that whatever it is for your office, that comes out of your bottom line anyway. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[00:30:39] Like you're being paid on a bonus based thing and it's based on profitability. And anytime you spend money or have more staff, those things come out of your profitability. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's more money out the window. So it's a tricky dance.

[00:30:53] But the reality is I sit in a place where and this is one of the things I think I probably discussed it with you at the time is that the reality I am facing is that the only

[00:31:04] possibility most likely because I am a mid-career dentist, the only possibility I have of selling my practice is going to be to a DSO. That's a little scary because I think most mid-career dentists are looking directly at that.

[00:31:18] What other options are there going to be to sell a practice? Right. So here's the thing. I'm totally facing the idea that it's okay if I don't sell my practice. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[00:31:31] Like that's going to be it's not going to be part of my retirement plan. Can you imagine though, like 10 years ago thinking that of course everyone, everyone was like, well, God, I'll have this great resource. This is this great asset to sell to someone.

[00:31:44] And I can, I can, you know, I can groom the person to be the dentist that I want to take over for me. And now you're thinking to yourself, well, I might just close the doors. I'll just send everyone a letter and say, good luck. It's been good.

[00:31:58] I have a friend who sold somewhat recently and she did sell to a private party as opposed to a DSO. She had offers from DSOs. It was a whole thing. Like it took a long time to get that thing going, but she finally sold and she, because

[00:32:12] it's a private buyer, it's not as great of a deal financially. But you know, she's like, I got something for it. Whatever. You know, because it's the same thing. And this is a person who's 20 years ahead of me in the career.

[00:32:25] So if that's what I got something for it, oh, that's hard. You know, if it's, I got something, I got nothing, but I didn't get nothing. I got 50 years of a living. Yeah, no, exactly.

[00:32:37] The other thing that's funny too, is that you think about an equipment purchase and you think, well, this'll be, I mean, someone's going to want to buy this. And you're like, yeah, but by the time you're selling it, it's old.

[00:32:47] It's essentially, you know, everything that's something that I've learned. Everything looks tired in 10 years. Every, every, every choice you made about decor, every choice you made, everything looks tired in 10 years and not just tired, but dated, you know, like, oh yeah, like it really,

[00:33:06] it really sucks to think, you know, the state of the art, you know, office in 1998 looks the same now is the 1972 office looked in 1997. Like no one really believes that. Like, I think they're like, well, but some design is timeless. I'm like, nope, I don't think so.

[00:33:29] I don't think there's anything that looks timeless. So your office is going to look to the new guy coming in to look at your office. It's going to look dated and old. And he's going to, he's going to think you're, he's going to think you're way behind the

[00:33:39] times. And you know, there's, and that's, that's, I say that because I've thought that when other people were buying like, oh my gosh, they've got no technology and all this stuff. I'm like, yeah, but you got the technology and now it's old technology. It's weird.

[00:33:54] That's a weird thing. It's a really weird thing. And, and it's a little, it's almost a little creepy to, to think that, that, that like the, the decisions, these big, amazing, important decisions you made back in the day will be

[00:34:06] looked at and sort of like, eh, you know, later. It wasn't the, the, the technology decisions you made. Someone else is going to look at your practice and go, man, I wish he hadn't done that. Cause I don't really need that.

[00:34:18] Or I don't really want, or that's really old. I'm gonna have to upgrade that or whatever. You know, I think one of the big stresses of the, you know, the no smooth sailing changing

[00:34:25] landscape has been like the, the things we have that younger people don't, which is the option of taking all these shitty PPOs. Yeah. Cause that's something else that I looked at and this has come up, you know, when I was

[00:34:37] negotiating the possibility of selling or whatever, that that is something that came up and it's like, look, I've made it this long without taking. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? But I also understand that that's something you might have to fold to at some point, but

[00:34:50] you and I are kind of in this weird little nook where we have people who have paid us the difference in all of that for all of these years. And, and they understand the difference because we've also had the people who left, right? Cause they wanted the cheaper.

[00:35:05] Yeah. And then they come back cause they're like, wait a minute. I see the difference here. So we're kind of in this little sweet spot, but I think that spot, you know, that, that little nook we're in. It is.

[00:35:14] But the other end of it is I know people around me that have gone non-par with, with any insurance. And these are sometimes some of these people, I'm a little surprised to hear about it.

[00:35:24] And the reality is, is that's like, that's always been sold to us as that's, that's the end all. And that's where, where everyone wants to be. And I'm interested in how they're doing. I'm, I'm, I'm standing back. I'm standing back to kind of see what happens.

[00:35:39] I mean, they made the move and good for them. I hope it works out awesome. I'd love to hear how it goes, but. I know I have been, I have read a consultant that we both know talking about clients who have done that and quickly undone it. Yeah.

[00:35:51] I do too. You know, because it, it can be a thing where everyone starts bailing and you're like, Oh, wait a minute. This might not have been a great idea. I feel like the time, do you remember?

[00:35:59] So there used to be a company and you can bleep this out if it's not okay, but there used to be a company called drop the PPO. And, and they are now called unlock the PPO because they had to change too. Yeah.

[00:36:13] You know, like, because that dropping the PPO is not as easy as maybe they, it once was or that sweet spot is, has dried up. And so now we need to figure out how to live with what we have.

[00:36:24] And those are the things that are out there and how do we navigate that? Well, okay. So one of the things that you and I are sort of laughing about the smooth sailing thing.

[00:36:33] When I bought my practice in 1998, it was a, I'm in Saginaw and I mean, you've always practiced in, in, in an area where there's a lot of GM employees, a lot of GM insurance. Okay. So I didn't have to be particularly great at sales.

[00:36:53] I didn't have to pitch much because you know what, if they needed a crown, it was covered at 90%. So they're walking out of your office, they're walking out of your office with a crown and they've paid 10% of whatever the fee was that was covered.

[00:37:06] And at the time, so, so there were a lot of times, I mean, and it's been not that long since a thousand dollars was a regular fee for a crown around here. So they were walking out, you know, paying out of pocket less than a hundred bucks for

[00:37:19] a new crown. So, you know what you didn't have to do? You didn't have to push hard to get them to do that. And particularly when in their case, they've had giant fillings for a thousand years and they're breaking down and a crown would be the right solution.

[00:37:30] They would let you do that. That was, that was my reality for the first 10 years of practice. Like it was just, it was not hard to get people to do care, decent care.

[00:37:41] Now their limit was such that I remember when I started, they could do three crowns a year and now they can do like a crown a year on the same, because that hasn't gone up. There are still coverages.

[00:37:52] I still have GM retirees that have 90% on a crown, but it's one crown. This next one crown if I'm lucky. Yeah. I mean, so like, you know, the smooth sailing aspect is everyone thinks that smooth sailing is coming up and, and it never, you never really get there.

[00:38:10] No, because the landscape has changed. So now you're smooth sailing in different waters. Yeah. We're moving the goalposts too, because what's smooth sailing that you're like, in an inch, what probably what's worth looking at is, is, you know,

[00:38:22] what did smooth sailing look like back in 1998 after I bought the practice versus what a smooth, what would smooth sailing look like now? Very different, I'm sure. And I think even if you're younger and you don't own a practice and you're new,

[00:38:34] understand that that the goalpost is probably always going to move on you. And that's the reason why there will never really be smooth sailing, you know, high-class problems are good. Like in other words, having a monthly nut to pay for your practice versus not having

[00:38:51] a monthly nut to pay for your practice. That's pretty cool. In fact, when I've paid loans off like that, I should be having a big party and I never do. It's just like, oh, I got the piece of paper. I'm like, well, that one won't be coming on.

[00:39:01] Exactly. That's the celebration. I mean, that's what smooth sailing potentially looked like back when I bought the place. Right. You know? And it wasn't, it's not that smooth. It's, you know, it's just life, right? It's very funny.

[00:39:12] No, and I remember, because I paid off my practice finally after however many years, a couple of years ago. And I remember being like, yay, I paid off my practice. And I don't, it was one of our secret order friends said, oh,

[00:39:22] you won't ever see any of that money. Yeah. Yeah. And he was so right. Well, it's kind of true. You really think that that money now it's just going to be yours? Now I'll put that money towards the, exactly.

[00:39:32] No, the expenses always rise to whatever you've got in the account. Exactly. Exactly. That is so funny. It's so true. It's so true. And you bought a building. It was so funny.

[00:39:42] I knew when he said it, it would be true, but I just wanted that one little moment. No, I know. I paid it off. I know. And I, there's a lot of, there's a lot of like, okay.

[00:39:50] So I, 2028 is when my youngest son graduates from high school allegedly. You know, I, so long as they don't go to prison, I'm assuming that that'll probably work out. But 2020 is also the year that I pay my building off, my office building off and my house off.

[00:40:07] And my house off. So all, all those things will be paid off right around the time. But interesting that then Jacob starts college. Interesting how there's always something, right? There you go. You're never going to see it die. Exactly.

[00:40:20] And I thought to myself, well, we'll do a lot of really good things. Then I'm like, nah, probably not. I'll probably feel just about the same no matter what. Oh yeah, no, no you won't. You'll just pay for more bills. There will be no smooth sailing.

[00:40:30] There will be no smooth sailing. That's right. It's, it is, it is what it is. That's very true. Um, that's, that's really funny. We were going to talk about something else. And we probably shouldn't, we've been going for a while.

[00:40:41] So maybe we should, we'll do another episode sometime on what we were, cause that was a really good thing to talk about too. It was a really good thing to talk about. So, um, that was, but just, I guess the, the, to wrap it up, uh, if you,

[00:40:54] if you ever find yourself thinking, well, once X is done, then I've got it made. It's okay too, to think that by the way, cause I think, I think we all think that way, right? We need to think that. It is, that is a survival instinct.

[00:41:09] That's what we do. It's okay. But understand that if you run out of actual problems, you'll find more problems. There's more problems. There's more things that are going to occupy your time that you wish you.

[00:41:23] So smooth sailing doesn't, it isn't a real thing in life and in dentistry and in practice ownership and all that stuff, that concept. And I have to tell you, like I say, I don't think I can say you should never think that concept.

[00:41:37] We have to think that concept. We have to, like I said, I think that there's some level of that that keeps us going, but also take in that there's actually some lessons in there about our ideas about life,

[00:41:49] how we react to things, how seriously we take things, um, how deeply we dive into the emotions of a situation. We can learn a lot by actually dealing with the reality of knowing that nothing lasts forever. Yeah.

[00:42:04] But a lot of us, if you can't handle that right then just enjoy the smooth sailing. Yeah. Yeah. If you get some, it won't last long. No. It'll come back. This too shall pass. Exactly. Dawn, this was fantastic. I appreciate it.

[00:42:20] It was, it was all I hoped it would be. And we'll do another episode where we can, we can delve into our other topics that we had come into. So very good. All right. Thank you. We'll talk to you again soon. All right. Bye, Ellen. Bye-bye.